Luke 23:43... What did Jesus mean?

[Dennis1209]

10 hours ago, George said:

Just a hint for someone studying the passage ... look at the Word -- Paradise ... then read it again in Revelation ... it's only used 3 times I believe in the New Testament.  As you study and realize that God is restoring all that is lost in Genesis ... do a study on the restoration of a "paradise" and its connection to Eden.  I don't have time to connect the dots for you ... but it'll lead you on a Scripture nugget hunt!  As Proverbs says ... it's the glory of Kings to search out a matter!

God bless,

George

Hi George, I'd be very interested in your thoughts. I know how busy you are and there's not enough hours in your day. I don't expect a response.

I could very well be mistaken in my view and not what the Bible is saying. I never want to make the Bible fit what I think, but I want to understand what God is saying. My current understanding so far is this, please correct me if I'm misunderstanding scripture.

Yes, I could only find three places where the word 'paradise' [S. 3857] is used; Luke 23:43, 2 Corinthians 12: 4, and Revelation 2: 7. 

Luke 16:23 (KJV) And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. [emphesis added]. I'm basing my assumption of the 'rich man' looking up; because of different depths of temporary confinement of Hell [Hades, the abyss, bottomless pit] and the following verses: 

Ephesians 4:8 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10.  He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)  Another view of these verses would be that Jesus descended into the earth to show and declare His victory over Satan. 

2 Corinthians 12:4 (KJV) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. Paul, not wanting to draw attention to himself speaking in the 3rd person, was called up to paradise [Heaven]. My thoughts are when captivity was lead captive [Eph. 4: 8], paradise was removed from in the earth and transported to Heaven? < that's a question:

Paradise [S. 3857] - a park, an Eden, place of future happiness: Revelation 2:7 (KJV) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. My thoughts are; paradise is going to be restored here on earth during Jesus reign, much like or as the Garden of Eden was, among a number of other things. The cursed ground and nature will be partially or fully removed. After the fervent heat melts the entire universe and all things, God will create new; the New Jerusalem will descend to earth, and Heaven will come to earth, and we will be with the Lord for all of eternity.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

On 2/14/2020 at 8:02 AM, Justin Adams said:

Luke 23:43 New International Version (NIV)

43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Or, "Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise."

The translators and transcribers provide punctuation. Original text has none.

Historical Position:   Before the cross paradise was the good side of the grave.   After Jesus died, he moved it to heaven.

In the Fathers, paradise is in heaven.  There is no punctuation or commas in NT greek.  

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Ephesians 4:8-15 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
8 That is why the Scriptures say,

“He went up high into the sky;
    he took prisoners with him,
    and he gave gifts to people.”

9 When it says, “He went up,” what does it mean? It means that he first came down low to earth. 10 So Christ came down, and he is the same one who went up. He went up above the highest heaven in order to fill everything with himself. 11 And that same Christ gave these gifts to people: He made some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to go and tell the Good News, and some to care for and teach God’s people.[a] 12 Christ gave these gifts to prepare God’s holy people for the work of serving, to make the body of Christ stronger. 13 This work must continue until we are all joined together in what we believe and in what we know about the Son of God. Our goal is to become like a full-grown man—to look just like Christ and have all his perfection.

14 Then we will no longer be like babies. We will not be people who are always changing like a ship that the waves carry one way and then another. We will not be influenced by every new teaching we hear from people who are trying to deceive us—those who make clever plans and use every kind of trick to fool others into following the wrong way. 15 No, we will speak the truth with love. We will grow to be like Christ in every way. He is the head,

 

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2 Corinthians 12:2-5

I knew a man, fourteen years ago (whether in the body, I know not; or out of the body, I know not: God knows such an one caught up even to the third heaven. And I know how that he was caught up into Paradise, (whether in the body, I know not; or out of the body, I know not;) and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. On behalf of such an one will I glory: but on my own behalf I will not glory.

Great indeed was this revelation. But this was not the only one: there were many others besides, but he mentions one out of many. For that there were many, hear what he says: Lest I should be exalted overmuch through the exceeding greatness of the revelations. 'And yet,' a man may say, 'if he wished to conceal them, he ought not to have given any intimation whatever or said any thing of the sort; but if he wished to speak of them, to speak plainly.' Wherefore then is it that he neither spoke plainly nor kept silence? To show by this also that he resorts to the thing unwillingly. And therefore also he has stated the time, fourteen years. For he does not mention it without an object, but to show that he who had refrained for so long a time would not now have spoken out, except the necessity for doing so had been great. But he would have still kept silence, had he not seen the brethren perishing. Now if Paul from the very beginning was such an one as to be counted worthy of such a revelation, when as yet he had not wrought such good works; consider what he must have grown to in fourteen years. And observe how even in this very matter he shows modesty, by his saying some things, but confessing that of others he is ignorant. For that he was caught up indeed, he declared, but whether in the body or out of the body he says he does not know. And yet it would have been quite enough, if he had told of his being caught up and had been silent [about the other]; but as it is, in his modesty he adds this also. What then? Was it the mind that was caught up and the soul, while the body remained dead? Or was the body caught up? It is impossible to tell. For if Paul who was caught up and whom things unspeakable, so many and so great, had befallen was in ignorance, much more we. For, indeed, that he was in Paradise he knew, and that he was in the third heaven he was not ignorant, but the manner he knew not clearly. And see from yet another consideration how free he is from pride. For in his narrative about the city of the Damascenes 2 Corinthians 11:32 he confirms what he says, but here not; for it was not his aim to establish this fact strongly, but to mention and intimate it only. Wherefore also he goes on to say, Of such an one will I glory; not meaning that he who was caught up was some other person, but he so frames his language in the best manner he possibly could, so as at once to mention the fact, and to avoid speaking of himself openly. For what sequence would there be in bringing some one else forward, when discoursing about himself? Wherefore then did he so put it? It was not all one to say, 'I was caught up,' and, I knew one that was caught up; and 'I will glory of myself,' and, I will glory of such an one. Now if any should say, 'And how is it possible to be caught up without a body?' I will ask him, 'How is it possible to be caught up with a body?' for this is even more inexplicable than the other, if you examine by reasonings and do not give place to faith.

2. But wherefore was he also caught up? As I think, that he might not seem to be inferior to the rest of the Apostles. For since they had companied with Christ, but Paul had not: He therefore caught up unto glory him also. Into Paradise. For great was the name of this place, and it was everywhere celebrated. Wherefore also Christ said, Today you shall be with Me in Paradise. Luke 23:43"   http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/220226.htm

 

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Ver. 8. Wherefore he says, When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

As though he had said, Why are you high-minded? The whole is of God. The Prophet says in the Psalm, You have received gifts among men Psalm 68:18., whereas the Apostle says, He gave gifts unto men. The one is the same as the other.

Ver. 9, 10. Now this, He ascended, what is it, but that He also descended into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended, is the same also that ascended far above all the Heavens, that He might fill all things.

When you hear these words, think not of a mere removal from one place to another; for what Paul establishes in the Epistle to the Philippians Philippians 2:5-8, that very argument is he also insisting upon here. In the same way as there, when exhorting them concerning lowliness, he brings forward Christ as an example, so does he here also, saying, He descended into the lower parts of the earth. For were not this so, this expression which he uses, He became obedient even unto death Philippians 2:8-9, were superfluous; whereas from His ascending, he implies His descent, and by the lower parts of the earth, he means death, according to the notions of men; as Jacob also said, Then shall you bring down my gray hairs with sorrow to the grave. Genesis 32:48 And again as it is in the Psalm, Lest I become like them that go down into the pit Psalm 143:7, that is like the dead. Why does he descant upon this region here? And of what captivity does he speak? Of that of the devil; for He took the tyrant captive, the devil, I mean, and death, and the curse, and sin. Behold His spoils and His trophies.

Now this, He ascended, what is it but that He also descended?

This strikes at Paul of Samosata and his school.

He that descended, is the same also that ascended far above all the Heavens, that He might fill all things.

He descended, says he, into the lower parts of the earth, beyond which there are none other: and He ascended up far above all things, to that place, beyond which there is none other. This is to show His divine energy, and supreme dominion. For indeed even of old had all things been filled."http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/230111.htm