Torah Observant

[Guest Ahdiba]

I dont have a lot of time to answer -- I need to get off to work earlier than normal today. Oddly, I came to this site to chat, and i don't think I have moved off this thread! I need to remedy that!

Briefly. . .

Nebula, you are so fortunate. I tried to take asronomy as one of my sciences and dropped out of the class -- real early. At the beginning of the class, I realized that I absolutely could not differentiate the constelations, and I knew I was in trouble. My husband is real good at astronomy, making me jealous. Sometimes, we go camping and just lie back in our lounges, counting the "falling stars."

Catch a falling star and

Put it in your pocket,

Save it for a rainy day . . .

"So, do I understand correctly that you follow the Torah as your expression od love?"

Yep!

________________________________________________________

Shimshon --

First, on my #3, I was not saying anything you said was "blunt"; that word was referring to my own response to you.

Next, Hebrews 8:7 must be read in context with chapters 7 through 10, or it is bound to be misunderstood. The word covenant should not even be in verse 7, nor should it be in verse 13 or in 9:1. These verses are not about a covenant but about a priesthood.

Catch you later! (Is there a zooming icon???)

[Guest Ahdiba]

Shimshon --

I had written:

7. Why did the apostles, whom you say changed the Torah, or taught against Torah, or abolished Torah -- however you put it -- tell Sha'ul in Acts to do the mitzvot of the Nazarite vow, and to pay for the young men to do it as well, when this requires a sacrifice, the work he was to pay for at the Temple? Were they mistaken? Were the apostles and Sha'ul confused or just wishy-washy?

You wrote:

7. Wow Ahdiba, I never said those things. I do believe your carrying over some baggage from another debate. Regardless, The reason Shaul did these things was told by him in another place in his writtings.

You had written

We are no longer required to circumcise our children, we are no longer required to offer blood sacrifices, we are no longer required to do alot of things commanded before because they forshadowed the coming of Yeshua, and the light has come into the world. So as we fulfill the commands, God fulfills his promises, and when they are fulfilled they are at peace. Shalom...rest. We rest from our works and he rests from his. We exist in the accomplishment of the work of Yeshua.

Those requirements were part of the promise made to Yisrael in the land. But God scattered us to the four corners of the world. And so now Yeshua says to us, 'go to the Lost sheep of the house of Yisrael' and gather them, AND ALL WHO JOIN TO HER! Yisrael is no longer in the land, and no longer under the custodian of that covenant. We have grown in our discipline. We are being gathered home again, and just as all the times before, all who join us will be welcomed by Abba.

[Remnant]

i was just listening to what has been posted. I just had a question...You must understand this first. I am not trying to knock the Jewish religion or anything, but Jesus set the record straight. Do you remember Peter asked Jesus how many shall he forgive his brother, before do something. Jesus answered 70X7? 490 times. Jesus never said something that didnt have more to its actual meaning. The 490 years refers to the prophecy in Daniel 9, where God says that 70 weeks are determined or cut off for the nation. After that, they would let go.

I hope you all agree with that Jesus is both Lord and Savior.

The Lord told them as a nation (Israel) they were finished. He told them before He gave up his life. Christ the Lord

Notice:

Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Also, please note the discussion between Christ and Leaders of Jewish Nation of his time..

Joh 8:1 Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.

Joh 8:2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.

Joh 8:3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,

Joh 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Joh 8:13 The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.

Joh 8:14 Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.

Joh 8:15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.

Joh 8:16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.

Joh 8:17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.

Joh 8:18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

Joh 8:19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.

Joh 8:20 These words spake Jesus in the treasury, as he taught in the temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour was not yet come.

Joh 8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

Joh 8:22 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.

Joh 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Joh 8:25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.

Joh 8:26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.

Joh 8:27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.

Joh 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

Joh 8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

Joh 8:30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.

Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Joh 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Joh 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

Joh 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

Joh 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

Joh 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Joh 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

Joh 8:46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

Joh 8:47 He that is of God hearth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Joh 8:48 Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?

Joh 8:49 Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.

Joh 8:50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.

Joh 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

Joh 8:52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.

Joh 8:53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?

Joh 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:

Joh 8:55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Joh 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Joh 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Why is this lengthy dialogue recorded in the Bible between the leaders and Jesus?

Was Christ trying to tell the nation of Israel something?

I am not knocking Judaism, its the foundation of Christianity. I just want you to understand that God in the form of Jesus said the nation was finished. His death ended the Sanctuary services. On the day that Jesus died, the temple veil between the most holy and holy was split into two. For the first time the worshippers of God could look upon the Ark of Covenant. You know the place where the Shekina Glory between the Angels was. I know that its was forbidden to look upon it. The priests couldn't even touch it. They had Golden staffs that they had to carry it with and they had to do it practically without looking at the ark. I understand the sanctuary of the old... It points to the service and ministry of Christ. Understand this please.. I believe the Jews can be saved, but they must go the way of the gentile now. For the that is the new and living way for salvation. the Jews were given 490 years to repent. How did they do? They stoned Stephen sealing their fate as a nation. A new nation did arise. One in which there is no greek or jew.. Anyone can have salvation through Jesus. All the gentiles call Abraham blessed!

[visionary]

I am not knocking Judaism, its the foundation of Christianity.  I just want you to understand that God in the form of Jesus said the nation was finished.  His death ended the Sanctuary services.  On the day that Jesus died, the temple veil between the most holy and holy was split into two.  For the first time the worshippers of God could look upon the Ark of Covenant.  You know the place where the Shekina Glory between the Angels was.  I know that its was forbidden to look upon it.  The priests couldn't even touch it. They had Golden staffs that they had to carry it with and they had to do it practically without looking at the ark.  I understand the sanctuary of the old... It points to the service and ministry of Christ.  Understand this please.. I believe the Jews can be saved, but they must go the way of the gentile now.  For the that is the new and living way for salvation.  the Jews were given 490 years to repent.  How did they do?  They stoned Stephen sealing their fate as a nation.  A new nation did arise.  One in which there is no greek or jew.. Anyone can have salvation through Jesus.  All the gentiles call Abraham blessed!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Then there is more prophecies that you must take into consideration.

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

The time of the gentiles is over. From the time that Israel became a nation again, which is a miracle only God could have done, Israel will again play a significant role in the endtime events.

As far as understandin Christ and the ministry in the sanctuary of old, there is more. Have you ever watched a shadow show, well the feasts of God are that, but the real action is behind the curtain and the body is Christ. Just as Yeshua fulfilled the spring time feasts, so also he will fulfill the fall feast before His second coming. As it is in heaven, so shall it be upon earth, it is His kingdom coming.

[Remnant]

Amen.. the day of atonement for instance is type and the end of the all sin is the antitype.

I understand....

REalize this...the church is not jerusalem anymore. He removed them as a nation. the disciples were the founders of the new church and when they stoned stephen. the gospel was sent to the whole world signifying that salcvation was for all men and for all nations.

What happened after the disciples passed away. The church became corrupt, which led to the split up. God's church went underground while the pompous popes and his kind toted christianity. They were not the church, because they kept not the commands of God nor kept the words of the prophets and christ's disciples. the church for over a 1260 was invisible to the world, but secretly still preaching the gospel...Until 1800's. God caused a great movement of the entire earth. Men were understand Daniel 8:14, like no other. All the men came up with the same conclusion, that Christ was about to come. As you know, in America it was called the Millerite Movement..although the entire world was doing the same thing. It was named after the William Miller, a farmer from New York.

He explained daniel 8:14, Daniel 9:24-27 and showed how the lord would come in 1843. Of course, he and many others were wrong about the event. The dates were correct, but not event. on October 22, 1844 according the time of the feast, Christ entered his final phase of his ministry in heaven. The day of atonement had come for the entire earth. From out of the Millerite movement arose a church which taught that the Day of Atonement for the world had begin. The judgment of the dead and living were commencing. This is the how the Seventh-day Adventist begin as a church. This is our message to the world, the judgment has begin. The exact words, when Jesus begin his mission. Repent for the time at hand.

[Guest Ahdiba]

I don't know. Maybe I am just tired. Maybe it's this virus, and it's messing with my brain like it's messing with my stomach. Who knows.

It's just that I found this site, signed in, and came to this area because I am Messianic. I saw this forum, which asked how we were Torah-observant. I thought it was Messianics asking other Messianics a general question we could simply answer, think about the similarities and differences of our practices, and converse in a friendly manner. I was really taken aback when I learned in short order that there were people here who wanted to preach at us, to change us, etc. If that was not the intention, that was certainly how I felt, and reading back, that remains what it looks like.

I can understand someone writing, "How do you do this?" and our responding with what we do. We find that we are different, learn from one another, and move on in a friendly manner, but that is not what happened in this particular thread.

I visit another site for believers, writing back and forth to Lutherans, Charismatics, Pentecostals, Presbyterians, 7th Dat Adventists, etc., and when on their site, it is just common courtesy to accept that this is their beliefs. While they know I am Messianic, they don't try to change me. They write what they believe, I write what I believe, and we just go on our ways, still friendly. Those who come on to try to preach at me are few; those who think they are writing something new to me that I had never know are even fewer.

I am just trying to make sense of this thread, but admittedly, I am amazed.

There are so few Messianic sites, and a couple I have visited are not where I want to be. (By the time I worked my way through one such site, just trying to get to where I could look it over to see if I wanted to stay, they literally wanted me to sign my life over to them!) So I thought this would be a nice, friendly spot.

[Guest shiloh357]

I just want you to understand that God in the form of Jesus said the nation was finished. His death ended the Sanctuary services. On the day that Jesus died, the temple veil between the most holy and holy was split into two. For the first time the worshippers of God could look upon the Ark of Covenant. You know the place where the Shekina Glory between the Angels was. I know that its was forbidden to look upon it. The priests couldn't even touch it. They had Golden staffs that they had to carry it with and they had to do it practically without looking at the ark. I understand the sanctuary of the old... It points to the service and ministry of Christ. Understand this please.. I believe the Jews can be saved, but they must go the way of the gentile now. For the that is the new and living way for salvation. the Jews were given 490 years to repent. How did they do? They stoned Stephen sealing their fate as a nation. A new nation did arise. One in which there is no greek or jew.. Anyone can have salvation through Jesus. All the gentiles call Abraham blessed!

I am sorry but that is just a bunch hooey, Remnant. God never said that the nation of Israel was finished, nor do Jews have to go the way of the Gentile.

You are entirely wrong on those points.

The Church is not a new nation that replaces Israel. Israel is still God's nation and the whole of Scripture bears that out. What you are teaching is the heresy of replacement theology, and I will let you know that it is not received on this board.

REalize this...the church is not jerusalem anymore. He removed them as a nation. the disciples were the founders of the new church and when they stoned stephen. the gospel was sent to the whole world signifying that salcvation was for all men and for all nations.

Another inaccurate remark, Remnant. Salvation has ALWAYS been for all nations, even in OT times. The Temple was a house of prayer for all peoples. In the OT, salvation was by grace through faith. Anyone could be saved in the OT if they wanted to. It was God's desire that all the world worship Him on His holy mountain. God called Israel to be light to the Gentiles. They were called to take what God had given them and give it to the world. They failed, yes... but that is beside the point.

God did not raise the Church up to replace Israel, the Church has always been in the plans and mind of God since the beginning of time. The Church is not God's "second" chosen people. The Church and Israel run parallel with each other. One is not the continuance of the other.

The Lord told them as a nation (Israel) they were finished. He told them before He gave up his life. Christ the Lord

Notice:

Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Again, this is misuse of that Scripture. Jesus was not saying that Israel was finished as a nation. Jesus was speaking to the leaders who were the wicked husbandmen in the parable of the vineyard where this verse is taken from. Jesus was saying that Israel was being taken from THEM. He was not saying that Israel was being abolished or abrogated. Jesus was giving Israel into the hands of better husbandmen, namely His disciples.

According to Jeremiah 31:35-36, as long as the sun and luminaries are in the sky, and as long as the waves rush to the shoreline, Israel will still remain God's nation. Well, the last time I checked, the Sun and stars are still in operation and the ocean tide is still making its way to the Pacific and Atlantic shorelines, so Israel must still be God's chosen nation. I know it offends Christian pride, but it is the truth. God is not finished with Israel and even now is fulfilling His prophecies and returning the children of Israel back to their Land.

[Trinity]

REalize this...the church is not jerusalem anymore. He removed them as a nation. the disciples were the founders of the new church and when they stoned stephen. the gospel was sent to the whole world signifying that salcvation was for all men and for all nations.

Before Jesus, God commanded the Jews spead the gospel to the whole world signifying that salvation was for all men and for all nations.

the church for over a 1260 was invisible to the world, but secretly still preaching the gospel...Until 1800's.

Well to set you striate, in 313 AD. Emperor Constantine passed the Act of Toleration, making Christianity legal. It wasn't till church was legal 300 years later that it became corrupted. the Compromising Church (300-500 AD) that led to the Dark Age, "Thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam" Rev. 2:14

[Ahavah]

I know it offends Christian pride, but it is the truth.  God is not finished with Israel and even now is fulfilling His prophecies and returning the children of Israel back to their Land.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

AMEN AND AMEN.....did I say Amen Yet?

[visionary]

It has been 144 years since your prophet was alive. During the last years of her life, she was appalled by the wickenedness that had crawled into the high places of the organization. She indicated that she wanted nothing more to do with the church.

She told you there would be more light. Reformation did not stop with SDA as they would like you to believe,.... there is more light. "And many times those who are seeking for light are by the same teaching obliged to leave the church of their fathers, that they may render obedience." Desire of ages p 232

Wake up.... you know that your prophet told you that if the church did not carry the light, that others would. I do not want to get into the history of your church or the prophet and her warnings against the organization that hijacked her words and put a different spin on it. Read Letter W-166 Dec 2, 1902 from Elmshaven, Sanitarium, CA to Edson and Willie White p 4-5