Old Timer Posted May 12, 2005 Group: Soapbox - Members Followers: 2 Topic Count: 68 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 962 Content Per Day: 0.13 Reputation: 52 Days Won: 1 Joined: 05/18/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/11/1932 Share Posted May 12, 2005 Good try, JesusIsGod2, but (there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JesusisGod2 Posted May 13, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,065 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 128 Days Won: 1 Joined: 05/29/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/03/1958 Share Posted May 13, 2005 Good try, JesusIsGod2, but (there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Timer Posted May 13, 2005 Group: Soapbox - Members Followers: 2 Topic Count: 68 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 962 Content Per Day: 0.13 Reputation: 52 Days Won: 1 Joined: 05/18/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/11/1932 Share Posted May 13, 2005 In my previous post I used the term pre-millennium when I meant pre-tribulation. Thanks for ignoring my error but understanding what I was saying. No debate in this thread on pre mid or post-trib. I understand your arguments. If you are correct, then those verses you mentioned in Rev. do show the saints in heaven conscious and active. If you come up with any others from other books I would be interested is seeing them. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JesusisGod2 Posted May 13, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,065 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 128 Days Won: 1 Joined: 05/29/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/03/1958 Share Posted May 13, 2005 In my previous post I used the term pre-millennium when I meant pre-tribulation. Thanks for ignoring my error but understanding what I was saying. No debate in this thread on pre mid or post-trib. I understand your arguments. If you are correct, then those verses you mentioned in Rev. do show the saints in heaven conscious and active. If you come up with any others from other books I would be interested is seeing them. Thanks. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Praise the Lord Old Timer!! I would also like to hear your views that say otherwise, I could be toatally wrong. I will admit that I have heard pretty good arguements for both sides of the issue. This has definately got me interested in looking into it more. God bless you brother, Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Timer Posted May 13, 2005 Group: Soapbox - Members Followers: 2 Topic Count: 68 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 962 Content Per Day: 0.13 Reputation: 52 Days Won: 1 Joined: 05/18/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/11/1932 Share Posted May 13, 2005 JIG2, reading through the NT and listening to it on an MP3 player I noticed how frequently the writers spoke of the resurrection of the dead, the return of Christ, and the final day. I noticed there was very little of Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarolineS Posted May 13, 2005 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 414 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/15/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted May 13, 2005 People do not go either to heaven or hell at death. They go to their graves to await the resurrection day. "David...is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day." "For David is not ascended into the heavens." Acts 2:29,34. "If I wait, the grave is mine house." Job 17:13. "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:20. "Every living soul died in the sea." Rev. 16:3 "The dead praise not the Lord." Psalm 115:17. "So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep." "His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them." Job14:12,21. "Neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun." Ecclesiastes 9:6. This doctirne of immortality of the soul comes from Satan. Satan said: "And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die." Genesis 3:4. The Lord says: "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:20. Why is this doctrine so important in the last days???? It is one of the cornerstones of the devil's kingdom. He has worked powerful miracles down through the ages through people who claim to receive their power from the spirits of the dead. In the end-time Satan will again use sorcery--as he did in Daniel's day--to deceive the world. Sorcery is a supernatural agency that claims to receive its power and wisdom from the spirits of the dead. Posing as godly loved ones who have died, Bible prophets, or even the apostles or disciples of Christ, Satan and his angels will deceive billions. Those who believe the dead are alive, in any form, will most assuredly be deceived. In Christ, CarolineS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthitjah Posted May 14, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 1,285 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 17,917 Content Per Day: 2.26 Reputation: 355 Days Won: 19 Joined: 10/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted May 14, 2005 Grace to you, Soul sleep is not Biblical at all. We have very clearly the Word of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ on this; Lu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthitjah Posted May 14, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 1,285 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 17,917 Content Per Day: 2.26 Reputation: 355 Days Won: 19 Joined: 10/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted May 14, 2005 (edited) Grace to you, I also want to answer the question raised by Genesis. Ge Edited May 14, 2005 by Dr. Luke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarolineS Posted May 14, 2005 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 414 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/15/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted May 14, 2005 Dr. Luke, You bring up a good example in the story of Lazarus. But I think you are missing the point in verse 24. John 11:23 Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again." Joh 11:24 Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day." We can see here what the early church and the followers of Jesus believed before the pagan doctrine of immortality of the soul was introduced into the Church of Rome. Do you really think that Lazarus was in the spirit form in heaven enjoying paradise and Jesus yanked him back to earth? Is that what a good friend would do to his friend? So if you believe that a spirit goes to heaven or hell immediately at death, do you really believe God would sentence people to hell without a judgement first? What kind of a God would do such a cruel thing? If righteous people are rewarded as soon as they die, why does Jesus state "I am coming and my reward is with me." ? You also mention the Transfiguration. The Transfiguration is a miniature of the second coming of Chirst. You have Jesus shining in all His glory. On one side of Him is Elijah, who was raptured to heaven in a chariot of fire. On His other side you have Moses. Moses died and was waiting in the grave for the resurrection. We see in Jude verse 9 that Moses' body was taken to heaven by Michael the archangel after disputing with Satan about the body of Moses. Jesus was giving the disciples and us a preview of His second coming. Elijah represents those that will be raptured; Moses represents those who have gone to sleep and will be resurrected. 1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed--in a moment, in the twinking of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. In Chirst, CarolineS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthitjah Posted May 15, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 1,285 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 17,917 Content Per Day: 2.26 Reputation: 355 Days Won: 19 Joined: 10/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted May 15, 2005 Grace to you, Moseses body was not transported into heaven. De Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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