The two witness' in Rev

[NITE OWL]

Are the two witness' in Rev. mentioned in any other books of the New Testament?

[Gerioke]

Two or three witnesses is mentioned all through the NT but doesn't mention anyone in particular

[sheya joie]

Aw, man. I wrote a response to this, and the Internet ate it.

The two witnesses are in Revelation 11.

1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses , and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4 These are the two olive trees , and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

The phrase 'two olive trees' refers back to Zechariah 4:

2 And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:

3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.

.....

11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?

12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?

13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.

14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

I'm not sure what it all means - but I hope this is a help.

[Dad Ernie]

Are the two witness' in Rev. mentioned in any other books of  the New Testament?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Greetings Nite Owl,

I see the natural olive branch and the wild olive branch in Romans 11 as the "two witnesses". Throughout the NT, we see these two "groups" contrasted and even joined as in Eph 1-3. We also see them as the "light", or the "candlesticks". The Jews in the OT and the foundation of the NT are "light" and the Saints in the NT are "light". Nowhere in Rev 11 are the "two witnesses" referred to as TWO men as some might believe. But are referred to as "these men, or these prophets or these witnesses. Often in the Bible "groups" of people are referred to as "witnesses", i.e. Sodom and Gomorrah, et al.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[CarolineS]

Greetings,

I think we have to look at the two witnesses as representing something.

Throughout the Bible, the Word of God is often portrayed with a dual image.

The Ten Commandments were written on two tables of stone. The Word of God is also portrayed as a sword with two edges. Two lamps and two olive trees portray the two sacred divisions of the Bible. But the ultimate testimony of God's Word is Jesus: "In the volume of the book it is written of me" (Hebrews 10:7). The volume of the Book, the Bible, all points to Jesus, who is the combination of two natures, the human and the divine. Jesus is the Word made flesh.

When Jesus was transformed at the Mount of Transfiguration, two prominent individuals were present who were living symbols of the Word of God. Moses represents the law, and Elijah represents the prophets. Jesus says in Matthew 5:17, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill." Moses is the great lawgiver, and Elijah is the greatest of the Old Testament prophets.

Zechariah 4:11-14

Then I answered and said to him, "What are these two olive trees -- at the right of the lampstand and at its left?" And I further answered and said to him, "What are these two olive branches that drip into the receptacles of the two gold pipes from which the golden oil drains?" Then he answered me and said, "Do you not know what these are?" And I said, "No, my lord." So he said, "These are the two anointed ones, who stand beside the Lord of the whole earth."

So I think the two witnesses, Moses and Elijah, are living symbols of the Word of God.

Rev. 11:4. These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth.

We know that a lamp is a smybol for the Word of God. It also takes the olive oil of the Spirit to illuminate the lamp of God's Word.

I also do not believe that Moses and Elijah will literally come down to the earth again to preach, because the two witnesses, the Word, is smybolized by Moses and Elijah. These two men of God are in heaven with their glorified bodies, and the Bible doesn't tell us that He wants them to step down from heaven to be killed. Moses and Elijah will not be coming back to earth in this way.

In Christ,

CarolineS

[sheya joie]

John the Baptist came in the spirit and power of Elijah, so it could be that the two witnesses will have the spirit and power of Moses and Elijah. Notice this:

Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Fire and shutting up the heavens (ie, no rain) is what Elijah is famous for, while turning waters to blood and smiting the earth with plagues is what Moses is famous for. So that seems to indicate the spirit and power of these two men.

I have heard some say that, since neither Elijah nor Enoch ever died - both were translated or taken to heaven alive - that they will come down and be the two witnesses. I don't know about that. Any thoughts?

[CarolineS]

Revelation warns what will happen to those who would harm God's two witnesses, the Holy Bible. "If anyone wants to hurt them fire proceeds out of their mouths and devours their enemies." This happened in the experiences of both Elijah and Moses. Fire came down from heaven on the Egyptians as they pursued God's children and it consumed the sons of Aaron. It also consumed the soldiers when they challenged Elijah. In addition, "These have the power to shut up heaven so no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over water to turn them to blood." Did Elijah pray and the rain stopped? Did Moses pray and the water turned to blood? So again we see why God likens the two witnesses, His Word, to the ministry of Moses and Elijah.

Rev. 12:17 says, "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." The woman represents the church, and the dragon, the devil, wants to destroy her. The church in the last days has two outstanding characteristics: They "keep the commandments of God, and they have the testimony of Jesus." What is the testimony of Jesus? Revelation 19:10 explains, "The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

The law and the words of the prophets are selaed by the Holy Spirit in the mind and hearts of God's people. "And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption" (Ephesians 4:30). We must saturate ourselves with the law and the prophets, with the Word of God, especially in these last days.

In Christ,

CarolineS

[nebula]

If the Two Witnesses are two people, it wouldn't be the Lord's way to bring back Moses and Elijah.

Having two men who operated in the spirit and power of Moses and Elijah, like John the Baptist was in the spirit and power of Elijah, as another poster pointed out, would be more in line with the Lord's way.

However, the point DE brought up that the Two Witnesses do not have to be two people but could be two groups does have some merits to consider.

After all, to be considered "the two olive trees , and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth" is a hefty charge for two individuals.

[JesusisGod2]

I have been through this debate more than once and will only comment as to why I believe it will be two people and not two testaments or groups such as Christians and Jews who have converted to Christ as some in other debates have speculated.

Who it will be, I have no idea and will not speculate.

Rev 11:7-9

3 "And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."

They will be prophets and there will be two of them. "Clothed in sackcloth" typical dress of prophets in the old testament in particular. John the baptist was dressed in like manner.

4 These are the two olive trees and the two lamp stands that stand before the Lord of the earth.

Completely takes away the mystery of the candelsticks and olive trees as to who these two are. If you look the two candlesticks and two olive trees they add up to four and yet there are only two prophets.

They are symbolic of these two prophets.

5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire flows out of their mouth and devours their enemies; so if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this way.

They will have supernatural powers from God.

6 These have the power to shut up the sky, so that rain will not fall during the days of their prophesying; and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire.

This is why many speculate that the two will be Moses and Elijah. they performed these same feats when they walked the earth, however, I don't think this is the case or at least the scriptures aren't specific as to whom they will be and I don't want to speculate.

7 When they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them and kill them.

The beast would never be able to overcome and put to death the testimonies of our God, but he will be able to overcome these two prophets and kill them.

The church will face similar fates, but not all will be put to death, nor will all the Jews.

8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

This says that their bodies will lie in the street which shows they are human, they are not called groups or testaments

It specifically mentions bodies and street, not streets, of the great city. The great city being Jerusalem.

9 Those from the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will look at their dead bodies for three and a half days, and will not permit their dead bodies to be laid in a tomb.

Here again it refers to the dead bodies that they would not let be buried in a tomb.

If it were two testaments of God, there would be no death and need of burial. Nor does it mention two groups.

10 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and celebrate; and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.

Here they are called prophets and again it specifically mentions two of them, not two groups.

11 But after the three and a half days, the breath of life from God came into them, and they stood on their feet; and great fear fell upon those who were watching them.

The breath of life from God came back into them and they stood on their feet, again showing it is two actual people and not something symbolic.

Some try to always see something that has spiritual meaning to it when the literal meaning is right before ones eyes. I am not saying this is the case here. But in order to understand the spiritual applications, one must first look literally at what is being said.

I do feel however that the scriptures are pretty clear here as to the fact these will be two actual people, prophets in the streets of Jerusalem, perhaps trying to win the Nation of Israel back to their God, witnessing to the fact that Jesus is the Messiah

Which in itself is pretty amazing. If I am not mistaken, you cant do this today in Israel and this could be why people want them put to death.

Just my two cents.

In Jesus

Kevin

[Dad Ernie]

However, the point DE brought up that the Two Witnesses do not have to be two people but could be two groups does have some merits to consider.

Greetings,

Consider:

Rev 1:11-13 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. 12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; 13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

compare:

Revelation 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Before reaching for a definition outside of any book, we must first consider the scriptures within THAT book for interpretation purposes. As you can see, the 7 churches are the 7 candlesticks. This is not speaking of 7 people, but 7 groups of peoples. The same holds true with the Two Witnesses.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie