Daniel 12:2 Who's sleeping in the dust?

[book_wirm]

firefromheaven,

I hate to belabor this topic and you are remiss to define what value is in it (if we go to be with Lord, wonderful....if we sleep, we will be unaware....). What then is your point? That we don't understand all things perfectly? I don't think anyone denies that. But I must admit I don't think we misunderstand this topic. I see no discrepancy in saying that while the spirit is immediately released to paradise or torment, the body can rightly be said to "sleep" in the grave, awaiting the day of the resurrection.

As to Lazarus: I see no reason why the Lazarus in paradise should be considered the same Lazarus Jesus raises. One was a beggar...the other had sisters with a house and food to feed Jesus when he came. To add to this, the implication is made in the story of the Lazarus in paradise that he will not be sent back to the living. Just some thoughts.

As to Saul and Samuel: You seem to assume that Samuel stood before Saul in a fleshly form. Why do you think so? As the passage reads Saul "saw" nothing. He had to ask the woman what she "saw". Having explained it to him he "perceived" it was Samuel. It seems apparent since they had known eachother that if Saul had seen Samuel in the flesh he would have recognized him. That they spoke to eachother says little to me also as Saul had gone to a medium...that's what they do.

I don't dislike this topic, nor do I hold any ill will toward you, brother, but your manner is somewhat less than charitable. Why do you repeatedly refer to us as "you guys" in your last reply? Are you not one of us? Are Christians separated from eachother by differences in understanding? Are we not one body? Or are you over us? Perhaps the tone of this thread could use some readjustment.

In Christ,

Eric

[Guest firefromheaven]

firefromheaven,

I hate to belabor this topic and you are remiss to define what value is in it (if we go to be with Lord, wonderful....if we sleep, we will be unaware....). What then is your point? That we don't understand all things perfectly? I don't think anyone denies that. But I must admit I don't think we misunderstand this topic. I see no discrepancy in saying that while the spirit is immediately released to paradise or torment, the body can rightly be said to "sleep" in the grave, awaiting the day of the resurrection.

As to Lazarus: I see no reason why the Lazarus in paradise should be considered the same Lazarus Jesus raises. One was a beggar...the other had sisters with a house and food to feed Jesus when he came. To add to this, the implication is made in the story of the Lazarus in paradise that he will not be sent back to the living. Just some thoughts.

As to Saul and Samuel: You seem to assume that Samuel stood before Saul in a fleshly form. Why do you think so? As the passage reads Saul "saw" nothing. He had to ask the woman what she "saw". Having explained it to him he "perceived" it was Samuel. It seems apparent since they had known eachother that if Saul had seen Samuel in the flesh he would have recognized him. That they spoke to eachother says little to me also as Saul had gone to a medium...that's what they do.

I don't dislike this topic, nor do I hold any ill will toward you, brother, but your manner is somewhat less than charitable. Why do you repeatedly refer to us as "you guys" in your last reply? Are you not one of us? Are Christians separated from eachother by differences in understanding? Are we not one body? Or are you over us? Perhaps the tone of this thread could use some readjustment.

In Christ,

Eric

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think you guys/Worthy Ministries could use some adjustment. I noticed several times that when someone here disagrees with what you/Worthy Ministries believes ,especially in the chat room that they are attacked,kicked out,banned,etc... This is not the only topic that it happens in. I would handle each one at a time but I'm pretty sure it wont happen because of the the way it's been handled in the past/ I'll probably be kicked out,attacked,banned,etc... I haven't been banned yet. lol but have been attacked,and kicked out of the chat room for disagreeing with those in charge. You don't have to like the way a message is delivered. Listen to the message and don't stone the prophets,listen to the message,don't look at the vessle,you don't have to like the way it sounds,listen to the message.

[JesusisGod2]

It appears that the only ones that go straight to be with the Lord are those who were killed for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. But not everyone gets that blessing. If they did it would say so.

It doesn't say so because there was no need to say so.

Believe what you want, Fire.

It's not going to affect anyone's salvation.

All that matters is Jesus!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Amen Neb!!!!!!

[Guest firefromheaven]

It appears that the only ones that go straight to be with the Lord are those who were killed for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. But not everyone gets that blessing. If they did it would say so.

It doesn't say so because there was no need to say so.

Believe what you want, Fire.

It's not going to affect anyone's salvation.

All that matters is Jesus!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Amen Neb!!!!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You obviously didn't read my post up above in responce.

Like Paul said any man that thinketh he knows anything knoweth nothing as he ought. I claim to know nothing but Jesus Christ and him crucified. Now that's something to say amen about.That is what will affect someones salvation. It's who you know not always what you know.

[nebula]

I didn't say it was going to affect anyones salvation. But I think you can safely say that you guys don't know all the truth. Neither do I. I pointed out there is discrepency in the belief or doctrine ,whatever you want to call it: "We believe that immediately upon death, the soul of the believer is absent from the body, and present with the Lord."  when I've shown clearly through several different verses that people do sleep until the last trump and that Samuel was brought up from the grave by the witch at endor. Plus that verse one person pointed out in revelations that says there were saints in heaven that were there because they were killed but that it don't mention any others. Not that there weren't any others. What I'm saying is you guys are standing on a belief that there obviously more then one answer to it. Some go straight to the Lord,some sleep,some will meet him in the air that are left when he returns. I believe it's up to the Lord who does what. He's got all authority and soveriegnty.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Fire -

I don't know what is going on with you.

I don't know what is going on with me, either. I just know right now is not the best time to tell me look forward to lying comotose 'till the end of the age!

If I don't meet Jesus when I die, what's the point to dying?

That's another story, though.

But have you considered the posibility that the term "sleep" is an expression they used back then?

[JesusisGod2]

Take it easy Fire, I was only responding to Nebs comment that all that matters is Jesus.

As far as your views on who is sleeping and who is with the Lord presently, I am one who also believes that it is our sinful body or soul that sleeps, but our spirit is with the Lord. But I am open to your views

It is our spirit that died in the garden and this is also what is born again and of course the body followed but years later. and it is our soul that is in need of redemption. Keep in mind death simply means seperation from God.

There is no redemable value in the flesh, it is our soul that is in need of redemption and it appears that is resurrected.

It appears that this is what is said in Rev 20

Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

It appears that John is equating the resurrection of what we call the body with the soul, and when the soul is resurrected it will be joined with our spirit and be given a new body.

I agree that this subject of resurrection and who sleeps or what sleeps is not as clear cut as I once thought, but I do believe that the spirit is very much awake whether in paradise with our Lord or in the torments of hell.

John 23:42 And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!"

43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

Here Jesus said to the thief on the cross, that he would be with Jesus in paradise that very day.

Now we know that he didnt join Jesus that day in his body, for no one has been ressurected at this point, (at least that did not die again) including Jesus and of course it refers to the ressurection in Rev 20 as being the 1st ressurection (excluding that of Jesus, which of course already happened, He being the 1st fruit).

It appears that the only ones that go straight to be with the Lord are those who were killed for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. But not everyone gets that blessing. If they did it would say so.

This is not true of the thief.

Again it is not a real clear cut subject on what sleeps, at least not to me. But I think it is pretty clear cut that the spirit will be very much awake, whether with Jesus or in torment.

In Jesus

Kevin

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

Fire,

I think you guys/Worthy Ministries could use some adjustment. I noticed several times that when someone here disagrees with what you/Worthy Ministries believes ,especially in the chat room that they are attacked,kicked out,banned,etc... This is not the only topic that it happens in. I would handle each one at a time but I'm pretty sure it wont happen because of the the way it's been handled in the past/ I'll probably be kicked out,attacked,banned,etc... I haven't been banned yet. lol but have been attacked,and kicked out of the chat room for disagreeing with those in charge. You don't have to like the way a message is delivered. Listen to the message and don't stone the prophets,listen to the message,don't look at the vessle,you don't have to like the way it sounds,listen to the message.

I must tell you that our primary goal here is the Edification of the Body of believers for the Great Commission. By the building up of the Body the message is spread. Upon solid Rock.

As for getting booted from Chat? I know the Moderators there and they do not boot for any small reason. You must have become disruptive with your preaching of Soul Sleep? That is a real time environment where people are being Saved. Pushing Doctrinal beliefs there to the extreme interferes with the Great Commission. The main message is that we are lost without Christ Jesus. We are incapable of meeting the heavy demands of God's Righteousness and unable to obtain Salvation on our own. That message is preached along with the Good News that Christ Jesus met that need for us. Both here and over at Chat. The difference at Chat is in the real time environment. The words typed appear and disappear quickly. Without much thought or ability to examine or counter with the Living Word of God. Here on this side there is much more time to express one's beliefs and match it to the Word of God. Thus enabling an environment for people to examine these beliefs against the Truth of God's Word.

Which is exactly what these Saint's are doing here with you. However you still seem a little testy? Even when approached with the Living Word of God on the subject.

Now I want you to examine this section of our Statement of Faith;

We believe that immediately upon death, the soul of the believer is absent from the body, and present with the Lord.

This is what we believe here according to the Whole Word of God. This is what every Moderator and every Watchman has read and actually agree's with. Why would we not defend the Word of God as we believe it by Faith?

You say to listen to every message that is said. That we do not even have to like the way it sounds? Rather just open our ears and receive it. If I read you correctly?

Well we have listened to the message. However we are commanded to examine it in light of the Word of God.Prior to receiving it. Which has been done here.

You are pushing something here that the Ministry doesn't agree with and in light of the Word of God is false. So some here have attempted to correct you in Love and in Truth. Now you are angry. Saying we haven't received the message. When in Truth we have received the Truth and are not to depart from it.

Peace,

Dave

Worthy Servant

[refugepsa91]

Verily, verily, I say unto you, if aman keep my saying, he shall never see death.

John 8:51

For this God is our God for ever and ever: he will be our guide even unto death.

Psalm 48:14

But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall recieve me.

Psalm 49:15

I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.

Hosea 13:14

That whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:15

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

John 11: 25-26

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Romans 8:11

Our bodies are in the grave...but our soul is with Him...we will get new bodies when the time comes...

I'm looking but cannot find it...I believe it is in Job...where he speaks of worms eathing his body but yet shall he see the Lord?

Just my two cents....

Love and Blessings,

Angel

[dwinkjr]

The story about the witch of Endor Samuel was not brought from heaven but from sleep. He was in the grave. Do you think if he was in heaven that witch could bring him from heaven? I don't think so.

No grave means abrahams Bosom

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

1Sa 28:11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.

1Sa 28:14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

1Sa 28:15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

Those verses there says he came up and Samuel himself asked him why he was disquieted and brought up. Hmmm I thought we all went to heaven. I guess you're(you all) going to say now that that was a devil in disguise. lol

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So you think the OT saints were treated the same way at death as those after Christ's resurrection?

When we die we are taken to heaven in the Spirit, to dwell with the Lord until his Second coming, at that time when the Church is raptured our bodies are taken from the ground and recreated as glorified bodies, and the church on earth will meet us in the clouds.

2 Corinthians 5:8

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

I think you guys/Worthy Ministries could use some adjustment. I noticed several times that when someone here disagrees with what you/Worthy Ministries believes ,especially in the chat room that they are attacked,kicked out,banned,etc... This is not the only topic that it happens in. I would handle each one at a time but I'm pretty sure it wont happen because of the the way it's been handled in the past/ I'll probably be kicked out,attacked,banned,etc... I haven't been banned yet. lol but have been attacked,and kicked out of the chat room for disagreeing with those in charge. You don't have to like the way a message is delivered. Listen to the message and don't stone the prophets,listen to the message,don't look at the vessle,you don't have to like the way it sounds,listen to the message.

Your tone here speaks volumes imo, you try to belittle the ministry because you are not getting the reaction you want from your posts. Do we ban those with differing view points? No.. Do we ban those with bad attitudes who destroy the enviroment in which we are to fellowship? you better believe it. Do we ban those who are pushing their unbiblical beliefs unto others? sure do.. If you are here to converse, fellowship, and grow within this Christian family, you will be welcomed with open arms, if you come in here looking to stir things up and cause strife, you will not make it far.

Like Paul said any man that thinketh he knows anything knoweth nothing as he ought. I claim to know nothing but Jesus Christ and him crucified. Now that's something to say amen about.That is what will affect someones salvation. It's who you know not always what you know.

Again the tone of this post is defensive at best, why such an aggressive means of trying to make your point? My suggestion is that you pray before you post, then reread your posts before clicking submit, you may find that many of these posts never make it to the boards

God Bless,

Dave

[Guest firefromheaven]

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Then explain where the dead are and if as you say they are in heaven with God why do they need to rise if they have already risen?