How do you explain Trinity or non Trinitarian views

[Daniel Marsh]

The key to both John 8:58 and John 10:30 is how those who spoke the same language with the same cultural background of Jesus understood what he said.    In both cases they understood him to be saying he is God doing what his Father did first.

 

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again David Marsh,

On ‎5‎/‎13‎/‎2020 at 2:50 AM, Daniel Marsh said:

The key to both John 8:58 and John 10:30 is how those who spoke the same language with the same cultural background of Jesus understood what he said.    In both cases they understood him to be saying he is God doing what his Father did first.

In John 10:30-36 Jesus answered their charge of blasphemy. Why do align your view with their assessment, which he rejected? He did not agree with their assessment that he was God. He answered them with a number of concepts including that the Judges were called “gods or Elohim” and summarised by saying that he was the Son of God. Saying that He and His Father are one, is equated with saying that He is the Son of God, not what Trinitarians claim.

  John 10:30-36 (KJV): 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

 

Kind regards

Trevor

 

Edited July 1, 2020 by TrevorL

[Ervin P]

My understanding has changed. I believe now that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God, but not God.

[Daniel Marsh]

On 5/12/2020 at 5:21 PM, TrevorL said:

Greetings again David Marsh,

In John 10:30-36 Jesus answered their charge of blasphemy. Why do align your view with their assessment, which he rejected? He did not agree with their assessment that he was God. He answered them with a number of concepts including that the Judges were called “gods or Elohim” and summarised by saying that he was the Son of God. Saying that He and His Father are one, is equated with saying that He is the Son of God, not what Trinitarians claim.

  John 10:30-36 (KJV): 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

 

Kind regards

Trevor

How can one be only unique Son and not be Divine?

Hi Trevor, the Jewish People back then were of the same culture and language as Jesus.   Since, in John 10:30 and John 8:58 to be claiming to be God or Divine,  then he was.

"

of parallelism, which generally includes in the second of the parallel terms something in excess of what is expressed in the first; it would be quite in accordance with the nature of parallelism if the second term supplied the reason for the first. That is to say, Jesus was the Messiah because He was the Son of God.

(3) Trial before Sanhedrin.

There is another passage where it is frequently contended that "the Christ" and "the Son of God" must be exactly parallel, but a close examination suggests the reverse. In the account of the ecclesiastical trial in the Gospel of Lk, He is charged, "If thou art the Christ, tell us"; and, when He replies, "If I tell you, ye will not believe:

and if I ask you, ye will not answer. But from henceforth shall the Son of man be seated at the right hand of the power of God," they all say, "Art thou then the Son of God?" and, when He replies in the affirmative, they require no further witness (Luke 22:67-71), Matthew informing us that the high priest hereupon rent his garments, and they all agreed that He had spoken blasphemy and was worthy of death (Matthew 26:65). The usual assumption is that the second question, "Art thou .... the Son of God?" implies no more than the first, `Art thou the Christ?'; but is not the scene much more intelligible if the boldness of His answer to the first question suggested that He was making a still higher claim than to be the Christ, and that their second question applied to this? It was when Jesus affirmed this also that their angry astonishment knew no bounds, and their sentence was immediate and capital. It may be questioned whether it was blasphemy merely to claim to be the Messiah; but it was rank and undeniable blasphemy to claim to be the Son of God. This recalls the statement in John 5:18, "The Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only brake the sabbath, but also called God his own Father, making himself equal with God"; to which may be added (John 10:33), "The Jews answered him, For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.""  https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/son-of-god-the/

Jesus argues from lesser to greater in John 8:58 and John 10:30

 

 

 

[Daniel Marsh]

11 hours ago, Ervin P said:

My understanding has changed. I believe now that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God, but not God.

There Is One God
One God: Explicit Statements
OT: Deut. 4:35; 4:39; 32:39; 2 Sam. 22:32; Isa. 37:20: 43:10; 44:6-8; 45:5; 45:14; 45:21-22; 46:9
NT: John 5:44; Rom. 3:30; 16:27; 1 Cor. 8:4-6; Gal. 3:20; Eph. 4:6; 1 Tim. 1:17; 1 Tim. 2:5; James 2:19; Jude 25
None like God (in his essence)
Explicit statements: Ex. 8:10; 9:14; 15:11; 2 Sam. 7:22; 1 Kgs. 8:23; 1 Chr. 17:20; Psa. 86:8; Isa. 40:18, 40:25: 44:7; 46:5, 46:9; Jer. 10:6-7; Micah 7:18
Being like God a Satanic lie: Gen. 3:5; Isa. 14:14; John 8:44
Fallen man become "like God" only in that he took upon himself to know good and evil, not that he acquired godhood: Gen. 3:22
Only one true God: 2 Chr. 15:3; Jer. 10:10; John 17:3; 1 Thess. 1:9; 1 John 5:20-21
All other "gods" are therefore false gods (idols), not gods at all: Deut. 32:21; 1 Sam. 12:21; Psa. 96:5; Isa. 37:19; 41:23-24, 41:29; Jer. 2:11; 5:7; 16:20; 1 Cor. 8:4; 10:19-20
Demons, not gods, are the power behind false worship: Deut. 32:17; Psa. 106:37; 1 Cor. 10:20; Gal. 4:8
How human beings are meant to be "like God"
The image of God indicates that man is to represent God and share his moral character, not that man can be metaphysically like God: Gen. 1:26-27; 5:1; 1 Cor. 11:7; Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10
The goal of being like Christ has the following aspects only:
Sharing His moral character: 1 John 3:2; Rom. 8:29
Being raised with glorified, immortal bodies like His: Phil. 3:21; 1 Cor. 15:49
Becoming partakers of the divine nature refers again to moral nature ("having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust"), not metaphysical nature: 2 Pet. 1:4; see also Heb. 12:10; on the meaning of "partakers," See 1 Cor. 10:18, 10:20; 2 Cor. 1:17; 1 Pet. 5:1
Are mighty or exalted men gods?
Scripture never says explicitly that men are gods
Powerful, mighty men are explicitly said not to be gods: Ezek. 28:2, 28:9; Isa. 31:3; 2 Thess. 2:4
Men and God are opposite, exclusive categories: Num. 23:19; Isa. 31:3; Ezek. 28:2; Hosea 11:9; Matt. 19:26; John 10:33; Acts 12:22; 1 Cor. 14:2
Moses was "as God," not really a god: Ex. 4:16; 7:1
Ezek. 32:21 speaks of warriors or soldiers as "mighty gods," but in context they are so regarded by their pagan nations, not by God or Israel; cf. Ezek. 28:2, 28:9
The elohim before whom accused stood in Exodus was God Himself, not judges, as many translations incorrectly render: Ex. 22:8-9, 22:28; compare Deut. 19:17
The use of elohim in Psalm 82:1, probably in reference to wicked judges, as cited by Jesus in John 10:34-36, does not mean that men really can be gods.
It is Asaph, not the Lord, who calls the judges elohim in Psa. 82:1, 82:6. This is important, even though we agree that Psa. 82 is inspired.
Asaph's meaning is not "Although you are gods, you will die like men," but rather "I called you gods, but in fact you will all die like the men that you really are"
The Psalmist was no more saying that wicked judges were truly gods than he was saying that they were truly "sons of the Most High" (Psa 82:6 b)
Thus, Psa. 82:1 calls the judges elohim in irony. They had quite likely taken their role in judgment (cf. point 5 above) to mean they were elohim, or gods, and Asaph's message is that these so-called gods were mere men who would die under the judgment of the true elohim (vss. Psa. 82:1-2, 82:7-8)
Christ's use of this passage in John 10:34-36 does not negate the above interpretation of Psalm 82
The words, "The Scripture cannot be broken," means "the Scripture cannot go without having some ultimate fulfillment" (cf. John 7:23; Matt. 5:17). Thus Jesus is saying that what the OT judges were called in irony, He is in reality; He does what they could not do, and is what they could never be (see the Adam-Christ contrasts in Rom. 5:12-21 and 1 Cor. 15:21-22, 15:45 for a similar use of OT Scripture)
The clause, "those against whom the word of God came" (John 10:35) shows that this "word" was a word of judgment against the so-called gods; which shows that they were false gods, not really gods at all
Finally, these wicked men were certainly not "godlike" or "divine" by nature, so that in any case the use of elohim to refer to them must be seen as figurative, not literal
Even if men were gods (which they are not), this would be irrelevant to Jesus, since He was God as a preexistent spirit before creation: John 1:1
Are angels gods?
Scripture never explicitly states that angels are gods
Demonic spirits are not gods, 1 Cor. 10:20; Gal. 4:8; thus, being "mighty spirits" does not make angels gods
Satan is therefore also a false god: 2 Cor. 4:4
Psalm 8:5 does not teach that angels are gods
Psa. 8:5 is paraphrased in Heb. 2:7, not quoted literally (cf. Psa. 68:18 with Eph. 4:8). In Psa. 8:5, elohim certainly means God, not angels, since Psa. 8:3-8 parallels Gen. 1:1, 1:8, 1:16, 1:26-28. Note that the Psalmist is speaking of man's exalted place in creation, whereas Hebrews is speaking of the lower place taken by Christ in becoming a man. Thus, Heb. 2:7 may not mean to equate angels with gods at all.
Even if Heb. 2:7 does imply that angels are "gods," in the context of Hebrews 1-2 these angels would be those falsely exalted above Christ: Note Heb. 1:6 (which quotes Psa. 97:7, which definitely speaks of "gods" in the sense of false gods); and cf. Col. 2:16 on the problem of the worship of angels.
Elsewhere in the Psalms angels, if spoken of as gods (or as "sons of the gods"), are considered false gods: Psa. 29:1; 86:8-10; 89:6; 95:3; 96:4-5; 97:7-9 (note that these false gods are called "angels" in the Septuagint); Psa. 135:5; 136:2; 138:1; cf. Ex. 15:11; 18:11; Deut. 10:17; 1 Chr. 16:25; 2 Chr. 2:5.
Even if the angels were gods (which the above shows they are not), that would be irrelevant to Jesus, since He is not an angelic being, but the Son who is worshiped by the angels as their Creator, Lord, and God: Heb. 1:1-13.
Conclusion: If there is only one God, one true God, all other gods being false gods, neither men nor angels being gods, and none even like God by nature - all of which the Bible says repeatedly and explicitly - then we must conclude that there is indeed only one God.
This One God Is Known in the OT as "Jehovah/Yahweh" ("The Lord")
Texts where Jehovah is said to be elohim or el: Deut. 4:35, 4:39; Psa. 100:3; etc.
Texts where the compound name "Jehovah God" (Yahweh Elohim) is used: Gen. 2:3; 9:26; 24:3; Ex. 3:15-18; 4:4; 2 Sam. 7:22, 7:25; etc.
Only one Yahweh/Jehovah: Deut. 6:4; Mark 12:29
Conclusion: Jehovah is the only God, the only El or Elohim
God Is a Unique, Incomprehensible Being
Only one God, thus unique: See I.A.
None are even like God: See I.B.
God cannot be fully comprehended: 1 Cor. 8:2-3
God can only be known insofar as the Son reveals Him: Matt. 11:25-27; John 1:18
Analogical language needed to describe God: Ezek. 1:26-28; Rev. 1:13-16
God is transcendent, entirely distinct from and different than the universe, as the carpenter is distinct from the bench
Separate from the world: Isa. 40:22; Acts 17:24
Contrasted with the world: Psa. 102:25-27; 1 John 2:15-17
Created the world: Gen. 1:1; Psa. 33:6; 102:25; Isa. 42:5; 44:24; John 1:3; Rom. 11:36; Heb. 1:2; 11:3
Is God One Person?
God is one God (cf. I above), one Yahweh, one Lord (cf. II above), one Spirit (John 4:24)
However, the Bible never says that God is "one person"
Heb. 1:3 KJV speaks of God's "person," but the word used here, hupostasis, is translated "substance" in Heb. 11:1 KJV; also in Heb. 1:3 "God" refers specifically to the Father
Gal. 3:20 speaks of God as one party in the covenant between God and man, not as one person
Job 13:8 KJV speaks of God's "person," but ironically the Hebrew literally means "his faces"
The use of singular and plural pronouns for God
Over 7000 times God speaks or is spoken of with singular pronouns (I, He, etc.); but this is proper because God is a single individual being; thus these singular forms do not disprove that God exists as three "persons" as long as these persons are not separate beings
At least three times God speaks of or to himself using plural pronouns (Gen. 1:26; 3:22; 11:7), and nontrinitarian interpretation cannot account for these occurrences.
A plural reference to God and the angels is possible in Isa. 6:8, but not in the Genesis texts: in Gen 1:26 "our image" is explained in Gen 1:27, "in God's image"; in Gen 3:22 "like one of us" refers back to Gen 3:5, "like God."
The "literary plural" (possibly, though never clearly, attested in Paul) is irrelevant to texts in which God is speaking, not writing.
The "plural of deliberation" (as in "Let's see now…") is apparently unattested in biblical writings, and cannot explain Gen. 3:22 ("like one of us").
The "plural of amplitude" or of "fullness" (which probably does explain the use of the plural form elohim in the singular sense of "God") is irrelevant to the use of plural pronouns, and again cannot explain Gen. 3:22.
The "plural of majesty" is possibly attested in 1 Kgs. 12:9; 2 Chron. 10:9; more likely Ezra 4:18; but none of these are certain; and again, it cannot explain Gen. 3:22; also nothing in the context of the Genesis texts suggests that God is being presented particularly as King.
The uniqueness of God (cf. III above) should prepare us for the possibility that the one divine Being exists uniquely as a plurality of persons
The Father of Jesus Christ Is God
Explicit statements: John 17:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; etc.
The expression, "the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ": 2 Cor. 1:3; Eph. 1:3; 1 Pet. 1:3
Jesus Christ Is God
Explicit statements
Isa. 9:6; note Isa. 10:21. Translations which render "mighty hero," are inconsistent in their rendering of Isa. 10:21. Also note that Ezek. 32:21 is (a) not in the same context, as is Isa. 10:21, and (b) speaking of false gods, cf. I.G.5. above.
John 1:1 Even if Jesus is here called "a god" (as some have argued), since there is only one God, Jesus is that God. However, the "a god" rendering is incorrect. Other passages using the Greek word for God (theos) in the same construction are always rendered "God": Mark 12:27; Luke 20:38; John 8:54; Phil 2:13; Heb. 11:16. Passages in which a shift occurs from ho theos ("the God") to theos ("God") never imply a shift in meaning: Mark 12:27; Luke 20:37-38; John 3:2; 13:3; Rom. 1:21; 1 Thess. 1:9; Heb. 9:14; 1 Pet. 4:10-11
John 1:18. The best manuscripts have "the unique God" (monogenês, frequently rendered "only-begotten," actually means "one of a kind," "unique," though in the NT always in the context of a son or daughter). Even if one translates "only-begotten," the idea is not of a "begotten god" as opposed to an "unbegotten god."
John 20:28. Compare Rev. 4:11, where the same construction is used in the plural ("our") instead of the singular ("my"). See also Psa. 35:23. Note that Christ's response indicates that Thomas' acclamation was not wrong. Also note that John 20:17 does show that the Father was Jesus' "God" (due to Jesus becoming a man), but the words "my God" as spoken by Thomas later in the same chapter must mean no less than in John 20:17. Thus, what the Father is to Jesus in His humanity, Jesus is to Thomas (and therefore to us as well).
Acts 20:28: "the church of God which He purchased with His own blood." The variant readings (e.g. "the church of the Lord") show that the original was understood to mean "His own blood," not "the blood of His own [Son]" (since otherwise no one would have thought to change it). Thus all other renderings are attempts to evade the startling clarity and meaning of this passage.
Rom. 9:5. While grammatically this is not the only possible interpretation, the consistent form of doxologies in Scripture, as well as the smoothest reading of the text, supports the identification of Christ as "God" in this verse.
Titus 2:13. Grammatically and contextually, this is one of the strongest proof-texts for the deity of Christ. Sharp's first rule, properly understood, proves that the text should be translated "our great God and Savior" (cf. same construction in Luke 20:37; Rev. 1:6; and many other passages). Note also that Paul always uses the word "manifestation" ("appearing") of Christ: 2 Thess. 2:8; 1 Tim. 6:14; 2 Tim. 1:10; 4:1, 4:8.
Heb. 1:8. The rendering, "God is your throne," is nonsense - God is not a throne, He is the one who sits on the throne! Also, "God is your throne," if taken to mean God is the source of one's rule, could be said about any angelic ruler - but Hebrews 1 is arguing that Jesus is superior to the angels.
2 Pet. 1:1. The same construction is used here as in Titus 2:13; see the parallel passages in 2 Pet. 1:11; 2:20; 3:2, 3:18.
1 John 5:20. Note that the most obvious antecedent for "this" is Jesus Christ. Also note that the "eternal life" is Christ, as can be seen from John 1:2.
Jesus is Jehovah/Yahweh
Rom. 10:9-13: Note the repeated "for," which links these verses closely together. The "Lord" of Rom. 10:13 must be the "Lord" of Rom. 10:9, 10:12.
Phil. 2:9-11. In context, the "name that is above every name" is "Lord" (Phil. 2:11), i.e., Jehovah.
Heb. 1:10: Here God the Father addresses the Son as "Lord," in a quotation from Psa. 102:25 (cf. Psa. 102:24, where the person addressed is called "God"). Since here the Father addresses the Son as "Lord," this cannot be explained away as a text in which a creature addresses Christ as God/Lord in a merely representational sense.
1 Pet. 2:3-4: This verse is nearly an exact quotation of Psa. 34:8 a, where "Lord" is Jehovah. From 1 Pet. 2:4-8 it is also clear that "the Lord" in 1 Pet. 2:3 is Jesus.
1 Pet. 3:14-15: these verses are a clear reference to Isa. 8:12-13, where the one who is to be regarded as holy is Jehovah.
Texts where Jesus is spoken of as the "one Lord" (cf. Deut. 6:4; Mark 12:29): 1 Cor. 8:6; Eph. 4:5; cf. Rom. 10:12; 1 Cor. 12:5.
Jesus has the titles of God
Titles belonging only to God
The first and the last: Rev. 1:17; 22:13; cf. Isa. 44:6
King of kings and Lord of lords: 1 Tim. 6:15; Rev. 17:14; 19:16
Titles belonging in the ultimate sense only to God
Savior: Luke 2:11; John 4:42; 1 John 4:14; Titus 2:13, cf. Titus 2:10; etc.; cf. Isa. 43:11; 45:21-22; 1 Tim. 4:10; on Jesus becoming the source of salvation; Heb. 5:9, cf. Ex. 15:2; Psa. 118:14, 118:21
Shepherd: John 10:11; Heb. 13:20; cf. Psa. 23:1; Isa. 40:11
Rock: 1 Cor. 10:4; cf. Isa. 44:8
Jesus received the honors due to God alone
Honor: John 5:23
Love: Matt. 10:37
Prayer: John 14:14 (text debated, but in any case it is Jesus who answers the prayer); Acts 1:24-25; 7:59-60 (cf. Luke 23:34, 23:46); Rom. 10:12-13; 1 Cor. 1:2; 2 Cor. 12:8-10 (where "the Lord" must be Jesus, cf. 2 Cor. 12:9); 2 Thess. 2:16-17; etc.
Worship (proskuneô): Matt. 28:17; Heb. 1:6 (cf. Psa. 97:7); cf. Matt 4:10
Religious or sacred service (latreuô): Rev. 22:13
Doxological praise: 2 Tim. 4:18; 2 Pet. 3:18; Rev. 1:5-6; 5:13
Faith: John 3:16; 14:1; etc.
Jesus does the works of God
Creation: John 1:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; Col. 1:16-17; Heb. 1:2; Rev. 3:14 (where archê probably means ruler); on "through" and "in" cf. Rom. 11:36; Heb. 2:10; Acts 17:28; cf. also Isa. 44:24
Sustains the universe: Col. 1:17; Heb. 1:3, 1:11-12
Salvation:
In General: See C.2.a. above
Forgives sins: Matt. 9:1-8; Mark 2:1-12; Luke 5:17-26; note that Jesus forgives sins not committed against Him.
All of them: John 5:17-29 (including judgment, cf. Matt. 25:31-46; 2 Cor. 5:10)
Jesus has all the incommunicable attributes of God
All of them: John 1:1; Phil. 2:6; Col. 1:15; 2:9; Heb. 1:3
Self-existent: John 5:26
Unchangeable: Heb. 1:10-12 (in the same sense as YHWH); Heb. 13:8
Eternal: John 1:1; 8:58; 17:5; Col. 1:17; Heb. 1:2
Omnipresent: Matt. 18:20; 28:20; John 3:13; Eph. 1:23; 4:10; Col. 3:11
Omniscient: John 16:30; 21:17; cf. John 2:23-24
Incomprehensible: Matt. 11:25-27
Jesus is "equal with God"
John 5:18: Although John is relating what the Jews understood Jesus to be claiming, the context shows they were basically right: In John 5:17 claimed to be exempt from the Sabbath along with His Father, and in John 5:19-29 Jesus claimed to do all of the world of the Father and to deserve the same honor as the Father
Phil. 2:6: Jesus did not attempt to seize recognition by the world as being equal with God, but attained that recognition by humbling himself and being exalted by the Father (Phil. 2:7-11)
Jesus is the Son of God
"Son" in Scripture can mean simply one possessing the nature of something, whether literal or figurative (e.g. "Son of man," "sons of thunder," "sons of disobedience," cf. Mark 3:7; Eph. 2:1).
Usually when "son of" is used in relation to a person (son of man, son of Abraham, son of David, etc.) the son possesses the nature of his father.
Jesus is clearly not the literal Son of God, i.e., He was not physically procreated by God.
On the other hand, Jesus is clearly the Son of God in a unique sense (cf. "only-begotten son," John 1:14; 3:16, 3:18; 1 John 4:9) and in a preeminent sense (i.e. the term is more fitting for Him than for anyone else).
Scripture is explicit that the Son possesses God's essence or nature (cf. F. above).
Jesus' repeated claim to be the Son of God was consistently understood by the Jewish leaders as a blasphemous claim to equality with God, an understanding Jesus never denied: John 5:17-23; 8:58-59; 10:30-39; 19:7; Matt. 26:63-65.
Jesus is therefore by nature God's Son, not God's creation or God's servant; Jesus is God's Son who became a servant for our sake and for the Father's glory (John 13:13-15; 17:4; Phil. 2:6-11; Heb. 1:4-13; 3:1-6; 5:8; etc.).
Objections
Prov. 8:22: This text is not a literal description of Christ, but a poetic personification of wisdom (cf. all of Prov. 1-9, esp. Prov. 8:12-21; Prov. 9:1-6), poetically saying that God "got" His wisdom before He did anything - i.e., that God has always had wisdom.
Col. 1:15: Does not mean that Christ is the first creature, since He is here presented as the Son and principal heir of the Father (cf. Col. 1:12); thus "firstborn" here means "heir" (cf. Gen. 43:33; 48;14-20; Ex. 4:22; 1 Chron. 5:1-3; Psa. 89:27; Jer. 31:9); note that Col. 1:16 speaks of the Son as the Creator, nor creature (cf. E.1. above).
Rev. 3:14: "Beginning" (archê) in Rev. as a title means source or one who begins, i.e. Creator (cf. Rev. 1:8; 21:6; 22:13); elsewhere Christ is called the archê in the sense of "ruler," Col. 1:18, cf. plural archai, "rulers," in Col. 1:16; 2:10, 2:15, also Luke 12:11; Rom. 8:38; Eph. 3:10; 6:12; Tit. 3:1; cf. Luke 20:20; Jude 6; 1 Cor. 15:24; Eph. 1:21.
1 Cor. 11:3; 15:28: Jesus is still subordinate to God, but as the Son to the Father; i.e., they are equal in nature, but the Son is subordinate relationally to God.
John 20:17; Rom. 15:6; 1 Cor. 15:24; 2 Cor. 1:3; Rev. 1:6; 3:12: Jesus calls the Father "My God" because He is still man as well as God; note the distinction between "My God" and "your God" in John 20:17 (i.e., Jesus never speaks of "our God" including Himself with the disciples).
Mark 13:32: Jesus' statement that He did not know the time of His return is to be explained by His voluntary acceptance of the humble form and likeness of a man (Phil. 2:7); in fact Jesus, as God, did know all things (John 16:30), and after His resurrection He does not including Himself as not knowing (Acts 1:6-7).
Mark 10:17-18: Jesus does not deny being God, but simply tells the man that he has no business calling anyone "good" in an unqualified sense except God.
Heb. 5:14: Jesus was tempted, cf. James 1:13; but note that Jesus could not sin, John 5:19.
John 1:18: No one has seen God, but men have seen Jesus, e.g. 1 John 1:1-2; but note that no man can see the glorified Jesus either, 1 Tim. 6:16, and to see Jesus is to see the Father, John 14:9.
1 Tim. 1:17: God cannot die, but Jesus did, e.g. Phil. 2:8; but note that no one could take Jesus' life from Him, He could not remain dead, and He raised Himself: John 10:18; Acts 2:24; John 2:19-22.
1 Cor. 8:6: Father called God, Jesus called Lord: but here "God" and "Lord" are synonymous (cf. 1 Cor. 8:5; cf. also Rom. 14:3-12 for a good example of "God" and "Lord" as interchangeable); moreover, this text no more denies that Jesus is God than it does that the Father is Lord (Matt. 11:25); cf. Jude 4, where Jesus is the only Lord.
1 Tim. 2:5: Jesus here supposedly distinct from God; but Jesus is also distinct from (fallen) men, yet is Himself a man; likewise Jesus is distinct from God (the Father), but is also God.
Deut. 4:12, 4:15-25; God not appear in a human form to Israel, lest they fall into idolatry; but this does not rule out His appearing in human form later after they had learned to abhor idolatry.
In many texts Jesus is distinguished from God: He is the Son of God, was sent by God, etc.; in all these texts "God" is used as a name for the person most commonly called God, i.e., the Father.
The Holy Spirit Is God
Equated with God: Acts 5:3-4; 2 Cor. 3:17-18
Has the incommunicable attributes of God
Eternal: Heb. 9:14
Omnipresent: Psa. 139:7
Omniscient: 1 Cor. 2:10-11
Involved in all the works of God
Creation: Gen. 1:2; Psa. 104:30
Incarnation: Matt. 1:18, 1:20; Luke 1:35
Resurrection: Rom. 1:4; 8:11
Salvation: Rom. 8:1-27
Is a person
Has a name: Matt. 28:19; note that even though "name" might be used of a nonperson, here, in conjunction with the Father and the Son, it must be used of a person
Is the "Helper"
Is another Helper: John 14:16, cf. 1 John 2:1; note also that "Helper" (paraklêtos) was used in Greek always or almost always of persons.
Is sent in Jesus' name, to teach: John 14:26.
Will arrive, and then bear witness: John 15:26-27.
Is sent by Christ to convict of sin, will speak not on his own but on behalf of Christ, will glorify Christ, thus exhibiting humility: John 16:7-14.
Is the Holy Spirit, in contrast to unholy spirits: Mark 3:22-30, cf. Matt. 12:32; 1 Tim. 4:1; 1 John 3:24-4:6.
Speaks, is quoted as speaking: John 16:13; Acts 1:16; 8:29; 10:19; 11:12; 13:2; 16:6; 20:23; 21:11; 28:25-27; 1 Tim. 4:1; Heb. 3:7-11; 10:15-17; 1 Pet. 1:11; Rev. 2:7, 2:11, 2:17, 2:29; 3:6, 3:13, 3:22.
Can be lied to: Acts 5:3
Can make decisions, judgments: Acts 15:28
Intercedes for Christians with the Father: Rom. 8:26
"Impersonal" language used of the Spirit paralled by language used of other persons
The Holy Spirit as fire: Matt. 3:11; Luke 3:16; cf. Ex. 3:2-4; Deut. 4:24; 9:3; Heb. 12:29
The Holy Spirit poured out: Acts 2:17, 2:33; cf. Isa. 53:12; Phil. 2:17; 2 Tim. 4:6
Being filled with the Holy Spirit: Eph. 5:18, etc.; cf. Eph. 3:17, 3:19; 4:10
The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit Are Distinct Persons
Matt. 28:19
"the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit": use of definite article before each personal noun indicates distinct persons unless explicitly stated otherwise; compare Rev. 1:17; 2:8, 2:26
The views that "Father" and "Son" are distinct persons but not the Holy Spirit, or that the Holy Spirit is not a person at all, or that all three are different offices or roles of one person, are impossible in view of the grammar (together with the fact that in Scripture a "spirit" is a person unless context shows otherwise).
Does singular "name" prove that the three are one person? No; cf. Gen. 5:2; 11:14; 48:6; and esp. Gen. 48:16
"Name" need not be personal name, may be title: Isa. 9:6; Matt. 1:23. If a single personal name is sought, the name shared by all three persons is "Yahweh" or "Jehovah."
Acts 2:38 and Matt. 28:19
Neither passage specifies that certain words are to be spoken during baptism; nor does the Bible ever record someone saying, "I baptize you in the name of…"
Those said to be baptized in the name of Jesus (whether or not the formula "in the name of Jesus" was used) were people already familiar with the God of the OT:
Jews: Acts 2:5, 2:38; 22:16
Samaritans: Acts 8:5, 8:12, 8:16
God-fearing Gentiles: Acts 10:1-2, 10:22, 10:48
Disciples of John the Baptist: Acts 19:1-5
The first Christians in Corinth were Jews and God-fearing Gentiles: Acts 18:1-8; 1 Cor. 1:13
Trinitarian formula for baptism (if that is what Matt. 28:19 is) was given in context of commissioning apostles to take the gospel to "all the nations," including people who did not know of the biblical God
God the Father and the Son Jesus Christ are two persons
The salutations: Rom. 1:7; 1 Cor. 1:3; 2 Cor. 1:2; Gal. 1:3; Eph. 1:2; 6:23; Phil. 1:2; 1 Thess. 1:1; 2 Thess. 1:1-2; 1 Tim. 1:1-2; 2 Tim. 1:2; Tit. 1:4; Phm. 3; James 1:1; 2 Pet. 1:2; 2 John 3
Two witnesses: John 5:31-32; 8:16-18; cf. Num. 35:30; Deut. 17:6; 19:15
The Father sent the Son: John 3:16-17; Gal. 4:4; 1 John 4:10; etc.; cf. John 1:6; 17:18; 20:21
The Father and the Son love each other: John 3:35; 5:20; 14:31; 15:9; 17:23-26; cf. Matt. 3:17 par.; Matt. 17:5 par.; 2 Pet. 1:17
The Father speaks to the Son, and the Son speaks to the Father: John 11:41-42; 12:28; 17:1-26; etc.
The Father knows the Son, and the Son knows the Father: Matt. 11:27; Luke 10:22; John 7:29; 8:55; 10:15
Jesus our Advocate with the Father: 1 John 2:1
Jesus is not God the Father
Isa. 9:6: "Father of eternity" means eternal; compare other names formed with word "father": Abialbon, "father of strength" = strong (2 Sam. 23:31); Abiasaph, "father of gathering" = gatherer (Ex. 6:24); Abigail, a woman's name(!), "father of exultation" = exulting (1 Chron. 2:16).
John 10:30
Jesus did not say, "I am the Father," nor did He say, "the Son and the Father are one person."
The first person plural esmen ("we are") implies two persons.
The neuter word for "one" (hen) is used, implying essential unity but not personal unity (compare John 17:21-23).
John 5:43: Jesus' coming in His Father's name means not that He was the Father because He had the Father's name, but that, while others come in their own name (or their own authority), Jesus does not; He comes in His Father's name (on His Father's authority).
John 8:19; 16:3: Ignorance of Jesus is indeed ignorance of the Father, but that does not prove that Jesus is the one He calls "My Father."
John 14:6-11
Jesus and the Father are one being, not one person.
Jesus said, "I am in the Father," not "I am the Father."
The statement, "the Father is in Me," does not mean Jesus is the Father; compare John 14:20; 17:21-23.
John 14:18: An older adult brother can care for his younger siblings, thus preventing them from being "orphans," without being their father.
Colossians 2:9: Does not mean that Jesus is the Father, or that Jesus is an incarnation of the Father; rather, since "Godhead" (theotês) means Deity, the state of being God, the nature of God, Jesus is fully God, but not the only person who is God. "The Godhead" here does not = the Father (note that Jesus is in the Father, John 10:38; 14:10, 14:11; 17:21), but the nature of the Father.
The Father and the Son are both involved in various activities: raising Jesus (Gal. 1:1; John 2:19-22), raising the dead (John 5:21; 6:39-40, 6:44, 6:54, 1 Cor. 6:14), answering prayer (John 14:13-14; 15:16; 16:23), sending the Holy Spirit (John 14:16; 15:26; 16:7), drawing people to Jesus (John 6:44; 12:32), etc. These common works do prove that the two persons are both God, but not that Jesus is the Father
The Son existed before his Incarnation, even before creation
Prov. 30:4: This is not predictive prophecy; "prophecy" in Prov. 30:1 translates massa, which is rendered elsewhere as "burden."
The Son created all things: See VI.E.1
Jesus was "with" (pros or para) God the Father before creation: John 1:1; 17:5; pros in John 1:1 does not mean "pertaining to," although it does in Hebrews 2:17; 5:1 (which use pros with ta).
Jesus, the Son of God, existed before John the Baptist (who was born before Jesus): John 1:15, cf. John 1:14-18, 1:29-34
Jesus, the Son, came down from heaven, sent from the Father, and went back to heaven, back to the Father: John 3:13, 3:31; 6:33; 6:38, 6:41, 6:46, 6:51, 6:56-58, 6:62; 8:23, 8:42; 13:3; 16:27-28; cf. Acts 1:10-11; cf. the sending of the Holy Spirit, John 16:5-7; 1 Pet. 1:12
Jesus, speaking as the Son (John 8:54-56), asserts His eternal preexistence before Abraham: John 8:58
The Son explicitly said to exist "before all things": Col. 1:17, cf. Col. 1:12-20
These statements cannot be dismissed as true only in God's foreknowledge
We are all "in God's mind" before creation; yet such passages as John 1:1 and John 17:5 clearly mean to say something unusual about Christ.
To say that all things were created through Christ means that He must have existed at creation.
No one else in Scripture is ever said to have been with God before creation.
Texts which speak of the Son being begotten "today" do not mean He became the Son on a certain day, since they refer to His exaltation at the resurrection (Acts 13:33; Heb. 1:3-5; 5:5; cf. Psa. 2:7; cf. also Rom. 1:4).
Jesus is not the Holy Spirit
The Holy Spirit is "another Comforter": John 14:16; compare 1 John 2:1.
Jesus sent the Holy Spirit: John 15:26; 16:7.
The Holy Spirit exhibits humility in relation to, and seeks to glorify, Jesus (John 16:13-14).
The Son and the Holy Spirit are distinguished as two persons in Matt. 28:19.
The Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus: Luke 3:22.
Is Jesus the Holy Spirit?
2 Cor. 3:17: the Spirit is here called "Lord" in the sense of being Yahweh or God, not Jesus (cf. 2 Cor. 3:16, citing Ex. 34:34; cf. 2 Cor. 3:17 in the Revised English Bible); note Acts 28:25-27, cf. Isa. 6:8-10.
1 Cor. 15:45: Jesus is "a life-giving Spirit," not in the sense that He is the Holy Spirit whom He sent at Pentecost, but in the sense that He is the glorified God-man; and as God He is Spirit by nature. All three persons of the Trinity are Spirit, though there are not three divine Spirits; and only one person is designated "the Holy Spirit."
Rom. 8:27, 8:34: the fact that two persons intercede for us is consistent with the fact that we have two Advocates (John 14:16; Rom. 8:26; 1 John 2:1).
John 14:18: Jesus here refers to His appearances to the disciples after the resurrection (compare John 14:19), not to the coming of the Spirit.
Jesus and the Holy Spirit are both involved in various activities: raising Jesus (John 2:19-22; Rom. 8:9-11), raising the dead (John 5:21; 6:39-40, 6:44, 6:54, Rom. 8:9-11), dwelling in the believer (John 14:16; 2 Cor. 13:5; Col. 1:27), interceding for the believer (Rom. 8:26; Heb. 7:25), sanctifying believers (Eph. 5:26; 1 Pet. 1:2), etc. These works prove that the two persons are both God, but not that Jesus is the Holy Spirit.
The Father is not the Holy Spirit
The Father sent the Holy Spirit: John 14:15; 15:26.
The Holy Spirit intercedes with the Father for us: Rom. 8:26-27.
The Father and the Holy Spirit are distinguished as two persons in Matt. 28:19.
Is the Father the Holy Spirit?
Matt. 1:18; Luke 1:35: It is argued that the Holy Spirit is the Father of the incarnate Son of God; this argument ignores the fact that the "conception" is not a product of physical union between a man and a woman!
The Father and the Holy Spirit are both said to be active in various activities; the resurrection of Jesus (Gal. 1:1; Rom. 8:11), comforting Christians (2 Cor. 1:3-4; John 14:26), sanctifying Christians (Jude 1; 1 Pet. 1:2), etc. The most these facts prove is that the two work together; they do not prove the two are one person.
Conclusion: The Bible teaches the Trinity
All the elements of the doctrine are taught in Scripture.
One God
The Father is God.
The Son is God.
The Holy Spirit is God.
The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three persons (i.e., they are not each other, nor are they impersonal; they relate to one another personally).
The New Testament presents a consistent triad of Father, Son, Holy Spirit (God, Christ, Spirit): Matt. 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:3-4; also Luke 1:35; 3:21-22 par.; Luke 4:1-12; John 4:10-25; 7:37-39; 7:14-16; 20:21-22; Acts 1:4-8; 2:33, 38-39; 5:3-4, 5:9, 5:30-32; 7:55-56; 10:36-38, 10:44-48; 11:15-18; 15:8-11; 20:38; 28:25-31; Rom. 1:1-4; 5:5-10; 8:2-4, 8:9-11, 8:14-17; 1 Cor. 6:11; 12:4-6, 12:11-12, 12:18; 2 Cor. 1:19-22; 3:6-8, 3:14-18; Gal. 3:8-14; 4:4-7; Eph. 1:3-17; 2:18, 2:21-22; 3:14-19; 4:4-6, 4:29-32; 5:18-20; Phil. 3:3; 1 Thess. 1:3-6; 2 Thess. 2:13-14; Tit. 3:4-6; Heb. 2:3-4; 9:14; 10:28-31; 1 Pet. 1:2; 1 John 3:21-24; 4:13-14; Jude 20-21; Rev. 2:18, 2:27-29.
Therefore, the Bible does teach the Trinity.
What Difference Does the Doctrine of the Trinity Make?
Sovereignty: Because the three persons have each other, we can be assured that God created us only to share the love they have and not as a means to His own end: Acts 17:25; John 17:21-26.
Mystery: The triune God is totally unlike anything in our world, and therefore greater than anything we can comprehend: Rom. 11:33-36; Isa. 40:18.
Salvation: God alone planned our salvation, came to save us, and dwells in us to complete our salvation: 1 Pet. 1:2; Eph. 1:3-18; etc.
Prayer: We pray to the Father through the Son, and also pray to the Son directly, in the Spirit: John 14:13-14; Eph. 2:18; etc.
Worship: We worship Father and Son in the Spirit: John 4:23-24; Phil. 3:3; Heb. 1:8; etc.
Love: The love among the three persons is the basis and model for our love for one another: John 17:26.
Unity: The unity of the three persons is the basis and model for the unity of the church: John 17:21-23.
Humility: As the persons of the Trinity seek the glory of each other, so we should seek the interests of others above our own: Phil. 2:5-11; John 16:13-14.
Sonship: We are "sons of God" as we are united with the Son of God by the work of the Holy Spirit and the adoption of the Father: John 1:12-23; Rom. 8:14-17.
Truth: All those who wish to worship and love God must seek to know Him as He is in truth, for God, as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, is truth: John 4:24; 14:6, 14:17; 15:26; 16:13.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/bowman_robert/trinity/trinity.cfm

[Daniel Marsh]

On 5/11/2020 at 1:19 AM, TrevorL said:

Greetings again Daniel, 

I appreciate the endorsement, but I will be interested to see if others disagree with what I have presented. Most of it is quoting appropriate Scriptures in their proper context. I suggest that the original article that you posted had evidence that they had seen a similar exposition as I presented and what he said in his article is his arguments against the perspective that Judges were called Elohim. I also suggest that if you accept the view that I presented, then this could have a bearing on the understanding of John 10:30-36 where Jesus denies that he is God and affirms that he is The Son of God. The view presented by your article is the method used to avoid the simple and clear teaching of John 10:30-36.

Another portion of the article is attached, and I suggest that not only does he not understand the use of the Hebrew word Elohim as applied to the Judges, he is also incorrect in his explanation of the use of the word Elohim applied to the Angels. I have deleted a few of the item numbers below, and hence the numbering is different.

I will not fully expound this as yet, but simply state that he is making the same mistake as he did with the Judges. The Judges were NOT gods, and neither are the Angels gods. But as with the Judges, the word Elohim IS USED for the Angels in Psalm 8:5 and again they are NOT gods, but represent God. All told there are a number of errors in this article above that you have initially endorsed.

Kind regards Trevor

Hebrews 1 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
God Has Spoken Through His Son
1 In the past God spoke to our people through the prophets. He spoke to them many times and in many different ways. 2 And now in these last days, God has spoken to us again through his Son. He made the whole world through his Son. And he has chosen his Son to have all things. 3 The Son shows the glory of God. He is a perfect copy of God’s nature, and he holds everything together by his powerful command. The Son made people clean from their sins. Then he sat down at the right side[a] of God, the Great One in heaven. 4 The Son became much greater than the angels, and God gave him a name that is much greater than any of their names.

5 God never said this to any of the angels:

“You are my Son.
    Today I have become your Father.”

God also never said about an angel,

“I will be his Father,
    and he will be my son.”

6 And then, when God presents his firstborn Son to the world, he says,

“Let all God’s angels worship him.”[c]

7 This is what God said about the angels:

“He changes his angels into winds[d]
    and his servants into flaming fire.”

8 But this is what he said about his Son:

“God, your kingdom will last forever and ever.
    You use your authority for justice.
9 You love what is right and hate what is wrong.
    So God, your God, has chosen you,
    giving you more honor and joy than anyone like you.”

10 God also said,

“O Lord, in the beginning you made the earth,
    and your hands made the sky.
11 These things will disappear, but you will stay.
    They will all wear out like old clothes.
12 You will fold them up like a coat,
    and they will be changed like clothes.
But you never change,
    and your life will never end.”

13 And God never said this to an angel:

“Sit at my right side
    until I put your enemies under your power.[e]”

14 All the angels are spirits who serve God and are sent to help those who will receive salvation.

Watchtower interpretations of Hebrews 1 does not exist among those that the Apostles taught, that being the church fathers.

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/240201.htm

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/240202.htm

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/240203.htm

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/2402.htm

 

[steve morrow]

I  TRUST  IN  THY  WORD  MY  LORD  KING

JOHN 12:44  JESUS   CRIED  and said he that believeth on  ME  believeth not on  ME  but on --- HIM  THAT  SENT  ME ---

ACTS 1:1  the former treatise have I made o theophilus of all that  JESUS  began both to do and to teach  --1:2-- until the day in which  HE  was taken up after that  HE  through the holy spirit had given commandments unto the apostles whom  HE  had chosen 

JOHN 12:49  for I have not spoken of myself but  THE  FATHER  which sent  ME  HE  gave  ME  a commandment what I should say and what I should speak

--12:50-- and I know that  HIS  commandment is life everlasting whatsoever I speak therefore even as  THE  FATHER  said unto  ME  so I speak

 

GALATIANS 1:1  paul an apostle not of men neither by man but by  JESUS  CHRIST  --and  GOD  THE  FATHER-- WHO  RAISED  HIM  FROM  THE  DEAD

ROMANS 6:4  therefore we are buried with  HIM  by baptism into death that like as  CHRIST  was raised up from the dead --BY  THE  GLORY  OF  THE  FATHER-- even so we also should walk --- IN  NEWNESS  OF  LIFE ---

ACTS 2:33  therefore being by the right hand of  GOD  exalted and having received ---OF  THE  FATHER  THE  PROMISE  OF  THE  HOLY  SPIRIT--- HE  hath shed forth that  which you now see and hear 

JOHN 3:34  for  HE  whom  GOD  hath sent speaketh the words of  GOD  FOR  GOD  giveth not the spirit by measure unto  HIM  --3:35--  THE  FATHER  LOVETH  THE  SON  -- and hath given all things into  HIS  hands 

 

ACTS 3:22  for moses truly said unto the fathers a prophet shall  THE  LORD  YOUR  GOD  raise up unto you of your brethren like unto me  HIM  shall you hear in all things whatsoever  HE  SHALL  SAY  unto you

--3:23-- and it shall come to pass that  EVERY  SOUL  which will not hear that prophet shall be destroyed from among the people 

 

ROMANS 1:18  FOR  THE  WRATH  OF  GOD  IS  REVEALED  FROM  HEAVEN  AGAINST  --ALL  UNGODLINESS  AND  UNRIGHTEOUSNESS-- OF  MEN  WHO  HOLD  THE  TRUTH  IN  UNRIGHTEOUSNESS

 

LOVING  THE  LORD  JESUS  CHRIST 

 

[steve morrow]

I  AND  THE  FATHER  ARE  ONE 

 

GENESIS 2:24  therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother and shall cleave unto his wife and they shall --BE  ONE  FLESH--

MATTHEW 19:5  and said for this cause shall a man leave father and mother and shall cleave to his wife and they twain shall be one flesh 

 

PHILIPPIANS 1:27  only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of  CHRIST  that whether I come and see you or else be absent I may hear of your affairs --- THAT  YOU  STAND  FAST  IN  ONE  SPIRIT --- with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel 

PHILIPPIANS 2:2  fulfil you my joy that you be likeminded having the same love being of one accord --OF  ONE  MIND--

EPHESIANS 2:18  for through  HIM  we both have access by one spirit unto  THE  FATHER

1 CORINTHIANS 12:13  for by one spirit are we all baptized into one body whether we be --JEWS  OR  GENTILES-- whether we be bond or free and have been made to drink into  ONE  SPIRIT

PHILIPPIANS 2:5  let this mind be in you which was also in  CHRIST  JESUS  --2:6-- who being in the form of  GOD  thought it not robbery to be equal  with  GOD

 

JOHN 10:30  I  AND  MY  FATHER  ARE  ONE 

JOHN 5:21  for as  THE FATHER  raiseth up the dead and quickeneth them even so  THE  SON  quickeneth whom  HE  will 

JOHN 6:63  it is the spirit that quickeneth the flesh profiteth nothing the words that I speak unto you they are spirit and they are life 

JOHN 5:30  I can of mine ownself do nothing as I hear I judge and  MY  judgement is just because I seek not mine own will but the will of  THE  FATHER  that sent  ME 

 

1 TIMOTHY 2:5  FOR  THERE  IS  ONE  GOD  AND  ONE  MEDIATOR  BETWEEN  GOD  AND  MEN  --THE  MAN  JESUS  CHRIST-- 

 

ECCLESIASTES 12:10  the preacher sought to find out acceptable words and that which was written was upright even words of truth  --12:11-- the words of the wise are as goads and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies which are given by ---ONE  SHEPHERD---

 

JOHN 10:14  I  AM  THE  GOOD  SHEPHERD  AND  KNOW  MY  SHEEP  AND  AM  KNOWN  OF  MINE --10:15-- AS  THE  FATHER  KNOWETH  ME  EVEN  SO  KNOW  I  THE  FATHER  AND  I  LAY  DOWN  MY  LIFE  FOR  THE  SHEEP

 

LOVING  THE  LORD  JESUS  CHRIST

[Ervin P]

I have searched the internet for a list of non Trinitarian views and on an interfaith forum I found the following which I am going to paste:

1. Matthew 24:36 
No one knows about that day or hour, not even the Son, but the Father only. 
Here Jesus makes a distinction between what he knows and what the Father knows. 

2. Matthew 26:39 
My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me, yet not as I will, but as Thou will. 
Jesus’ will is likewise autonomous from God’s Will. Jesus is seeking acquiescence to God’s will.

3. John 5:26 
For as the Father has life in Himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. 
Jesus received his life from God. God received his life from no one. He is eternally self-existent. 

4. John 5:30 
By myself, I can do nothing: I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who has sent me. 
Jesus says, “by myself, I can do nothing.” This indicates that Jesus is relying upon his own relationship with God. He is not trying to “please myself” but rather is seeking to “please the one who sent me.”

5. John 5:19 
The Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees the Father doing, because whatever the Father does, the Son does also. 
Jesus declares that he is following a pattern laid down by God. He is expressing obedience to God.

6. Mark 10:18 
Why do you call me good? No one is good, except God alone. 
Here Jesus emphatically makes a distinction between himself and God.

7. John 14:28 
The Father is greater than I. 
This is another strong statement that makes a distinction between Jesus and God.

8. Matthew 6:9 
Our Father, which art in Heaven. 
He didn’t pray, Our Father, which art standing right here!”

9. Matthew 27:46 
My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me? 
Inconceivable if he is God the Creator.

10. John 17:21-23 
. . .that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. . ..that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. 
In this prayer Jesus defines the term “to be one.” It is clearly accomplished through the relationship of two autonomous beings. Christian believers are to model their relationship (to become one) after the relationship of God and Christ (as God and Christ are one). Notice that “to be one” does not mean to be “one and the same.”

11. 1 Corinthians 15:27-28 
For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. 
Paul declares that God put everything under Christ, except God himself. Instead God rules all things through Christ. (remember: “through him all things were made.”)

12. Hebrews 1:3 
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being. 
Jesus is the exact representation of his being. I send my representative to Congress. He is not me, myself. He is my representative.

13. Hebrews 4:15 (compared with James 1:13) 
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet without sin. 
Jesus has been tempted in every way, just as we are, yet he never sinned. See 

James 1:13: When tempted, no one should say, God is tempting me. For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt. 
Jesus was tempted in every way, but God cannot be tempted. This is why Jesus said, “don’t call me good, none are good, only God.”

14. Hebrews 5:7-9 
During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him 
Jesus had to walk a course of faith and obedience in order to achieve perfection. By achieving perfection, Jesus “became” the source of eternal salvation

 

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[Justin Adams]

On 7/1/2020 at 1:15 AM, Daniel Marsh said:

Demons, not gods, are the power behind false worship

Demon are just the disembodied spirits of dead nephilim. Do not confuse demons with the sons of God in Hie Divine Council.

The 'sons of god' in Psalm 82 are His Heavenly Council. They failed the nations they were to watch over and "will die like men".

Deut 32 8 gives the table of nation the Sons of God were supposed to watch over.

Judges are NEVER called elohim (disembodied spirits) the wrong translation of the phrase 'sons of God' (rendered as sons of Israel) has been corrected due to the overwhelming Qumran evidence.

Likewise, Augustine's 'sons of Seth' is absolutely wrong. Augustine's history permeated his views (Manichaeism). He no doubt affected Jerome's work too. Sadly, some seminaries still teach Augustine's ideas that the RCC readily latched onto since it gave their priestly class control over their believing subjects.

Much theology has been spun around improper use of the older translations and transliterations.

Psalm 82 is quite correct in that the Divine Council is seen. Psalm 89: 6 For who in the skies can compare with the LORD? Who among the heavenly beings is like the LORD?  So no human is in the sky with God, just his holy ones, his heavenly beings.

God scattered the disobedient Babel nations and put the 70 lesser sons of God in charge of them. They rebelled and caused mankind to invent all kinds of pantheons. God indicted them in Psalm 82, but these territorial spirits (principalities and powers) still try to hang on to their (now) tenuous position. At the cross, Yeshua was given all power over these fallen beings and Yeshua said, "the gates of hell will not prevail against the church". 

But they will try and the false worship mentioned is one of the hallmarks of fallen sons of God.

 

Edited July 7, 2020 by Justin Adams