Artemus Prime Posted June 27, 2005 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 462 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/20/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/07/1981 Share Posted June 27, 2005 Amen, Jade. I read Paul's words... 1 Corinthians 2:1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tsauder Posted June 27, 2005 Share Posted June 27, 2005 Let them ask some questions and don't stomp them into the ground with eternal damnation if they don't agree the first time to what you're saying. As I've said before, hell is a great motivation for christians to stay christian, but is awfully offensive and a turn-off to non-believers. Agnostic, but we can stamp them into the ground with eternal damnation the *tenth* time they don't agree? I think Hell is a great motivation for immoral people to act more moral. Problem is, acting moral never gets rid of the base immorality problem and is, therefore, ineffective at solving the basic problem. Truth is, some very moral people will end up in Hell but Heaven will be constituted entirely of immoral people, something some Christians would like to deny. Hence, there is no relationship between morality and salvation. Now watch people assume I am pro-immorality Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikeyjay Posted June 27, 2005 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 74 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 665 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/20/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/10/1978 Share Posted June 27, 2005 there is one thing that God gave us that proves he is a good God. he gave us a free will and this is a thing that God cannot overide. he gave us this wonderfu, and scarry control, in order to discover what we will do with it. it is God's hope that we all receive him and r exepted into heaven, this is the end result that i believe He see's yet the end result is changed by what i believe is the thing that He cannot control if he were to give us no free will or alter the ability for us to decide otherwise...would he be a loving God...or would we just be mindless robots! Yours in Christ Jesus Mikeyjay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tsauder Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 Mikejay, What if God foresees that all will come to Christ? What if the offer to enter Heaven is extended for eternity in in that time all eventually accept Christ? Our free will is never violated, it just took some of us a few billion years to finally give up our pride and accept Jesus work on our behalf. What would we think of that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthitjah Posted June 28, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 1,285 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 17,917 Content Per Day: 2.27 Reputation: 355 Days Won: 19 Joined: 10/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted June 28, 2005 Grace to you, What if Universalism is a total lie and opposed to Faith in Christ Jesus which is the Gospel? Come on now? You are preaching Universalism. The Bible clearly states that if you die in your sins? You will be eternally separated from God. Now while we are here on earth we can see God in the Creation. His light and provision. His Goodness towards man. These are dim reflections of His Glory. The Bible states that no man is without excuse. Simply because what is to be known of God is shown through the Creation. That God has placed all men in their certain circumstances at their set times to give all the best chance of being Saved. That they might seek God while He may yet be found. Once you pass away from this earth you will be Judged according to the very Word of God. Men are appointed once to die and then the Judgement. Either you will escape this in Christ or you will be Judged according to your shortcomings (sin). Your very lack of measuring up to God's demands for Righteousness. Which are His very nature. After the Judgment you will either enter into His presence forgiven? Or you will be separated from Him. Eternally. Cast into the place Created for the master of the rebellion. A part of which you willingly partook. Even though the nature of God was plainly seen , written about, and testified too. By many witness'. Including God Himself. On this side of the Cross we are more accountable than the backside of it. Either way Salvation is obtained by Faith in God's Word. It is just that God's Word has been manifested now and been clearly seen. Having clearly seen the manifestation of God, Jesus Christ in the natural and continuing to deny Him will make you more accountable. Not less. So do tell me after being Judged and eternally separated? How will you then be Saved? Look the shock and horror of it all is this. While we may yet see God today in a Sunset or at the Beach? By the beauty of His Creation. In the smile of a Baby or the acts of another believer? In His Goodness towards mankind by the evidence of His long suffering? Eternal separation from God is indeed damnation. Think of the opposite of God. God is light and Love. Opposite that is what? That alone is torture. Not to mention what the Scripture clearly states that damnation is. The total absence of God's presence. Think about it. That is why the act of total Love that Christ committed is so important. He took on your sin. The wrath of God so that you would not have too. I have to give my son medicine sometimes. He does not like the taste of it. I have two options. Either not give it to him and watch him remain sick? Or tell him the Truth that without it he will remain ill for a longer period of time? Quite possibly getting more ill. So I tell him that I know it tastes bad and is offensive to him. However Daddy would not give him anything that was going to hurt him. The taste and the offense only last a second. The illness could mean death. Not only physically but even more so Spiritually. The Gospel is medicine that doesn't taste Good. It heals the sin sick soul. First we have to get past the offense. God is right and we are wrong. That doesn't sit well with most folks. Yet like my son it is neccessary to swallow. It must be administered. Un-compromised. Peace, Dave Peace, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tsauder Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 I would totally agree with you here, tsauder. For the past few days, I've been trying to think of the right way to express how I've been feeling since I've posted on here over the past week, but you've just hit the nail on the head. There are most definitely MUCH more effective ways to win souls to Jesus besides bashing them over the head with verses. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> To me, it isn't an issue about the effectiveness of winning souls to Jesus. It is about being a person who values relationships and trusts that God will work through me in any way He sees fit. That is why I don't care to change anyone to my way of thinking so that they may be more "effective", only to express how some attitudes and actions make it more difficult for me to befriend non-Christians who may judge me based on the potentially off-putting actions of other Christians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tsauder Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 (edited) Grace to you, What if Universalism is a total lie and opposed to Faith in Christ Jesus which is the Gospel? Come on now? You are preaching Universalism. Hi Dr. Luke I disagree, I am not preaching Universalism. From what I understand of that label, Universalism is the belief that all get to Heaven DESPITE what they believe. I clearly stated in my pondering (and that is what it was, a pondering, a wondering, not a preaching) that it may be possible that eventually all would come to faith in Christ. After all, faith is a gift from God and God is generous, even extravagantly so... The Bible clearly states that if you die in your sins? You will be eternally separated from God. It is not so clear to me. In one verse it says "eternal destruction" and in another it is "eternal punishment" and in another it says "eternal torment". I'm not sure it says "eternal separation" at all, but I could be wrong. Not clear at all. So do tell me after being Judged and eternally separated? How will you then be Saved? I think a lot of Biblical language is meant to express sentiment rather than report literal facts. I simply do not know how the afterlife will operate so I am open to being ignorant about it and wondering about it. I don't consider these things to be very important to "know". Other than Christ and Him crucified (in the words of the Apostle Paul) I am simply unclear about most other things and open to speculation as long as it does not violate my concept of the Gospel. Edited June 28, 2005 by tsauder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerioke Posted June 28, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 97 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,850 Content Per Day: 0.84 Reputation: 128 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/19/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/11/1911 Share Posted June 28, 2005 I sometimes struggle with the "What if God is evil and satan is good" syndrome. I account it to doing far too many drugs in my life. I have been able to pull myself back into reality though, by contemplating the bible and reassureeing myself that what the bible tells me makes sence. I am fortunate that I have always believed in a god since I was a very young child and seeked out the true identity of God. This brought me to the conclusion that God did indeed want to get His point across to us , the human race, and decided to come as Jesus, a man. I am thankful that He did because it made the book He wrote that much easier to understand. I believe if you learn to win at checkers, you will be able to understand salvation. It is simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tsauder Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 I sometimes struggle with the "What if God is evil and satan is good" syndrome. I account it to doing far too many drugs in my life. I have been able to pull myself back into reality though, by contemplating the bible and reassureeing myself that what the bible tells me makes sence. I am fortunate that I have always believed in a god since I was a very young child and seeked out the true identity of God. This brought me to the conclusion that God did indeed want to get His point across to us , the human race, and decided to come as Jesus, a man. I am thankful that He did because it made the book He wrote that much easier to understand. I believe if you learn to win at checkers, you will be able to understand salvation. It is simple. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Gerioke, I agree with you. I saw a movie last year or two years ago (Hero?) where one of the main characters sacrifices himself to save his wife and says "I did this because I knew of no other way to demonstrate my love for you." Amy way you slice it, Jesus dying for world gets across a message whcih is as clear to humankind as can be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts