Differentiating Will and Desire

[WordSword]

Our will and desire, and even God’s will and desire do not always coincide. For example, it’s His desire that “all men be saved,” for He desires not “that any should perish” (1Ti 2:4: 2Pe 3:9). Yet, His will is that “he that believeth not shall be damned” (Mark 16:16).

Though the believer’s will is not to sin, this is an impossibility, for the desire of our “old man” manifests itself in our thoughts, feelings and actions. The freedom we have in Christ from the “dominion” of our sin nature (Rom 6:14) lies within its inability to cause us to “sin willfully” (Heb 10:26), unlike the unregenerate whose will is to sin, being void of “His seed” (e.g. new nature – 1 John 3:9). So, for the regenerate the issue is not sinning or not—but in the will never to sin! The “will” is the individual’s choice and I believe is the primary determinate concerning guilt. Living a life of intentionally willing to do wrong manifests the absence of rebirth, because God is always working in those reborn—“to will and to do of His good pleasure” (Phil 2:13).

This will not to sin drives from the Spirit via the “new man” (nature of Christ – Col 3:10), which nature provides for us to be “partakers of the (Christ’s) divine nature” (2 Pet 1:4). One commentator on 1 John 3:9 writes that it’s in our sin nature that we sin, and that we in our new nature cannot sin, which I believe concurs with Romans 7:17, 20. This manifests ownership of personal sin, which keeps us aware of being God-dependent concerning freedom from its guilt and dominion.

Scripture clearly supports that the “old man” (sin nature) still resides in the regenerate (reborn), which understandably results in an inquiry “Why?” One can only suppose with uncertainty (since it’s not scripturally clear here), that it’s the same reason for its initial presence, which in my opinion could be for the purpose of being God-dependent concerning its resolution, seeing this Adamic nature affects the whole man; which often taints our personal understanding (resulting in inaccuracy) concerning spiritual things of the Scriptures, requiring the “mind of the Christ” for understanding (via the Spirit’s teaching).

NC

[warrior12]

If our old man is crucified with him then that  means it does not live again.  

The distinguishing factor is between the spirit and the flesh.  The flesh still has carnal desires, while the spirit pleases the Lord.   

When we are born again, we are now a spiritual man, with knowledge of the spiritual world as revealed in the bible and as Jesus said why he spoke in parables.

Romans 6 King James Version (KJV)

⁶ Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

⁷ For he that is dead is freed from sin.

 

Galatians 5 King James Version (KJV)

¹⁶ This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

¹⁷ For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

¹⁸ But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

¹⁹ Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

[WordSword]

3 hours ago, naominash said:

So when true believers sin, you're saying, that doesn't come from our true desire, but from a bad choice in our will... right? That would make sense, considering you said will and desire don't always coincide. 

Hi Nao, and thanks for your reply and comment! That's pretty much the same as I'm sharing. I try to identify that our "will" is what overrides everything in our choices, i.e. regardless of ignorantly and unwillingly making wrong choices, our will is always to please God. To relate to your comment I would say bad choices are not from our will but from our desires. 

[WordSword]

13 hours ago, naominash said:

So, the old man is the source of the sin we still do. What no one can agree on is how to weaken the old man.

Good probing! The "old man" is the sin nature of man and cannot be affected by man. Only the Spirit of God can oppose it in us (Gal 5:17) so that we can have freedom from its "reign" and "dominion" (Rom 6:12, 14). But it remains in the state is has been in and cannot be changed (Rom 8:7), and at the same time the believer is no longer in it (Rom 8:7), though it is in us.

[WordSword]

12 hours ago, warrior12 said:

If our old man is crucified with him then that  means it does not live again.  

The distinguishing factor is between the spirit and the flesh.  The flesh still has carnal desires, while the spirit pleases the Lord.   

Hi War12! Thanks for your reply and comments! It's my understanding that the "old man" (sin nature) being crucified means that it is only being restrained, not eradicated or killed. We are dead to it (Rom 6:2, 11) but it is not dead to us and ever opposes us but to no avail because the believer's death in Christ to it separates him from its guilt (Rom 8:1) and "dominion" (Rom 6:14), not its presence, not its effects (Rom 7:14-25).

Concerning the "flesh," in the NT it is (nearly always) in reference to the sin nature (old man). The body (flesh and bone) itself of a believer is holy and is the temple of God (1 Cor 6:19). The sin is in the nature, not the body.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G4561&t=KJV  "Flesh," definition IV in Strong's Greek dictionary.

 

God bless!

[Not me]

If you wouldn’t mind me interjecting;

Being made free from sin or the “old man” or sin nature can only be done by the death of the individual that would be freed from their sin nature. It is seeing that when “Christ died we died” than, after this is seen, than we are to “reckon ourselfs dead” It is seeing this, that will free a believer from their sinful nature. 

Much love in Christ, Not me 

Edited September 26, 2018 by Not me

[JohnD]

Just from a general thought... both stem from one's personal perspective as an individual.

Perfect love (another way of saying total selflessness) sometimes appears as though one has

the difference mentioned in the OP when in fact (at least on occasion) it's still the same thing...

Just saying...

[warrior12]

9 hours ago, WordSword said:

Hi War12! Thanks for your reply and comments! It's my understanding that the "old man" (sin nature) being crucified means that it is only being restrained, not eradicated or killed. We are dead to it (Rom 6:2, 11) but it is not dead to us and ever opposes us but to no avail because the believer's death in Christ to it separates him from its guilt (Rom 8:1) and "dominion" (Rom 6:14), not its presence, not its effects (Rom 7:14-25).

Concerning the "flesh," in the NT it is (nearly always) in reference to the sin nature (old man). The body (flesh and bone) itself of a believer is holy and is the temple of God (1 Cor 6:19). The sin is in the nature, not the body.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G4561&t=KJV  "Flesh," definition IV in Strong's Greek dictionary.

 

God bless!

I would think and hope the born again christian does not practice or harbor deliberate sin.  He strives to obey the will of God and the teachings of the scripture.  There may be some things that he can see immediate removal or deletion that he found very difficult to do in the past, no matter how hard he had tried.  Now, we are not perfected in the flesh, but in the redeemed stated we are seen as saints by the Lord.  The world the flesh and the devil is still hindrances that can come to test, cause adversities, strife ect, so we have that struggle to wage a war that the Christian is called or has been enlisted to take part in.  Sanctification is at work in the believer to further his progress as being in the likeness of the Lord.  It is a long road, and tough.    

 The spiritual man would seek after the things above, hence the war.  Satan sets his schemes and plots to entice and deceive even the believer.  So yes, the carrot is always dangled before man, more so the believer as Satan knows he is not of his household as he once was and wants him back.    

Most Christian are only concerned with the tangible man and compares what takes place there and tries to remedy his fleshy actions.  Yes, we have to bring our bodies under control and be responsible, but we have to remind ourselves at all times that we are a new creation in Christ and our righteousness is only attainable through Christ.

Here, it is spirit vs the flesh

Romans 8 King James Version (KJV)

¹⁰ And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

 ¹³ For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

[WordSword]

8 hours ago, Not me said:

If you wouldn’t mind me interjecting;

Being made free from sin or the “old man” or sin nature can only be done by the death of the individual that would be freed from their sin nature. It is seeing that when “Christ died we died” than, after this is seen, than we are to “reckon ourselfs dead” It is seeing this, that will free a believer from their sinful nature. 

Much love in Christ, Not me 

Amen, and I agree, but we need to define the meaning of "free from sin" (Rom 6:8, 22; 8:2). We should know that it's not freedom from the presence and effects of sin, for its seat (old man) yet resides in the believer. This leaves me with the understanding that this freedom in Christ from sin and the sin nature (Adamic nature) can be only related to sin's inability to "reign" and have "dominion" over the believer (Rom 6:12, 14). The old man can no longer cause us to willfully sin, i.e. Hebrews 10:26 doesn't say "if we sin," but "if we sin willfully."

If the sin nature (old man) can cause us to "sin willfully" (Heb 10:26), then it has dominion and will reign, but this can only be true concerning the unregenerate, for the believer through the "work" of God (Phil 2:13) no longer wills to sin. Thus, the issue is not in the sinning but in whether or not the soul wills to sin or not. 

I believe this is exemplified in Paul's use of the word "captivity" in Romans 7:23, in that we know we will sin but it's as a captive against his will; and the type and frequency of these sins are not the same as those which we committed in an unregenerate state. As we know, when a soul has no power of Christ's Cross to restrain the old man (Rom 6:6) the sins committed are in a greater extreme evil and frequency, unlike those of the regenerate which are progressively less extreme and frequency, due to the new nature in the hands of the Spirit.

Blessings!

[WordSword]

7 hours ago, JohnD said:

Just from a general thought... both stem from one's personal perspective as an individual.

Perfect love (another way of saying total selflessness) sometimes appears as though one has

the difference mentioned in the OP when in fact (at least on occasion) it's still the same thing...

Just saying...

True, the fruit of the Spirit has often been merely mimicked (counterfeit) by false professors! (if that's what you mean)

Blessings!