Backslidden or Never Saved

[David1701]

1 hour ago, Faithwilldo said:

There is no contradiction.  A believer falls away from Grace through Faith because it is God's will for it to happen.  God causes it.  We have no say in the matter.

 

That is worse than what you said before!  According to you, God saves a man, by His grace, then changes His mind and curses him.  Can you not see what utter nonsense this is?

[Marathoner]

@Faithwilldo has, in the course of his contributions, testified of that work which Jesus Christ chose to display in me. In reviewing what he's written I also bear witness to his understanding of the scriptures which are bereft of preconceived notions and those traditions of men which enforce these notions like mortar for the tomb (or nails in the coffin).

I've shared my testimony but I didn't reveal everything; I wasn't aiming to write a book so I left portions unwritten out of necessity. Much like our Lord did with the Samaritan woman at the well, Joe has revealed everything which befell me over the course of a life lived. 

The Lord first came to me in a manner similar to Paul's experience on the road to Damascus. God's Spirit literally called me out of this world but I was blind and ignorant of the Lord and His ways. 

After my baptism in water I ran away from the Lord and fell a very long way over the ensuing years, enduring hardship and despairing of my life along the way. I even reached a place where I denied the Lord Himself. Peter did the same before he received the Holy Spirit, denying Christ three times.  

Everything which befell me was according to the will of our Father in heaven. By departing from the community of believers I was making my way toward the culmination of the purpose which the Lord ordained for me before I was born: to offer myself for the sake of another. Once this was done I was taken by illness and started to die, reaching the end of this flesh which I had warred against for so long. 

The Lord came to me a second time in the shadow of death, revealing Himself as the Living One who holds the keys to death and hades. It pleased the Holy One to redeem me from the grave and so He lifted me up from ruin, restoring everything which had been taken in a measure which far exceeded the first. 

When I was restored to His satisfaction, Christ Jesus poured His Spirit upon me and so I was born a new creation in the Son of God (born again). Joe is faithful to the testimony of Jesus Christ... I commend my brother for being approved of God and not men. 

 

[Faithwilldo]

2 hours ago, David1701 said:

That is worse than what you said before!  According to you, God saves a man, by His grace, then changes His mind and curses him.  Can you not see what utter nonsense this is?

God's Word is not nonsense nor does God change His mind.  He created the pathway that leads to Him.  It is not the pathway that I would choose but I accept it because God says it is "good". 

We all must follow this pathway.  Christ is the Savior and He does all the work - even our confession of faith is caused by God.  

Prov 16:1  The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 20:24  Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

All mankind will be saved because it is God's "will" for it to happen.  

John 1:12–13  But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:  Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Eph 1:11   In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Eph 1:4-5  According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:  Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

1 Cor 15:20-28  But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.  For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.  Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.  For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.  The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.  And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Joe

Edited September 8, 2020 by Faithwilldo

[Faithwilldo]

29 minutes ago, Marathoner said:

@Faithwilldo has, in the course of his contributions, testified of that work which Jesus Christ chose to display in me. In reviewing what he's written I also bear witness to his understanding of the scriptures which are bereft of preconceived notions and those traditions of men which enforce these notions like mortar for the tomb (or nails in the coffin).

I've shared my testimony but I didn't reveal everything; I wasn't aiming to write a book so I left portions unwritten out of necessity. Much like our Lord did with the Samaritan woman at the well, Joe has revealed everything which befell me over the course of a life lived. 

The Lord first came to me in a manner similar to Paul's experience on the road to Damascus. God's Spirit literally called me out of this world but I was blind and ignorant of the Lord and His ways. 

After my baptism in water I ran away from the Lord and fell a very long way over the ensuing years, enduring hardship and despairing of my life along the way. I even reached a place where I denied the Lord Himself. Peter did the same before he received the Holy Spirit, denying Christ three times.  

Everything which befell me was according to the will of our Father in heaven. By departing from the community of believers I was making my way toward the culmination of the purpose which the Lord ordained for me before I was born: to offer myself for the sake of another. Once this was done I was taken by illness and started to die, reaching the end of this flesh which I had warred against for so long. 

The Lord came to me a second time in the shadow of death, revealing Himself as the Living One who holds the keys to death and hades. It pleased the Holy One to redeem me from the grave and so He lifted me up from ruin, restoring everything which had been taken in a measure which far exceeded the first. 

When I was restored to His satisfaction, Christ Jesus poured His Spirit upon me and so I was born a new creation in the Son of God (born again). Joe is faithful to the testimony of Jesus Christ... I commend my brother for being approved of God and not men. 

 

Thank you for your comments.

Joe

[David1701]

25 minutes ago, Faithwilldo said:

God's Word is not nonsense nor does God change His mind. 

Exactly!  That is why what you posted was nonsense.  God does not one minute decide to save someone, entirely out of grace, then decide to make him fall away from grace.

Look at this and please stop posting false teaching.

1 John 3:9,10 (EMTV)

9 No one who has been born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. 
10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Everyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

[David1701]

58 minutes ago, Marathoner said:

@Faithwilldo has, in the course of his contributions, testified of that work which Jesus Christ chose to display in me. In reviewing what he's written I also bear witness to his understanding of the scriptures which are bereft of preconceived notions and those traditions of men which enforce these notions like mortar for the tomb (or nails in the coffin).

I've shared my testimony but I didn't reveal everything; I wasn't aiming to write a book so I left portions unwritten out of necessity. Much like our Lord did with the Samaritan woman at the well, Joe has revealed everything which befell me over the course of a life lived. 

The Lord first came to me in a manner similar to Paul's experience on the road to Damascus. God's Spirit literally called me out of this world but I was blind and ignorant of the Lord and His ways. 

After my baptism in water I ran away from the Lord and fell a very long way over the ensuing years, enduring hardship and despairing of my life along the way. I even reached a place where I denied the Lord Himself. Peter did the same before he received the Holy Spirit, denying Christ three times.  

Everything which befell me was according to the will of our Father in heaven. By departing from the community of believers I was making my way toward the culmination of the purpose which the Lord ordained for me before I was born: to offer myself for the sake of another. Once this was done I was taken by illness and started to die, reaching the end of this flesh which I had warred against for so long. 

The Lord came to me a second time in the shadow of death, revealing Himself as the Living One who holds the keys to death and hades. It pleased the Holy One to redeem me from the grave and so He lifted me up from ruin, restoring everything which had been taken in a measure which far exceeded the first. 

When I was restored to His satisfaction, Christ Jesus poured His Spirit upon me and so I was born a new creation in the Son of God (born again). Joe is faithful to the testimony of Jesus Christ... I commend my brother for being approved of God and not men. 

 

While testimonies can be helpful and uplifting, they are not the source of teaching.  That source is the Bible and it says that no-one who has been born of God practises sin; in fact, he cannot practise sin, because he has been born of God.

If you have been born again, then you are unable to return to a life of sin, according to God's word.  This does not mean that you never sin, but it does mean that your life is not characterised by sin, ever again.

1 John 3:9,10 (EMTV)

9 No one who has been born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. 
10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Everyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

[DeighAnn]

On 8/11/2019 at 9:06 PM, ReneeIW said:

How do you know if someone has backslid or was never truly saved in the first place? 

John says is 1 John 3:9 

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
 

So, if a professing Christian goes through a period of time where they revert to their old sinful ways, how do we know if they are backslidden or not truly saved?

 

John 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

John 1:4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Just to throw in my 2 cents without reading this go back and forth doctrine of man THAT only serves as another way of dividing up the body of Christ so we can spend endless hours on this instead of going after the meat of His WORD. 

PLEASE, take this with the LOVE, and gentleness, and kindness, in which I am trying to put it forth.  I believe this is nothing more than "stumbling blocks" for the ewes.  Understand this comes from a point of desperation on my part.  Until we become ONE we will/are get no where fast and there is only one who benefits from that.  THE ELECT NEED TO BE SEALED. 

1.  Never Saved - one who has never 
2.  Saved - one who has
3.  Salvation lost - because the PERSON, NOT GOD, has walked away.  

GOD gives us warning after warning after warning that WE MUST DO.  If you DON'T DO and you turn away and poke God in the eye and laugh, HE DON'T OWE YOU NOTHING.  

HE REMAINED/remains FAITHFUL.  HE DIDN'T TAKE ANYTHING AWAY.  HE OFFERED and GAVE THE GIFT.  IF YOU CHOSE TO THROW IT IN THE TRASH, THAT IS YOUR PROBLEM NOT HIS.

Want to know why you CAN'T find the DOCTRINE of OSASED in the WORD OF GOD?  
Because it is a man made slogan.  AND it leads to deception of little ewes who through ignorance buy the stuff being sold as a "quick and for sure trip to heaven, don't do nothing on your own cause GOD SAID this HERE,  while leaving out or excusing ALL THE THINGS GOD commands THERE".  


It all boils down to this, 
GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE.  His fire CONSUMES EVIL.  IF YOU WALK UP TO A FIRE THAT CONSUMES EVIL AND YOU ARE MOSTLY EVIL, YOU ARE WALKING AWAY, at best, A VERY VERY CRISPY CRITTER.  THOSE ARE JUST the plain cold FACTS.  NO ONE CAN GET AROUND IT.  HE CAN'T BECOME LESS OF WHAT HE IS,  SO WE BEST BECOME SOMETHING THAT DOESN'T BURN.  HE GIVES US THE INSTRUCTIONS ON HOW TO BECOME FIRE PROOF AS POSSIBLE.  The rest is up to us.  He sends us help.  Use it or lose it. 

So in conclusion,  He gave you the gift with the instructions and if you walk up to Him all evil and disappear because of it, all He is going to be able to say is "I never knew you" because you have turned into a puff of smoke that just goes up forever and ever.  


WORKS.  Some how this got this all tied up into the scheme.  First of all, NO ONE DOES ANY WORKS UNTIL THEY HAVE BEEN SAVED SO WORKING FOR THE GIFT IS rendered IMPOSSIBLE.  PUTTING THE "SPIN" ON IT though, HAS BECOME an art form in itself.  WHY would anyone who loves THE LORD have any problem with works?  IF no one worked the WORD would have died out long before we would have ever received it.  

Bottom line on works.  

Revelation 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.



anytime speaks of works, like they are ever anything bad,  here is what maybe stolen from you,

2Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

2Timothy 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

2Timothy 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

THAT'S WHAT THE ONE WHO WILL BE JUDGING US TELLS US.  

2Timothy 2:22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

2Timothy 2:23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

2Timothy 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

I HOPE ALL THIS IS FOUND TO BE GENTLE AS I am working on my communication skills and it seems the love I feel doesn't come across well,
at least not yet.   


John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as he is.

John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

John 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

John 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

John 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.



OHH,  the "works-salvationist" put down.  We NEVER had to be PERFECT under the law.  This is USED TO lead to "the law is done away with" in direct conflict with Jesus not changing a jot or tittle of it,  and this is because SOME don't know the differences between ordinances, statutes and law.  They don't know what was nailed to the cross from what wasn't so they try to keep Christians the same as those who came to the LORD 2000 years ago and not one step closer.  IN MY HUMBLE OPINION.  Yes, we are under a new covenant because that what was against us was taken out of the way but never forget, the LAW is glorious, it just couldn't forgive.    

Ohh, and that leads to...JUST KIDDING

[Faithwilldo]

16 hours ago, David1701 said:

Exactly!  That is why what you posted was nonsense.  God does not one minute decide to save someone, entirely out of grace, then decide to make him fall away from grace.

Look at this and please stop posting false teaching.

1 John 3:9,10 (EMTV)

9 No one who has been born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. 
10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Everyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

We are not born of God until we receive the Early and Latter rain.  The Early rain is not enough for anyone to produce spiritual fruit.  We must have the Early AND Latter Rain.  

Jam 5:7-8  Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.  8  Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

James says a lot in these two verses and its meaning is hidden in spiritual language. 

Christ is the Husbandman who is a farmer.  The Precious Fruit of the Earth is the New Man in Christ who is to be harvested from the Earth.  The Earth represents the carnal & sinful world.  The farmer “hath long patience for it” because birthing many new Sons of God is a long process and is now just getting started with the harvest of the First-Fruits in this present age.

Christ even said:

Luke 12:49  I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!

“Fire” is a spiritual term for the judgment of God.  Without His judgment, no one would be saved.  In the above verse, Christ longs to start that process of judgment upon mankind (The Elect first, then all others) but the time was not yet at hand.  Since before the creation began, Christ has been waiting patiently for that day - the Day of the Lord.   It is no wonder that “patience” is one of the fruits of the Spirit.

At the end of verse 7, James says that the growing season for Christ’s harvest of mankind starts with the Early Rain.  It is at this point in time that a new believer will enter the Church.  The Early Rain represents the receiving of the down-payment of the Holy Spirit.  However, the Early Rain of the Spirit is not sufficient for us to grow to maturity and produce fruit.  We also need the Latter Rain which occurs when Christ “appears again” and baptizes us with His Spirit.  After the Baptism of the Spirit, we finally have the ability to see Christ and to know the Truth.  The sanctification process can then start so that we can grow to maturity and produce fruit.  

James’ main purpose for writing these two verses is to tell us to have “patience” because the creation of a Son of God takes time and does not happen until a person receives the Early and Latter rain of the Spirit.     

Here is another example:

John 8:3-10  And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,  4  They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.  5  Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?  6  This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.  7  So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.  8  And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.  9  And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.  10  When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

The woman represents mankind and the stones represent the Law of Moses.  Christ writes upon the ground the first time (Early Rain) to symbolize when He first writes His law in our hearts.  At that time, the Pharisees do not drop the stones because we are still under law.  Then Christ writes on the ground a second time (Latter Rain) and the Pharisees drop their stones.  The Law can no longer accuse us. 

Christ must come to us two times before we are saved.  That is why the second coming of Christ is so important.  It is not a visible return to earth at some future date.  It is a spiritual return to each of God's Elect.  It comes without observation and it comes "within" us.

Paul's conversion experience is our example that we must follow.  It also teaches the Early and Latter rain.

1Tim 1:16  Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.  

Paul receives the Early Rain on the Damascus Road and then three days later in Damascus, he receives the Latter Rain.

In Mark chapter 8:21-25, it too teaches the Early and Latter rain. 

Mark 8:22-25  And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him.  23  And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought.  24  And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking.  25  After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.

Upon receiving the early rain, the blind man only sees "men walking as trees".  This represents beliefs that come from our carnality.  Upon receiving the Latter rain, the blind man then sees every man clearly.  That represents truth that comes from God.  We must have the Early and Latter rain before we are saved.  Many are called (Early Rain) but few are chosen (Early AND Latter Rain). 

The parable of the Ten Virgins teaches this concept again along with the parable of the Wheat and the Tares.  

Joe   

   

Edited September 9, 2020 by Faithwilldo

[Marathoner]

7 hours ago, David1701 said:

While testimonies can be helpful and uplifting, they are not the source of teaching.  That source is the Bible and it says that no-one who has been born of God practises sin; in fact, he cannot practise sin, because he has been born of God.

If you have been born again, then you are unable to return to a life of sin, according to God's word.  This does not mean that you never sin, but it does mean that your life is not characterised by sin, ever again.

1 John 3:9,10 (EMTV)

9 No one who has been born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. 
10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Everyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

I don't expect for you to understand the role which the testimony of the saints serves, my friend. As it is written,

And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. (Revelation 12:10-11)

I didn't choose Christ, He chose me. As for teachers, I have no need for the wisdom of men because the Spirit of the Lord is my teacher. I believe the words of God. Every one of them. 

[Marathoner]

I was born again after the Lord came to me the second time. Joe describes my testimony very well through what he has shared here. Precisely, in fact.

God's Spirit came to me decades ago declaring I was chosen. That this doesn't adhere to what others might believe is no fault of mine because this had nothing whatsoever to do with me. Salvation is not our work so we might boast, a truth we find expressed in the scriptures. 

Indeed, I struggled greatly with this for decades. I couldn't begin to understand why the Lord chose me and why His Spirit came to me out of the blue. I had to reach the end of myself --- this flesh --- to finally grasp that God does as He pleases (that's also expressed in the scriptures). That Christ chose to manifest His work in me has nothing to do with me. It's all about Jesus Christ, the Son of God. I'm certainly not the first the Lord chose in such a way. Consider the man born blind from the ninth chapter of the Gospel of John; the Lord chose to manifest His work in him. What did the blind man have to do with that?

God is worshiped in spirit and truth (John 4:23-24). Many things of a spiritual nature have been shared in this topic and I understand some struggle with that. I'm not here to debate nor engage in the back and forth that others enjoy, so that's all I have to say about the matter.