What Noah Could Have Said But Didn't

[serotta]

Two excellent posts Tess. Thank you for clarifying the truth.

[EricH]

Question:

For those who hold that the Noah narrative teaches us about the role of works in Salvation, are you saying that Noah experienced eternal Salvation through building the Ark? Several times in this thread people have written Noah was "saved" in this narrative. Do you meen this is where he was brought into right relationship with God?

Hebrews 11:1 (NASB) defines faith:

Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

Hebrews 11:7 (NASB) now gives an example of what this faith did in the life of Noah

By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

this verse says Noah did 3 things through the agency of His faith which already existed:

1. He prepared and ark (because he believed God's word that a flood would come)

2. By his faith he condemned the world

3. By his faith he became an heir of righteousness (notice it is reaffirmed it is according to his faith, not the building of the ark)

The ark itself:

1. Saved his family (from the flood)

So it seems that the writer of Hebrews taugh that the definition of faith is:

1. Being assured of what is hoped for (in terms of what God has promised)

2. Having a conviction of what God has said and not yet come to pass (not seen) will be.

Noah's faith enabled him to:

1. Build an ark when he did not seen rain and to become an heir of righteousness. 2. Condemn the world by providing a sharp rebuke to a godless generation.

3. Become an Heir of rigteousness

His salvation, condemnation of the world, and the building of the ark were by-products of his faith (assurance of things hoped for and conviction of things not seen). His building of the ark did not make him an heir of righteousness. His faith did. iti s the faith that all three have in common. there is no logical relationship other than that between the three

[Christ's Free Servant]

Nailed that one Sue

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, the credit goes to GOD, because he is the one who gave this to me as an illustration of genuine faith. Nice to hear from you, Kansas Dad!!

[Christ's Free Servant]

Question:

For those who hold that the Noah narrative teaches us about the role of works in Salvation, are you saying that Noah experienced eternal Salvation through building the Ark? Several times in this thread people have written Noah was "saved" in this narrative. Do you meen this is where he was brought into right relationship with God?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hebrews 11:7: "By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith."

Hebrews 11:13-16: "All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. Instead, they were longing for a better country

[Ovedya]

Noah's having built the ark was his response to faith.

Had Noah not had faith he wouldn't have responded by building the ark.

Therefore he wasn't saved by virtue of his work, but by his faith.

As it says in Hebrews 11, "By faith Noah...being moved by pious fear...according to faith." (Heb. 11:7)

[Christ's Free Servant]

Noah's having built the ark was his response to faith.

Had Noah not had faith he wouldn't have responded by building the ark.

Therefore he wasn't saved by virtue of his work, but by his faith.

As it says in Hebrews 11, "By faith Noah...being moved by pious fear...according to faith."  (Heb. 11:7)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, it is kind of like what James talks about. We are not saved by works, but works are evidence that we have faith. Noah had faith that what God said he would do, he would do and he obeyed God. Oh, if we could only get this message across to people that faith is not a feeling or an emotional experience or an intellectual assent to something. It is a heart response to what Christ did for us in dying for us on the cross so that we could be saved, not only from the penalty of sin, but from the bondage to sin. Our response of faith is to repent - to turn from our sin and to turn to God in faith and obedience. This does not mean sinless perfection, but what it means is that we are "building our arks." We are living in obedience and walking in truth and do not have this idea that we can pray a prayer and have our ticket into heaven without a life change.

If God told Noah to build an ark because he was going to bring a flood and kill everyone and this was to be the means of salvation for him and his family, and his response was to do something other than build the ark, then his response would not match the faith he is supposed to have. The same goes with us. If I say that I believe Jesus died for my sins so that I could be completely forgiven and so that I don't have to live in sin (a sinful lifestyle) any longer, and then I continue to live in sin, where is my faith? Faith is action. It is an act of obedience to God in response to what he has done. And, the action should match the faith.

[Kabowd]

If you read nothing else I've said...please read the following:

Was it the ark that saved Noah? Was it his obedience to God's instructions that saved him? Let's see....

In Genesis 6 God tells Noah to build the ark and gives him very specific instructions. He tells him to use gopherwood and to make it about 450 feet long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet high. Everything God tells Noah is very detailed and specific, but there is something tucked away inside those instructions that most people overlook. In verse 14, God tells him to coat it with "pitch" inside and out. This is highly important to the story. Pitch was something really thick, similar to tar or maybe sap. Why would God tell Noah to cover the entire ark with this? One, because it was sort of a "waterproof" agent and it would protect and preserve the wood. Two, because although Noah I'm sure worked hard and did his absolute best with the materials he had in order to make the ark exactly as God had instructed, being human..there is no doubt there was bound to be some gaps, some holes..some imperfections. The purpose of the pitch was to seal up all the cracks. Here's what is so cool, the word for "pitch" means: to cover, make atonement, make reconciliation, to ransom, purge, cleanse. Does that sound familiar?

"For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom (covering, atonement) for many." Mark 10:45

Jesus, in effect, was our "pitch". Yes, we are called to live a holy life...just as Noah was instructed to build this vessel that would save his family. But at the same time....God knows we are human and that we will fail at perfection. He doesn't leave us to drown in our failures and sins, He provides the covering we need and He "seals us" with His Spirit.

"Blessed is he whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered." Ps. 32:1

"You forgave the iniquity of your people and covered all their sins." Ps. 85:2

"Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set His seal of ownership on us, and put His Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come." 2 Corinthians 1:21

This is the beauty of grace and forgiveness, that He covers us. He wants us to obey, to seek holiness and to repent of sin. But He knows that we will always fall short of perfection. Hence, the whole purpose of Him coming to cover us.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Re-posting this because the last few repsonses seem to suggest it might've been overlooked. Amen to Ovedya's post.

[EricH]

Question:

For those who hold that the Noah narrative teaches us about the role of works in Salvation, are you saying that Noah experienced eternal Salvation through building the Ark? Several times in this thread people have written Noah was "saved" in this narrative. Do you meen this is where he was brought into right relationship with God?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hebrews 11:7: "By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith."

Hebrews 11:13-16: "All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. Instead, they were longing for a better country

[EricH]

If you read nothing else I've said...please read the following:

Was it the ark that saved Noah? Was it his obedience to God's instructions that saved him? Let's see....

In Genesis 6 God tells Noah to build the ark and gives him very specific instructions. He tells him to use gopherwood and to make it about 450 feet long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet high. Everything God tells Noah is very detailed and specific, but there is something tucked away inside those instructions that most people overlook. In verse 14, God tells him to coat it with "pitch" inside and out. This is highly important to the story. Pitch was something really thick, similar to tar or maybe sap. Why would God tell Noah to cover the entire ark with this? One, because it was sort of a "waterproof" agent and it would protect and preserve the wood. Two, because although Noah I'm sure worked hard and did his absolute best with the materials he had in order to make the ark exactly as God had instructed, being human..there is no doubt there was bound to be some gaps, some holes..some imperfections. The purpose of the pitch was to seal up all the cracks. Here's what is so cool, the word for "pitch" means: to cover, make atonement, make reconciliation, to ransom, purge, cleanse. Does that sound familiar?

"For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom (covering, atonement) for many." Mark 10:45

Jesus, in effect, was our "pitch". Yes, we are called to live a holy life...just as Noah was instructed to build this vessel that would save his family. But at the same time....God knows we are human and that we will fail at perfection. He doesn't leave us to drown in our failures and sins, He provides the covering we need and He "seals us" with His Spirit.

"Blessed is he whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered." Ps. 32:1

"You forgave the iniquity of your people and covered all their sins." Ps. 85:2

"Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set His seal of ownership on us, and put His Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come." 2 Corinthians 1:21

This is the beauty of grace and forgiveness, that He covers us. He wants us to obey, to seek holiness and to repent of sin. But He knows that we will always fall short of perfection. Hence, the whole purpose of Him coming to cover us.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Re-posting this because the last few repsonses seem to suggest it might've been overlooked. Amen to Ovedya's post.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There is one problem with your "pitch" analogy.

The word for pitch is Kopher

The word for atonement is kaphar as a verb and kippur as a noun (like yom kippur).

They are really two different words. Even through I agree with your conclusions, that part of your argument is not strong and is in fact fallacious

[apothanein kerdos]

If you read nothing else I've said...please read the following:

Was it the ark that saved Noah? Was it his obedience to God's instructions that saved him? Let's see....

In Genesis 6 God tells Noah to build the ark and gives him very specific instructions. He tells him to use gopherwood and to make it about 450 feet long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet high. Everything God tells Noah is very detailed and specific, but there is something tucked away inside those instructions that most people overlook. In verse 14, God tells him to coat it with "pitch" inside and out. This is highly important to the story. Pitch was something really thick, similar to tar or maybe sap. Why would God tell Noah to cover the entire ark with this? One, because it was sort of a "waterproof" agent and it would protect and preserve the wood. Two, because although Noah I'm sure worked hard and did his absolute best with the materials he had in order to make the ark exactly as God had instructed, being human..there is no doubt there was bound to be some gaps, some holes..some imperfections. The purpose of the pitch was to seal up all the cracks. Here's what is so cool, the word for "pitch" means: to cover, make atonement, make reconciliation, to ransom, purge, cleanse. Does that sound familiar?

"For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom (covering, atonement) for many." Mark 10:45

Jesus, in effect, was our "pitch". Yes, we are called to live a holy life...just as Noah was instructed to build this vessel that would save his family. But at the same time....God knows we are human and that we will fail at perfection. He doesn't leave us to drown in our failures and sins, He provides the covering we need and He "seals us" with His Spirit.

"Blessed is he whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered." Ps. 32:1

"You forgave the iniquity of your people and covered all their sins." Ps. 85:2

"Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set His seal of ownership on us, and put His Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come." 2 Corinthians 1:21

This is the beauty of grace and forgiveness, that He covers us. He wants us to obey, to seek holiness and to repent of sin. But He knows that we will always fall short of perfection. Hence, the whole purpose of Him coming to cover us.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Re-posting this because the last few repsonses seem to suggest it might've been overlooked. Amen to Ovedya's post.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There is one problem with your "pitch" analogy.

The word for pitch is Kopher

The word for atonement is kaphar as a verb and kippur as a noun (like yom kippur).

They are really two different words. Even through I agree with your conclusions, that part of your argument is not strong and is in fact fallacious

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I may have read it differently but I don't think she said they were of the same origin.