How do you explain Trinity or non Trinitarian views

[David1701]

1 hour ago, Ervin P said:

I have searched the internet for a list of non Trinitarian views and on an interfaith forum I found the following which I am going to paste:

1. Matthew 24:36 
No one knows about that day or hour, not even the Son, but the Father only. 
Here Jesus makes a distinction between what he knows and what the Father knows. 

2. Matthew 26:39 
My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me, yet not as I will, but as Thou will. 
Jesus’ will is likewise autonomous from God’s Will. Jesus is seeking acquiescence to God’s will.

3. John 5:26 
For as the Father has life in Himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. 
Jesus received his life from God. God received his life from no one. He is eternally self-existent. 

4. John 5:30 
By myself, I can do nothing: I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who has sent me. 
Jesus says, “by myself, I can do nothing.” This indicates that Jesus is relying upon his own relationship with God. He is not trying to “please myself” but rather is seeking to “please the one who sent me.”

5. John 5:19 
The Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees the Father doing, because whatever the Father does, the Son does also. 
Jesus declares that he is following a pattern laid down by God. He is expressing obedience to God.

6. Mark 10:18 
Why do you call me good? No one is good, except God alone. 
Here Jesus emphatically makes a distinction between himself and God.

7. John 14:28 
The Father is greater than I. 
This is another strong statement that makes a distinction between Jesus and God.

8. Matthew 6:9 
Our Father, which art in Heaven. 
He didn’t pray, Our Father, which art standing right here!”

9. Matthew 27:46 
My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me? 
Inconceivable if he is God the Creator.

10. John 17:21-23 
. . .that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. . ..that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. 
In this prayer Jesus defines the term “to be one.” It is clearly accomplished through the relationship of two autonomous beings. Christian believers are to model their relationship (to become one) after the relationship of God and Christ (as God and Christ are one). Notice that “to be one” does not mean to be “one and the same.”

11. 1 Corinthians 15:27-28 
For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. 
Paul declares that God put everything under Christ, except God himself. Instead God rules all things through Christ. (remember: “through him all things were made.”)

12. Hebrews 1:3 
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being. 
Jesus is the exact representation of his being. I send my representative to Congress. He is not me, myself. He is my representative.

13. Hebrews 4:15 (compared with James 1:13) 
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet without sin. 
Jesus has been tempted in every way, just as we are, yet he never sinned. See 

James 1:13: When tempted, no one should say, God is tempting me. For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt. 
Jesus was tempted in every way, but God cannot be tempted. This is why Jesus said, “don’t call me good, none are good, only God.”

14. Hebrews 5:7-9 
During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him 
Jesus had to walk a course of faith and obedience in order to achieve perfection. By achieving perfection, Jesus “became” the source of eternal salvation

 

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You need to realise that Jesus is God and man.  Some of the things he said, were said as man and others as God.  As God, the Lord is, and was, always omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent but he was none of these, as man.  He has (and had, during his earthly ministry) two natures in the one Person.

Omnipotent 

John 1:1-4 (VW)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.

Omniscient

John 16:28-30 (VW)

28 I came forth from the Father and have come into the world. Again, I leave the world and go to the Father.
29 His disciples said to Him, Behold, now You are speaking plainly, and using no figure of speech.
30 Now we are sure that You know all things, and have no need that anyone should question You. By this we believe that You came forth from God.

Omnipresent

John 3:12,13 (VW)

12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you Heavenly things?
13 No one has ascended to Heaven but He who came down from Heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in Heaven.

Matt. 18:20 (VW)  For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.

[Ervin P]

Can the following from Job mean that Jesus is somehow God Almighty in flesh?

Job 19:25 I know that my Redeemer lives,
and that in the end He will stand on the earth

[Daniel Marsh]

5 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

Demon are just the disembodied spirits of dead nephilim. Do not confuse demons with the sons of God in Hie Divine Council.

The 'sons of god' in Psalm 82 are His Heavenly Council. They failed the nations they were to watch over and "will die like men".

Deut 32 8 gives the table of nation the Sons of God were supposed to watch over.

Judges are NEVER called elohim (disembodied spirits) the wrong translation of the phrase 'sons of God' (rendered as sons of Israel) has been corrected due to the overwhelming Qumran evidence.

Likewise, Augustine's 'sons of Seth' is absolutely wrong. Augustine's history permeated his views (Manichaeism). He no doubt affected Jerome's work too. Sadly, some seminaries still teach Augustine's ideas that the RCC readily latched onto since it gave their priestly class control over their believing subjects.

Much theology has been spun around improper use of the older translations and transliterations.

Psalm 82 is quite correct in that the Divine Council is seen. Psalm 89: 6 For who in the skies can compare with the LORD? Who among the heavenly beings is like the LORD?  So no human is in the sky with God, just his holy ones, his heavenly beings.

God scattered the disobedient Babel nations and put the 70 lesser sons of God in charge of them. They rebelled and caused mankind to invent all kinds of pantheons. God indicted them in Psalm 82, but these territorial spirits (principalities and powers) still try to hang on to their (now) tenuous position. At the cross, Yeshua was given all power over these fallen beings and Yeshua said, "the gates of hell will not prevail against the church". 

But they will try and the false worship mentioned is one of the hallmarks of fallen sons of God.

 

Ah, what books did you learn that from?

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

I do not remember the word of God coming to " disembodied spirits of dead nephilim" or when they were alive.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

On 6/30/2020 at 8:11 PM, Daniel Marsh said:

How can one be only unique Son and not be Divine?

Hi Trevor, the Jewish People back then were of the same culture and language as Jesus.   Since, in John 10:30 and John 8:58 to be claiming to be God or Divine,  then he was.

"

of parallelism, which generally includes in the second of the parallel terms something in excess of what is expressed in the first; it would be quite in accordance with the nature of parallelism if the second term supplied the reason for the first. That is to say, Jesus was the Messiah because He was the Son of God.

(3) Trial before Sanhedrin.

There is another passage where it is frequently contended that "the Christ" and "the Son of God" must be exactly parallel, but a close examination suggests the reverse. In the account of the ecclesiastical trial in the Gospel of Lk, He is charged, "If thou art the Christ, tell us"; and, when He replies, "If I tell you, ye will not believe:

and if I ask you, ye will not answer. But from henceforth shall the Son of man be seated at the right hand of the power of God," they all say, "Art thou then the Son of God?" and, when He replies in the affirmative, they require no further witness (Luke 22:67-71), Matthew informing us that the high priest hereupon rent his garments, and they all agreed that He had spoken blasphemy and was worthy of death (Matthew 26:65). The usual assumption is that the second question, "Art thou .... the Son of God?" implies no more than the first, `Art thou the Christ?'; but is not the scene much more intelligible if the boldness of His answer to the first question suggested that He was making a still higher claim than to be the Christ, and that their second question applied to this? It was when Jesus affirmed this also that their angry astonishment knew no bounds, and their sentence was immediate and capital. It may be questioned whether it was blasphemy merely to claim to be the Messiah; but it was rank and undeniable blasphemy to claim to be the Son of God. This recalls the statement in John 5:18, "The Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only brake the sabbath, but also called God his own Father, making himself equal with God"; to which may be added (John 10:33), "The Jews answered him, For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.""  https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/son-of-god-the/

Jesus argues from lesser to greater in John 8:58 and John 10:30

 

 

 

If who is not God can not be equal to God.

or saying it another way,

If one is equal to God they can only be God themself.  "fulness of the godhead".

 

 

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Luke 22:60-23:30 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
60 But Peter said, “Man, I don’t know what you are talking about!”

Immediately, while he was still speaking, a rooster crowed. 61 Then the Lord turned and looked into Peter’s eyes. And Peter remembered what the Lord had said, “Before the rooster crows in the morning, you will say three times that you don’t know me.” 62 Then Peter went outside and cried bitterly.

The Guards Treat Jesus Badly
63 The men guarding Jesus made fun of him and beat him. 64 They covered his eyes so that he could not see them. Then they hit him and said, “Be a prophet[a] and tell us who hit you!” 65 And they shouted all kinds of insults at him.

Jesus Before the Jewish Leaders
66 The next morning, the older leaders of the people, the leading priests, and the teachers of the law came together. They led Jesus away to their high council. 67 They said, “If you are the Messiah, then tell us that you are.”

Jesus said to them, “If I tell you I am the Messiah, you will not believe me. 68 And if I ask you, you will not answer. 69 But beginning now, the Son of Man will sit at the right side of God All-Powerful.”

70 They all said, “Then are you the Son of God?” Jesus said to them, “You are right in saying that I am.”

71 They said, “Why do we need witnesses now? We all heard what he said!”

Governor Pilate Questions Jesus
23 Then the whole group stood up and led Jesus away to Pilate. 2 They began to accuse Jesus and said to Pilate, “We caught this man trying to change the thinking of our people. He says we should not pay taxes to Caesar. He calls himself the Messiah, a king.”

3 Pilate asked Jesus, “Are you the king of the Jews?”

Jesus answered, “Yes, what you say is true.”

4 Pilate said to the leading priests and the people, “I find nothing wrong with this man.”

5 But they kept on saying, “His teaching is causing trouble all over Judea. He began in Galilee, and now he is here!”

How can a mere creature  "sit at the right side of God All-Powerful.?

Your interpretation of the trail text is nothing more than special pleading for what is not meant.  

Your interpretation to my knowledge does not exist among the church fathers, whom the Apostles taught.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Ervin P  from Acts 1, we know that Jesus choose not to know because  the times falls under God the Fathers' Authority.

6 The apostles were all together. They asked Jesus, “Lord, is this the time for you to give the people of Israel their kingdom again?”

7 Jesus said to them, “The Father is the only one who has the authority to decide dates and times. They are not for you to know. 8 But the Holy Spirit will come on you and give you power. You will be my witnesses. You will tell people everywhere about me—in Jerusalem, in the rest of Judea, in Samaria, and in every part of the world.”

[Justin Adams]

26 minutes ago, Daniel Marsh said:

Ah, what books did you learn that from?

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

I do not remember the word of God coming to " disembodied spirits of dead nephilim" or when they were alive.

 

This was when the Pharisees confronted Him in John 10. He upped the anti by proclaiming HE WAS THE LORD OF THE COUNCIL, It was HE that said "ye are God, but ye shall die like men". He had just pronounced sentence on them. Psalm 82. Read it and understand.

 

Edited July 7, 2020 by Justin Adams

[Daniel Marsh]

"

FALL OF ANGELS:

(Redirected from NEPHILIM.)

 

 

 

 

Table of Contents

• Woman the Cause of Fall.
• Later Jewish Tradition.

In Apocalyptic Writings. The conception of fallen angels—angels who, for wilful, rebellious conduct against God, or through weakness under temptation.thereby forfeiting their angelic dignity, were degraded and condemned to a life of mischief or shame on earth or in a place of punishment—is wide-spread. Indications of this belief, behind which probably lies the symbolizing of an astronomical phenomenon, the shooting stars, are met with in Isa. xiv. 12 (comp. Job xxxviii. 31, 32; see Constellations). But it is in apocalyptic writings that this notion assumes crystallized definiteness and is brought into relations with the theological problem of the origin and nature of evil and sin. That Satan fell from heaven with the velocity of lightning is a New Testament conception (Luke x. 18; Rev. xii. 7-10). Originally Satan was one of God's angels, Lucifer, who, lusting for worldly power, was degraded. Samael (Yalk., Gen. 25), originally the chief of the angels around God's throne, becomes the angel of death and the "chieftain of all the Satans" (Deut. R. xi. ; comp. Matt. xxv. 41).

But it is especially Samḥazai and Azael of whom the fall is narrated. In Targ. Pseudo-Jonathan to Gen. vi. 4 they appear as the "nefilim" (A. V. "giants"), undoubtedly in consequence of an incorrect interpretation of this word as "those that fell from heaven." The story of these two angels is found in brief form in Yalḳ., Gen. 44; it has been published by Jellinek ("B. H." iv. 127; originally in Midrash Abkir; comp. Rashi, Yoma 67b; Geiger, "Was Hat Mohammed aus dem Judenthume Aufgenommen?" p. 107)."

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/11442-nephilim

[Justin Adams]

1 minute ago, Justin Adams said:

I do not remember the word of God coming to " disembodied spirits of dead nephilim" or when they were alive.

Study second temple literature, Enoch and many of the Qumran documents.

The apostles and Yeshua allude to Enoch or directly quote from it. If you believe you should not read 'verboten' books, then the church has yet another hamstrung believer...  After all, they have stripmined most of the supernatural and nobody has been correctly taught these things.

Anything that Yeshua and the apostles read is good enough for me to read. The TV and other nonsense is daily imbibed by most, yet they frown on some of the ancient texts. Really odd this double standard don't you think?

[Daniel Marsh]

6 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

This was when the Pharisees confronted Him in John 10. He upped the anti by proclaiming HE WAS THE LORD OF THE COUNCIL, It was HE that said "ye are God, but ye shall die like men". He had just pronounced sentence on them. Psalm 82. Read it and understand.

 

again what books friend?

"

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;"

Whom the word came in context is not speaking of the Pharisees because Jesus is quoting the OT to everyone.   He is clearly speaking about those in Psa 82.

I bet you would have fun discussing this with LDS people.