Romans 11 - the olive tree - slow and easy

[BibleStudent]

Pilgrim7,

Thank you. Your exposition is clear and correct. But count on it, Shiloh won't buy it. He has bought into an approach that won't let the Bible be a single book by a single author. Rather, he has to have an Israelite Bible (the OT), and a church Bible (the NT). Any links between them are declared to be simply "applications."

The Bible is a unified book. And, as we watch the progression from older to newer writings, the newer explains and expands the older. Shiloh can't allow this, because it causes "Israel" to acquire a NT title: the church. Why he is married to this view, I can't answer, but I've seen it dozens of times. The marriage is unshakeable. It is impervious to facts. And it draws one's attention away from the Savior. A pity.

Ted

[Pilgrim7]

Bible Student,

I have found that the Holy Spirit has to do the convincing. We are just to share the truth for all to see. The Holy Spirit will convince all who listen to Him. I wouldn't be too hard on Shiloh for I'm sure that we all have some things that we won't consider at this time. Sometimes the Spirit does His job quickly, and sometimes it takes much longer. Truth is it's own witness and His sheep hear his voice, although not all at the same time.

You know that the Apostles never knew that their writings would be included in the Scriptures. They were just teachers of the Old Testament, like you said explaining how Jesus magnified the law and made it Holy (Isa 42:21)

Most of the Christians don't understand that the whole Scripture is written to God's true children, who like Jacob, are overcomers. The name Israel was a Spiritual name given to Jacob because He wrestled with God and overcame. True Israel has always been those who overcome through the Spirit. When Paul counseled Timothy to preach the Scriptures, he was talking about the Old Testament, for the New Testament had not as yet been added to the Bible. The Old Testament Scriptures were able to lead them to Salvation in Christ.

2Tim 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned [them];

3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures (the Old Testament), which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

2Tim 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4:4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

The Remnant of Religious Israel, Spiritual Israel, accepted their Messiah, they received the New Covenant given to Israel and were the children of God who continued in the faith. Gentiles should be forever greatful that they are allowed to be adopted into true, Spiritual Israel and be partakers with them in the Gospel. The whole church in the beginning was composed of Israelites. It was not a Gentile movement, but a Jewish Movement, for salvation is of the Jews as Jesus told the woman at the well.

Like you, I belonged to many churches, but found that each one taught me lies. So I decided to put aside every thing that I had been taught and study the Scriptures for myself. I would have no preconceived ideas or beliefs. On each subject I would assemble all the Scriptures I could find on a subject, study them and ask the Spirit to lead me into the truth so I could obey it. Soon I found I could belong to no denominal church, for they taught so much error. I now fellowship in home churches which are also seeking all truth so that they can obey it, not just argue it.

God bless and keep you brother,

Dennis

Edited September 3, 2005 by Pilgrim7

[BibleStudent]

Dennis,

Amen.

Ted

[Old Timer]

May I suggest that those who have engaged extensively in this debate read a book by Renald E. Showers, There Really Is A Difference,

A Comparison of Covenant and Dispensational Theology.

Dr. Showers is a graduate of Philadelphia College of Bible, has a Bachelor of Arts in History from Wheaton College, a Master Of Theology in Church History from Dallas Theological Seminary and a Master of Theology from Grace Theological Seminary. He is a member of Delta Epsilon Chi and the Wheaton College Scholastic Honor Society.

[EricH]

May I suggest that those who have engaged extensively in this debate read a book by Renald E. Showers, There Really Is A Difference,

A Comparison of Covenant and Dispensational Theology.

Dr. Showers is a graduate of Philadelphia College of Bible, has a Bachelor of Arts in History from Wheaton College, a Master Of Theology in Church History from Dallas Theological Seminary and a Master of Theology from Grace Theological Seminary. He is a member of Delta Epsilon Chi and the Wheaton College Scholastic Honor Society.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Another good work in this area is Covenants of Promise bt TE McComiskey. He adressess the continuity and discontinuity between the testaments

[BibleStudent]

Let me add a title to the list. It is one I have found to be without peer.

The Christ of the Covenants by O. Palmer Robertson. Published by Presbyterian and Reformed.

Ted

[mrs]

I've been having some discussions with people who believe one or the other views of this thread.Reading through your posts has helped clarify things a lot.

Thanks

[BibleStudent]

You are most welcome. BTW, can you comment on which way the discussion led you to understand the question?

Ted

[Fiosh]

I'm curious..................what are the stats??

How many Messianic Jews are there a) in the U.S. b) in Israel c) in the world

How many non-Messianic Jews are there (same 3 parameters)

Thanks,

Fiosh