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dhchristian

Lukewarmness of the Laodicean

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The Laodicean church age is the final church age, and whether you like it or not we are all Laodiceans living in this end time church. But before you Balk at this concept, this "least" of all the seven churches, offers to the overcomer the greatest of rewards. (I suggest reading this Letter in rev. 3:14-end of chapter at link below)

https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/rev/3/14/s_1170014

There has been a lot of debate about what Lukewarmness refers to of this church. The answer to this question is two fold. First of all, there is a temperature of hot and cold that is associated with not being Lukewarm. What in scripture is said to be both Hot and soothing and cool and refreshing? Well, Water of course, But this is speaking of a different sort of water, The Holy Ghost. In verse 20 of this letter we see that Jesus is outside of this church knocking to get in. How is it that a church has locked Jesus out? The answer is in what defines Luke warmness, and that is the Lack of faith. A state of partial belief, yes they have doctrines right, and some will be quoting doctrine on their way to hell, Yes they have charismatic gifts happening in them, but they do not KNOW Jesus, and he will say "I never knew you". (Matt. 7:22)

Some of the symptoms of this partial belief are Doubt in their salvation and the eternal security that comes from Knowing Him. I cannot tell you how many people now are questioning this, and putting emphasis on works based religion to save them in this day and age.

A failure to have victory over sin. The way the Holy Ghost sanctifies us is thoroughly, Over time we have a complete victory over sin in our life, not a victory of forced abstinence, and asceticism, But real victory where the temptation no longer overcomes us. For example, the alcoholic who is in a 12 step program and abstains by his own will and strength, but craves the drink, vs. the alcoholic that has overcome addiction and no longer craves the drink. Yes these victories take time, but in the life of Christian these sorts of victories are commonplace. But in the life of the person living in partial unbelief these changes rarely occur, or if they do occur there is still that lack of victory over the temptation.

Un Belief is the root of all sin, as the following article will attest, But was is epidemic in this end time church is partial belief, or partial unbelief... Luke warmness. It is always sitting on the fence, between full commitment and full on sinfulness.

http://www.internt.net/equipsaints/nof1-chap3.htm

 

Does unbelief in the goodness of God and the reliability of His Word result in a completely godless life? Sometimes it does, but most often it doesn’t. Most people have some belief in a divine being and in a divine code of ethics and morality. Many people obey some of God’s commands because they believe it is best. Many turn to God in difficult, trying circumstances because they believe He is able to help. Their condition is not one of total distrust but partial unbelief. This is a common malady among those who consider themselves Christians. It was also a problem in Israel after the Israelites entered the Promised Land.

Before entering the Promised Land the Israelites promised to do all that God commanded. They made this promise because they trusted Him to be the only provider and protector they needed. However, after living in the Promised Land awhile, they grew dissatisfied with God’s provision and protection. As their dissatisfaction grew, their distrust grew. They became convinced God either could not or would not do for them what they believed needed doing to have a happy, satisfying life. To get the happiness and satisfaction they believed they deserved, they took matters into their own hands and began acting in their own self-interest. In other words, they chose to become self-centered and resort to sinful means to do for themselves what they believed God couldn’t be trusted to do for them.

Did the Israelites distrust God completely? No. Did they break all God’s laws? No. Were they selfish all the time? No. They continued to seek God’s help and ask for His direction in the life of the nation. They faithfully participated in the worship services held at the temple. In regard to their sin, they fulfilled God’s requirements for the sacrifice of animals and ceremonial cleansing. They kept God’s dietary requirements, refusing to eat blood or the meat of any animal He declared unclean. They paid their tithes and offerings to the Temple in Jerusalem. Yet at the same time they were deliberately, and of their own free will, acting selfishly to gratify their own self-interest. They were willfully doing things they knew were wrong to compensate for what they thought God wouldn’t or couldn’t do for them. Thus, their unbelief and resulting disobedience became a stench in God’s nostrils. (Note: Exodus 19:8, 24:3-8; Isaiah 1:2-20)

But that seems unfair. Why should their partial unbelief be a stench to God when they were doing so much good? They worshiped God with singing and musical instruments, with dancing and raised hands, with fervency and feeling. Doesn’t this prove their love for Him? They trusted in God alone for the forgiveness of sin. Isn’t this what God wants? They were devoted to prayer and to asking God for His leading in their lives. What more could God ask of them? They faithfully read the Scriptures and attended all religious meetings. Doesn’t this prove their sincerity? They never came before God without either being neatly dressed or wearing sackcloth and ashes. Isn’t this the kind of respect and humility God requires? How could distrusting God in a few areas be so bad when they seemed to trust and obeyed God in so many important areas? (Note: Isaiah 58:1-12)

There are three reasons why partial unbelief in the goodness of God and the reliability of His Word is a stench in God’s nostrils.

First, unbelief is distrust whether it is partial or complete. If unbelief is complete, we completely reject God and His ways. If unbelief is partial, we selectively reject God and His ways. The important truth to understand is that any amount of distrust in God and His Word results in the same action — taking matters into our own hands and acting on our own behalf without loving regard for the good of others. This means others will be unjustly hurt by our selfishness. And whether we hurt a few sometimes or many all the time, we are deliberately and unnecessarily hurting others to further our own self-interest. For this reason unbelief is not an issue of degrees, but results. Therefore, the stench of unbelief which offends the nostrils of God comes from the unloving, self-serving, destructive results of unbelief.

Second, any amount of distrust of what we know to be true about God and His Word results in our deliberately doing what we know is wrong. Unbelief held in ignorance is not a worrisome issue to God. This doesn’t mean that He’s not grieved over people being needlessly hurt by the effects of unwitting distrust. But He knows that if we seriously strive to do what we know is right, we will search and re-search every area of our life for any distrust so we can confess it, repent of it, and get on with trusting Him in that area, too. Therefore, partial unbelief is not the extensive problem it is because of sins committed in ignorance by well-meaning people. Partial unbelief is the horrendous problem it is because we compensate for our distrust of God by deliberately doing what we know is wrong (and wouldn’t want others to do to us). This is diabolical, heinous, inhumane, and inexcusable. Willfully doing what we know is wrong at the expense of others because we don’t completely trust our completely trustworthy God is a stench which offends God’s nostrils.

Third, partial unbelief in what we know to be true about the goodness of God and the reliability of His Word too often hides behind the lies of self-deception. Self-deception is the worst form of deception because it is self-induced. We deceive ourselves for the purpose of substituting what we know to be true for the lies we want to believe as true. We lie to ourselves about our selfish choices and behavior so we can think of ourselves as good, well-meaning people, when in fact we are seeking our own good at the expense of others. But as long as we maintain the lie, we feel good about practicing our sin. As long as we tell ourselves we are good, well-meaning people who are doing the best with what we have, we feel no guilt when selfishly doing what makes life better for us. Truly, the worst part of partial unbelief is that we deny its existence and its effects on others through the trickery of self-deception. Thus partial unbelief is a horribly offensive stench to God’s nostrils.

***************

So as you can see, This article states that this partial unbelief is stench to God's nostrils, and How the letter to the Laodicean's  puts it is vomit in the mouth of God that he must spue out. Self deception, The third point above, is the very complaint against this church, their denial that there is anything wrong, that they are rich and in need of nothing, when in fact they are blind, Naked, and Poor. (See verse 17). But like all the church ages before this God has given us a way to overcome, and when we in this Laodicean age do overcome the same way HE overcame, in the wilderness being tempted of the devil. Those temptations he faced are the very same we face in this day and age, in that these temptations are seductions. The Lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the Pride of life. He overcame these desires by humbling himself and dying on the cross, being hung on a tree, The lowliest way for a Jewish person to die. 

With that overcoming of this church, also comes the greatest reward: "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. (Rev 3:21). 

Though this worst of the churches is vomit in the mouth of God if they remain in partial unbelief their promise is the greatest of the seven churches who overcome. Though many paint this church as the least and the worst, from her midst come the greatest of the saints, that will do wonders and signs even greater than the one done while the Son of Man walked amongst mankind. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. (John 14:12)

The question is will he find a church that is living in partial belief, or one that is fully committed and persuaded, that HE is able, as the Old Hymn puts it?

Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? (Luke 18:8b)

 

 

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5 hours ago, dhchristian said:

The Laodicean church age is the final church age, and whether you like it or not we are all Laodiceans living in this end time church. But before you Balk at this concept, this "least" of all the seven churches, offers to the overcomer the greatest of rewards. (I suggest reading this Letter in rev. 3:14-end of chapter at link below)

https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/rev/3/14/s_1170014

There has been a lot of debate about what Lukewarmness refers to of this church. The answer to this question is two fold. First of all, there is a temperature of hot and cold that is associated with not being Lukewarm. What in scripture is said to be both Hot and soothing and cool and refreshing? Well, Water of course, But this is speaking of a different sort of water, The Holy Ghost. In verse 20 of this letter we see that Jesus is outside of this church knocking to get in. How is it that a church has locked Jesus out? The answer is in what defines Luke warmness, and that is the Lack of faith. A state of partial belief, yes they have doctrines right, and some will be quoting doctrine on their way to hell, Yes they have charismatic gifts happening in them, but they do not KNOW Jesus, and he will say "I never knew you". (Matt. 7:22)

Some of the symptoms of this partial belief are Doubt in their salvation and the eternal security that comes from Knowing Him. I cannot tell you how many people now are questioning this, and putting emphasis on works based religion to save them in this day and age.

A failure to have victory over sin. The way the Holy Ghost sanctifies us is thoroughly, Over time we have a complete victory over sin in our life, not a victory of forced abstinence, and asceticism, But real victory where the temptation no longer overcomes us. For example, the alcoholic who is in a 12 step program and abstains by his own will and strength, but craves the drink, vs. the alcoholic that has overcome addiction and no longer craves the drink. Yes these victories take time, but in the life of Christian these sorts of victories are commonplace. But in the life of the person living in partial unbelief these changes rarely occur, or if they do occur there is still that lack of victory over the temptation.

Un Belief is the root of all sin, as the following article will attest, But was is epidemic in this end time church is partial belief, or partial unbelief... Luke warmness. It is always sitting on the fence, between full commitment and full on sinfulness.

http://www.internt.net/equipsaints/nof1-chap3.htm

 

Does unbelief in the goodness of God and the reliability of His Word result in a completely godless life? Sometimes it does, but most often it doesn’t. Most people have some belief in a divine being and in a divine code of ethics and morality. Many people obey some of God’s commands because they believe it is best. Many turn to God in difficult, trying circumstances because they believe He is able to help. Their condition is not one of total distrust but partial unbelief. This is a common malady among those who consider themselves Christians. It was also a problem in Israel after the Israelites entered the Promised Land.

Before entering the Promised Land the Israelites promised to do all that God commanded. They made this promise because they trusted Him to be the only provider and protector they needed. However, after living in the Promised Land awhile, they grew dissatisfied with God’s provision and protection. As their dissatisfaction grew, their distrust grew. They became convinced God either could not or would not do for them what they believed needed doing to have a happy, satisfying life. To get the happiness and satisfaction they believed they deserved, they took matters into their own hands and began acting in their own self-interest. In other words, they chose to become self-centered and resort to sinful means to do for themselves what they believed God couldn’t be trusted to do for them.

Did the Israelites distrust God completely? No. Did they break all God’s laws? No. Were they selfish all the time? No. They continued to seek God’s help and ask for His direction in the life of the nation. They faithfully participated in the worship services held at the temple. In regard to their sin, they fulfilled God’s requirements for the sacrifice of animals and ceremonial cleansing. They kept God’s dietary requirements, refusing to eat blood or the meat of any animal He declared unclean. They paid their tithes and offerings to the Temple in Jerusalem. Yet at the same time they were deliberately, and of their own free will, acting selfishly to gratify their own self-interest. They were willfully doing things they knew were wrong to compensate for what they thought God wouldn’t or couldn’t do for them. Thus, their unbelief and resulting disobedience became a stench in God’s nostrils. (Note: Exodus 19:8, 24:3-8; Isaiah 1:2-20)

But that seems unfair. Why should their partial unbelief be a stench to God when they were doing so much good? They worshiped God with singing and musical instruments, with dancing and raised hands, with fervency and feeling. Doesn’t this prove their love for Him? They trusted in God alone for the forgiveness of sin. Isn’t this what God wants? They were devoted to prayer and to asking God for His leading in their lives. What more could God ask of them? They faithfully read the Scriptures and attended all religious meetings. Doesn’t this prove their sincerity? They never came before God without either being neatly dressed or wearing sackcloth and ashes. Isn’t this the kind of respect and humility God requires? How could distrusting God in a few areas be so bad when they seemed to trust and obeyed God in so many important areas? (Note: Isaiah 58:1-12)

There are three reasons why partial unbelief in the goodness of God and the reliability of His Word is a stench in God’s nostrils.

First, unbelief is distrust whether it is partial or complete. If unbelief is complete, we completely reject God and His ways. If unbelief is partial, we selectively reject God and His ways. The important truth to understand is that any amount of distrust in God and His Word results in the same action — taking matters into our own hands and acting on our own behalf without loving regard for the good of others. This means others will be unjustly hurt by our selfishness. And whether we hurt a few sometimes or many all the time, we are deliberately and unnecessarily hurting others to further our own self-interest. For this reason unbelief is not an issue of degrees, but results. Therefore, the stench of unbelief which offends the nostrils of God comes from the unloving, self-serving, destructive results of unbelief.

Second, any amount of distrust of what we know to be true about God and His Word results in our deliberately doing what we know is wrong. Unbelief held in ignorance is not a worrisome issue to God. This doesn’t mean that He’s not grieved over people being needlessly hurt by the effects of unwitting distrust. But He knows that if we seriously strive to do what we know is right, we will search and re-search every area of our life for any distrust so we can confess it, repent of it, and get on with trusting Him in that area, too. Therefore, partial unbelief is not the extensive problem it is because of sins committed in ignorance by well-meaning people. Partial unbelief is the horrendous problem it is because we compensate for our distrust of God by deliberately doing what we know is wrong (and wouldn’t want others to do to us). This is diabolical, heinous, inhumane, and inexcusable. Willfully doing what we know is wrong at the expense of others because we don’t completely trust our completely trustworthy God is a stench which offends God’s nostrils.

Third, partial unbelief in what we know to be true about the goodness of God and the reliability of His Word too often hides behind the lies of self-deception. Self-deception is the worst form of deception because it is self-induced. We deceive ourselves for the purpose of substituting what we know to be true for the lies we want to believe as true. We lie to ourselves about our selfish choices and behavior so we can think of ourselves as good, well-meaning people, when in fact we are seeking our own good at the expense of others. But as long as we maintain the lie, we feel good about practicing our sin. As long as we tell ourselves we are good, well-meaning people who are doing the best with what we have, we feel no guilt when selfishly doing what makes life better for us. Truly, the worst part of partial unbelief is that we deny its existence and its effects on others through the trickery of self-deception. Thus partial unbelief is a horribly offensive stench to God’s nostrils.

***************

So as you can see, This article states that this partial unbelief is stench to God's nostrils, and How the letter to the Laodicean's  puts it is vomit in the mouth of God that he must spue out. Self deception, The third point above, is the very complaint against this church, their denial that there is anything wrong, that they are rich and in need of nothing, when in fact they are blind, Naked, and Poor. (See verse 17). But like all the church ages before this God has given us a way to overcome, and when we in this Laodicean age do overcome the same way HE overcame, in the wilderness being tempted of the devil. Those temptations he faced are the very same we face in this day and age, in that these temptations are seductions. The Lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the Pride of life. He overcame these desires by humbling himself and dying on the cross, being hung on a tree, The lowliest way for a Jewish person to die. 

With that overcoming of this church, also comes the greatest reward: "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. (Rev 3:21). 

Though this worst of the churches is vomit in the mouth of God if they remain in partial unbelief their promise is the greatest of the seven churches who overcome. Though many paint this church as the least and the worst, from her midst come the greatest of the saints, that will do wonders and signs even greater than the one done while the Son of Man walked amongst mankind. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. (John 14:12)

The question is will he find a church that is living in partial belief, or one that is fully committed and persuaded, that HE is able, as the Old Hymn puts it?

Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? (Luke 18:8b)

 

 

Your post is too long for me to read the whole thing. The Laodicean Church was lukewarm and that is bad. It is not a place you want to be as a Christian. 

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2 hours ago, missmuffet said:

Your post is too long for me to read the whole thing. The Laodicean Church was lukewarm and that is bad. It is not a place you want to be as a Christian. 

Thanks for the input. The short attention span of the modern twitter generation is something I am not used to. Hard to convey deep biblical truths in short posts.

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Posted (edited)

How do we get 'lukewarm'? I suggest it is because the teeth of the the Tanach and the New Testament have been pulled. No longer is second Temple literature and church fathers of value. It is all about me and my interpretation via poor teachers and even poorer understanding of the big story.

Nobody seems to regard scholarship as worthy any more so we seem to have a very two-dimensional view of what we believe. There appears to be no depth and no deeper understanding that a few texts quoted to substantiate a flaky doctrine that no one understand since it was cookie-cutter material in the seminarian's manual.

If intelligent people are suborned by overbearing teachers that want us to check our minds in at the church door, is it surprising that Warren and others with their manuals of 'purpose driven' something are latched onto by a starving congregation. 

FEED MY SHEEP has become a euphemism for STARVE MY SHEEP.

Edited by Justin Adams
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30 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

Nobody seems to regard scholarship as worthy any more so we seem to have a very two-dimensional view of what we believe. There appears to be no depth and no deeper understanding that a few texts quoted to substantiate a flaky doctrine that no one understand since it was cookie-cutter material in the seminarian's manual.

By The same token, I have heard some deep sermons, full of scholarship, that are devoid of the Spirit. The Point being that Jesus has been locked out. If lukewarmness was just the lack of scholarship it would be easy to fix. Lukewarmness is the lack of the realization of the need of something greater, and a comfort with what one has. Churches feed this sense of security and comfort nowadays, as opposed to making us uncomfortable to sit in the presence of a Holy God, because when Jesus is Locked out there is nothing in the church to convict the soul. As a result we never reach maturity in Christ Jesus. We never eat meat because we are comfortable to remain suckling on the milk.

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Posted (edited)

I take your points. They are correct but lack the reasoning for this. Someone I worked for (a Machiavellian) said, "do not bring me a diagnosis without a suggested cure".

I suggest that since we have heard the wrong Gospel, that we are powerless by our own stilted beliefs. It is all there but seldom appropriated. We are the righteousness of God in Christ. All things were put under His feet. That means, when we are IN HIM, we have the same attributes. But spiritual wickedness in high places seems to thwart this message at most levels. If we are IN HIM, we should do the works that He showed us to do. It is like we have not got the Spirit, and some teach this. Actually MANY teach this. You ARE what you believe. So if you believe the devil has the upper hand, you will let him be, unopposed.

So study and scholarship will show us that God's Cosmology is not limited to what we are taught. Yeshua was constantly railing on the 'priests and learned ones' because they were trapped by their OWN understanding and nit-picking doctrines, therefore not seeing God very much. It has to do with belief really.

I do not buy into the modern churches idea of what a Christian is. I am considered radical, yet to me that is what God likes.

Just look at the RCC and earlier pagan stuff that is in the church today. Why would The Spirit tarry there? Why indeed seek the living among the dead?

Edited by Justin Adams
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3 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

I take your points. They are correct but lack the reasoning for this. Someone I worked for (a Machiavellian) said, "do not bring me a diagnosis without a suggested cure".

I suggest that since we have heard the wrong Gospel, that we are powerless by our own stilted beliefs. It is all there but seldom appropriated. We are the righteousness of God in Christ. All things were put under His feet. That means, when we are IN HIM, we have the same attributes. But spiritual wickedness in high places seems to thwart this message at most levels. If we are IN HIM, we should do the works that He showed us to do. It is like we have not got the Spirit, and some teach this. Actually MANY teach this. You ARE what you believe. So if you believe the devil has the upper hand, you will let him be, unopposed.

So study and scholarship will show us that God's Cosmology is not limited to what we are taught. Yeshua was constantly railing on the 'priests and learned ones' because they were trapped by their OWN understanding and nit-picking doctrines, therefore not seeing God very much. It has to do with belief really.

I do not buy into the modern churches idea of what a Christian is. I am considered radical, yet to me that is what God likes.

Just look at the RCC and earlier pagan stuff that is in the church today. Why would The Spirit tarry there? Why indeed seek the living among the dead?

We were given the example of Israel, and the Power of the blood and the cross to overcome, and by his grace we will. The letter to the Laodiceans gives us the solution. The solution begins by seeing we are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and Naked, But we cannot see this till we admit we are not right. For me personally, my eyes began to open when I prayed the prayer in Psalm 139:23-24. I had heard it said as a child this is the most powerful prayer in the bible.... It will expose your weakness.

The solution is always given, we Just have to follow it. when we are shown our wretched state, we must be zealous and repent. The churches today teach that repentance is a work, and not vital to our walk with God. When we are zealous and repent, He will discipline us, as a Father disciplines a son. Todays churches have been feminized to the point of not needing men, and discipline is not encouraged instead churches have become an SJW safe zone where we are comfortable and secure. When Paul writes "by which we cry "Abba Father" the person who is beginning to overcome will know these words, for the discipline of the LORD, but also the Love he shows us during these times, which is indescribable. These are the first steps we need to take till we understand the malady within us. Then we see that Jesus is outside knocking, for we have been living by our own strength and will up until this time. Only then do we know to let Jesus in and that is when we begin to learn from Him. He feeds us the bread of life, and the water of life, by which we are never thirsty. That is, when we no longer live, but Christ lives in us. It is then, that we are capable of overcoming as Christ overcame... This is when Jesus becomes our all in all. 

Until you are knocked out of that comfort zone, whether that comfort zone is a belief in a church, or a belief in your own intelligence, or your own strength of will, you cannot begin to overcome, and you are living in partial unbelief.

 

 

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I could not agree more. I have found no physical place that thinks thus, or dares preach it.

There are written examples such as Smith Wiggleworth, but I have yet to come across anyone remotely like him as a leader.

I do see that men and fathers are no longer needed or respected. They are superfluous to the 2-D menial age in which we find ourselves. The family has been taken over by females that believe they can do everything better than any man. The church seems to support this and the state certainly does. Shrink city thrives on the off-springs of this travesty.

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8 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Thanks for the input. The short attention span of the modern twitter generation is something I am not used to. Hard to convey deep biblical truths in short posts.

I have never texted, tweeted or done any of that stuff. I am not into the high tech world. 

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Just now, missmuffet said:

I have never texted, tweeted or done any of that stuff. I am not into the high tech world. 

my point was that I am not very concise when it comes to getting my point across.  

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