Salvation...Can it be lost???

[toothless]

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Regarding Judas:

You wrote:

Matthew 7:22

"Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?"

.

If you read the Scripture before this, verse 21 you will get the whole picture for here Jesus stated "Not every one that sayeth, Lord, Lord shall enter the kingdom of heaven but HE THAT DOETH THE WILL of my Father which is in heaven" (Matt. 7:21). Regarding this statement alone we must believe that if one ceases to DO THE WILL of God, one will lose eternal life and not enter the kingdom of God unless one comes back to repentance and Godliness again.

I don't need your help to understand what the text is explaining, it is emphatic in and of it's self

the proof of miricles is not proof of loyalty There is no mention of the going or coming, just another

addition that isn't there.

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You also wrote:

"His duties as treasurer displayed his inherent selfishness, all your references to Judas are as a member of the group, each person is saved by their personal commitment to Christ not the company we keep."

.

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I ask, where are your Scriptures to back up what you have stated?

Are you now asking for scripture that proves salvation is indiviual not corporate.

For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.

The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor.

4But one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, who was later to betray him, objected, 5"Why wasn't this perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth a year's wages." 6He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it.

In Scripture we have statements that Judas was to be a man who was a "familiar friend" of Christ who ate of His bread, which is an idiom of very close friendship (Ps. 41:9). He was not an enemy of Christ, but an equal in grace, a guide, and a sweet acquaintance (Ps. 55:12-13). He was to have his habitation desolate and be blotted out of the book of the living (Ps. 69:25-28 with Acts 1:20), and he was to have "another take his place" in the Christian ministry and in the kingship over one of the tribes of Israel (Ps. 109:8). All these passages were fulfilled in Judas according to Matt. 26:24; John 13:18; Acts 1:16-25).

This is insanity what a cultist thought process, the quote from ps. 41:9 is Christ said he trusted him

it was not returned by Judas.

Judas pretending to Christ's friend does not make him saved.

Judas was given eternal life when Christ gave His all His disciples which the Father had given Him eternal life (John 17:2).

This blantant error verse 12 clearly states Judas is excluded and if you read the context you would

see that Judas left long before the prayer, he was not there.

The Holy Spirit, whom I believe speaks only from the Holy Word of God and therefore only the TRUTH records in Acts 1:15-17:

This so incredibly bad the text offers no clues as to Judas's salvation.

"And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples and said, (the number of the names together were about an hundred and twenty,)

Men and bretheren, this Scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was a guide to them that took Jesus.

For he was numbered with us, HAD OBTAINED PART OF THIS MINISTRY."

So What!!! Yes he was there he participated so what it does not prove loss of salvation or ever having it.

And in Acts 1:20; "Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his BISHOPRIC LET ANOTHER TAKE." So he was a saved apostle after all for what he had another took. Another was put in his place.

Verse 24-26: "And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, That he may take part of this ministry FROM WHICH BY TRANSGRESSION (sin) JUDAS FELL, . . . And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Mathias; and he was numbered with THE ELEVEN APOSTLES" (Acts 1:24-26). Judas, by no other means lost his eternal life because "by transgression he fell."

You have not presented one microscopic shredd of evidence that he ever had salvation.

God is no respecter of persons and God would never create any person and set them up to suffer eternal death and damnation in Hell to further His plan for men! God does not predestinate any particular person including Judas to be saved or lost. This is plainly taught in many passages which teach that EVERY MAN is a free moral agent and is saved or lost by his own free choice in the manner of accepting or rejecting salvation through Jesus Christ (John 3:14-16; 1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9; Rev. 22;17).

I see these straw dog arguments by every abborant faith, they claim God's not fair if, then they

present their case, well I never said God condemed Judas unfairly he screwed up the worst way

any human ever did, you claim God gave him salvation then yanked it away, that seems more

unfair than never having had it.

You also have cronology problems, Judas was the last of disciples chosen and most likely spent

no more than a year with Christ before he was identified as having a demon, after the feeding of the

five thousand, this also coincides with the return of the tweleve, so after the return from which YOU

claim they had done miricles and proclaimed the gospel Christ is declairing Judas to have a demon.

To believe otherwise would be to believe that God the Father gave Judas to Jesus, as a sinner, that he was never saved, and as a sinner, and an associate of the devil God allowed him to represent the kingdom of God on Earth, enabled him to do miricals, heale the sick, that God the Father set Judas up to betray Jesus and offered him no way of salvation, salvation that is offered to every man woman and child that ever was born and is yet to be born, but not Judas . . . ?

Here is another straw dog oh how horrible God is he never offer Judas salvation, he rejected it

no one has said he wasn't offered it.

No this can never be. Judas was a saved man, a familiar friend of Jesus, his name was written in the book of life and it was removed and another took his place, because "by transgression" Judas fell, and not because he was predestined to fall to fulfill God's plan for man.

My cult believes this it must be true.

As they say, "good luck with that".

[MrSealedEternal]

What do we need to do? What does the Bible say we need to do? By "walking it out," I mean living out what God commands. I am talking about taking what the Bible says we are to do, and do it. Not because we are trying to hold on to salvation, but because these things are what we desire to do. The Christian life is not a grocery list of commands to follow, it is living, relationship with our Heavenly Father. The works we do, we do naturally. Where true Christians are concerned, these things flow out of us like water. But in the case of relgionists, everyday is just "do, do, do." Well at least until they get tired of "doing" all the time and decide that it is not worth it and go live in sin. But they were not Christians anyway, so that should not come as any surprise.

Could you please elaborate on the first section highlighted in red andwhat happens to a Christian when he gets tired of "doing" and gives up?

You don't get tired when you're not laboring in the first place. The reason you view things the way you do, is because your religion is work to you. Real Christians enjoy serving the Lord, because we have his Spirit in us, and we are looking forward to our eternity which He has secured for us. You on the other hand are laboring away, hoping you can endure to the end, and be good enough to merit salvation because you don't have his Spirit. You're probably going to burn out at some point, and then claim you have lost your salvation, but the truth is that you will have never had it.

Mr SE

[Kabowd]

What do we need to do? What does the Bible say we need to do? By "walking it out," I mean living out what God commands. I am talking about taking what the Bible says we are to do, and do it. Not because we are trying to hold on to salvation, but because these things are what we desire to do. The Christian life is not a grocery list of commands to follow, it is living, relationship with our Heavenly Father. The works we do, we do naturally. Where true Christians are concerned, these things flow out of us like water. But in the case of relgionists, everyday is just "do, do, do." Well at least until they get tired of "doing" all the time and decide that it is not worth it and go live in sin. But they were not Christians anyway, so that should not come as any surprise.

Could you please elaborate on the first section highlighted in red andwhat happens to a Christian when he gets tired of "doing" and gives up?

You don't get tired when you're not laboring in the first place. The reason you view things the way you do, is because your religion is work to you. Real Christians enjoy serving the Lord, because we have his Spirit in us, and we are looking forward to our eternity which He has secured for us. You on the other hand are laboring away, hoping you can endure to the end, and be good enough to merit salvation because you don't have his Spirit. You're probably going to burn out at some point, and then claim you have lost your salvation, but the truth is that you will have never had it.

Mr SE

You are wrong in this statment because you don't understand or believe. I love my God and Christ very much and that is why I obey him. "If ye love me, keep my commandments" John 14:15

Notice that "love" comes before obedience. A heart that has not been changed is hellbent, it is set against God. Therefore, a person cannot obey their way to salvation. Salvation [heart change, new identity, death to life] must occur first. Then obedience to Christ follows.

[Guest shiloh357]

What do we need to do? What does the Bible say we need to do? By "walking it out," I mean living out what God commands. I am talking about taking what the Bible says we are to do, and do it. Not because we are trying to hold on to salvation, but because these things are what we desire to do. The Christian life is not a grocery list of commands to follow, it is living, relationship with our Heavenly Father. The works we do, we do naturally. Where true Christians are concerned, these things flow out of us like water. But in the case of relgionists, everyday is just "do, do, do." Well at least until they get tired of "doing" all the time and decide that it is not worth it and go live in sin. But they were not Christians anyway, so that should not come as any surprise.

Could you please elaborate on the first section highlighted in red andwhat happens to a Christian when he gets tired of "doing" and gives up?

Well, that's just it. When it is a natural product of you are in Christ, you don't get tired and just give up, any more than you get tired of breathing. Its different than the religionist who is working to support his facade. That is why I make that distinction. That does not mean that we don't get weary at times, but it is different than someone who just chucks it all and decides one morning to live in sin. A true Christian, according to Scripture, does not do that. We may fall in times of weakness and discouragement, but that is when grace finds its highest value; not as a license to sin, but as the ever present source of God's mercy.

[Guest shiloh357]

Duh... Yeah. I have been trying to make that clarificatoin with cardcaptor. In his stark confusion he takes verses that are describing what the Christian life should look like when lived out, and interpreting those verses as if they are describing how salvation is attained. I have never said that works were not "required." I am saying that works are not required for salvation. Cardcaptor says they are.

I am saying that works are not required for salvation. Cardcaptor says they are.

Herein lies much of the confusion on this thread

[HAZARD]

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Regarding Judas:

You wrote:

Matthew 7:22

"Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?"

.

If you read the Scripture before this, verse 21 you will get the whole picture for here Jesus stated "Not every one that sayeth, Lord, Lord shall enter the kingdom of heaven but HE THAT DOETH THE WILL of my Father which is in heaven" (Matt. 7:21). Regarding this statement alone we must believe that if one ceases to DO THE WILL of God, one will lose eternal life and not enter the kingdom of God unless one comes back to repentance and Godliness again.

I don't need your help to understand what the text is explaining, it is emphatic in and of it's self

the proof of miricles is not proof of loyalty There is no mention of the going or coming, just another

addition that isn't there.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You also wrote:

"His duties as treasurer displayed his inherent selfishness, all your references to Judas are as a member of the group, each person is saved by their personal commitment to Christ not the company we keep."

.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I ask, where are your Scriptures to back up what you have stated?

Are you now asking for scripture that proves salvation is indiviual not corporate.

For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.

The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor.

4But one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, who was later to betray him, objected, 5"Why wasn't this perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth a year's wages." 6He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it.

In Scripture we have statements that Judas was to be a man who was a "familiar friend" of Christ who ate of His bread, which is an idiom of very close friendship (Ps. 41:9). He was not an enemy of Christ, but an equal in grace, a guide, and a sweet acquaintance (Ps. 55:12-13). He was to have his habitation desolate and be blotted out of the book of the living (Ps. 69:25-28 with Acts 1:20), and he was to have "another take his place" in the Christian ministry and in the kingship over one of the tribes of Israel (Ps. 109:8). All these passages were fulfilled in Judas according to Matt. 26:24; John 13:18; Acts 1:16-25).

This is insanity what a cultist thought process, the quote from ps. 41:9 is Christ said he trusted him

it was not returned by Judas.

Judas pretending to Christ's friend does not make him saved.

Judas was given eternal life when Christ gave His all His disciples which the Father had given Him eternal life (John 17:2).

This blantant error verse 12 clearly states Judas is excluded and if you read the context you would

see that Judas left long before the prayer, he was not there.

The Holy Spirit, whom I believe speaks only from the Holy Word of God and therefore only the TRUTH records in Acts 1:15-17:

This so incredibly bad the text offers no clues as to Judas's salvation.

"And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples and said, (the number of the names together were about an hundred and twenty,)

Men and bretheren, this Scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was a guide to them that took Jesus.

For he was numbered with us, HAD OBTAINED PART OF THIS MINISTRY."

So What!!! Yes he was there he participated so what it does not prove loss of salvation or ever having it.

And in Acts 1:20; "Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his BISHOPRIC LET ANOTHER TAKE." So he was a saved apostle after all for what he had another took. Another was put in his place.

Verse 24-26: "And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, That he may take part of this ministry FROM WHICH BY TRANSGRESSION (sin) JUDAS FELL, . . . And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Mathias; and he was numbered with THE ELEVEN APOSTLES" (Acts 1:24-26). Judas, by no other means lost his eternal life because "by transgression he fell."

You have not presented one microscopic shredd of evidence that he ever had salvation.

God is no respecter of persons and God would never create any person and set them up to suffer eternal death and damnation in Hell to further His plan for men! God does not predestinate any particular person including Judas to be saved or lost. This is plainly taught in many passages which teach that EVERY MAN is a free moral agent and is saved or lost by his own free choice in the manner of accepting or rejecting salvation through Jesus Christ (John 3:14-16; 1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9; Rev. 22;17).

I see these straw dog arguments by every abborant faith, they claim God's not fair if, then they

present their case, well I never said God condemed Judas unfairly he screwed up the worst way

any human ever did, you claim God gave him salvation then yanked it away, that seems more

unfair than never having had it.

You also have cronology problems, Judas was the last of disciples chosen and most likely spent

no more than a year with Christ before he was identified as having a demon, after the feeding of the

five thousand, this also coincides with the return of the tweleve, so after the return from which YOU

claim they had done miricles and proclaimed the gospel Christ is declairing Judas to have a demon.

To believe otherwise would be to believe that God the Father gave Judas to Jesus, as a sinner, that he was never saved, and as a sinner, and an associate of the devil God allowed him to represent the kingdom of God on Earth, enabled him to do miricals, heale the sick, that God the Father set Judas up to betray Jesus and offered him no way of salvation, salvation that is offered to every man woman and child that ever was born and is yet to be born, but not Judas . . . ?

Here is another straw dog oh how horrible God is he never offer Judas salvation, he rejected it

no one has said he wasn't offered it.

No this can never be. Judas was a saved man, a familiar friend of Jesus, his name was written in the book of life and it was removed and another took his place, because "by transgression" Judas fell, and not because he was predestined to fall to fulfill God's plan for man.

My cult believes this it must be true.

As they say, "good luck with that".

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Can you please tell me this? If Judas was not saved, and if Judas by TRANSGRESSION FELL, then what did he fall from . . ?

And if as you say he was not a saved man who, "by transgression fell," are you saying God set Judas up to be damned for all eternity, with no chance of repenting as Peter did three times?

Haz.

[RGR]

We have read many scriptures stating that god will never leave nor forsake us. Yet we find that when I decide that I want sin more than God I am rejected because I first rejected him. If I am striving to do his will then of course he is always with me.

Again, for the record, I am not, nor have ever been, of the OSAS belief. The above statement is like fingernails on a chalkboard for me. Are you a parent? I am and let me tell you something, I am not going to disown my child because he's going to "test the waters" and see what he can get by with. I am still going to love him and I will be waiting for him with open arms when he makes enough of a mess of his life that he realizes that I was right! I don't reject him. I may leave him alone (if he was older) to make some mistakes to prove a point, but I'm not going to reject him!

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE(shiloh357 @ Dec 31 2005, 01:38 AM)

I have already clarified enough. I am not talking about faith and repentance. The issue between cardcaptor and I whether or not we have to earn our salvation; whether or not we have to perform good deeds in order to maintain our salvation. So, either engage me on what we are talking about, or expect any further posts of yours to be ignored.

My contention is not earning our salvation nor "performing good deed". I have stated many times that we maintain our salvation by our obedience to the gospel/doctrine/law of Christ.

Your contention has been that getting saved is not a guarantee of eternal life. Your contention that WE maintain our salvation is unbiblical. Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our faith. Your contention makes YOU the finisher, not Jesus. Salvation, from beginning to end, is a work of Christ. Your contention is not the Bible's contention. You are making yourself the finisher and in doing so, robbing Christ of His due glory.

This has been repeatedly backed by the scripture in:

2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Anybody can perform "good deeds", but it takes a love for God and my own soul to obey God and Christ by living and following the doctrine that was laid down for us.

God commanding us to obey him does not take away from my love for them. Yes love comes first, but I think people either aren't considering or aren't believing that by disobedience has consequences.

The above Scripture does not back up your contention at all. 2 John 1:9 is talking about those who reject the doctrine of Christ. Do you even know what the doctrine of Christ is???? The doctrine of Christ concerns who Jesus is. It concerns His person as the Son of God, and Son of man and the union of those two natures. It concerns Him as Mediator and guarantor of the New Covenant, incarnation, obedience, sufferings, death, resurrection from the dead, ascension to heaven, session at God's right hand, intercession for his people, and second coming to judgment; concerning peace and pardon by his blood, atonement by his sacrifice, justification by his righteousness, and complete salvation by him. (John Gill)

John is saying that those who go outside the limits of Christian doctrine, and does not accept what the biblical doctrine concerning Jesus, and His Deity, has not God, and is not a believer. John goes on to say that we are not to accept those who reject and teach others to reject the doctrine of Christ into our homes.

Whe a Christian wakes up one day and decides that he doens't want to live Christianity anymore, which I have seen, they turn their back on God and on the grace given.

Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

No, you have not seen it. What you have seen are those who can no longer hold on to their false profession and choose to live in unrepentant sin. They were never Christians if they can just walk away from the Lord with no remorse, no fear, no compunction, whatsoever. What you think you saw, and what you actually did see, are two different things.

Hebrews 10:23-39 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;) And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions; Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used. For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance. Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

This is talking about Christians as it starts out holding fast the prefession of our faith.

This is warning to Jews about going to back to the Old Testament economy. That is the "willful sin" that is being addressed here. Jews who were believers but go back to the Old sacrificial system have denied Christ. They have insulted and blasphemed the Spirit of grace, they have trodden under foot the Son of God and have treated His blood as common and mundane thus in effect, denied his Divinity. The Writer of Hebrews is saying that for such a person, there is no sacrifice for sin. They have denied the Messiah and have chosen to reject Him. In doing so, there is no redemption since they have placed themselves beyond it.

Ezekiel 18:21-24 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

The righteous, whether of the Old Testament or the New Testament, if they turn from thier righteousness and committ iniquity will die.

This is a stipulation that God has set down from the biginning of time.

In Ezekiel, God is talking to Israel and their insincere righteousness. One of the marks of an apostate is that they were never truly righteous, as God defines righteousness. As it says:

They went out from us, but they were not of us: for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. (1 John 2:19)

God is talking about those who turn to complete, and irretrievable wickedness from their apparent righteousness. Those who are truly born again "persevere" (to borrow a term from the Calvinists).

Again, you are trying to force an impossible scenario. While it is possible for Christians to fall into sin in times of weakness and discouragement, it is not possible for a Christian who is truly born of God to decide one day to just chuck it all out the window. That is not the Biblical view, though it may be yours.

As for Hebrews 6:4-6... taking it at your face value approach a person who falls in to say, fornication, could never be saved again. This is similar to what is being said in chapter 10. This talking about apostasy, not simply falling into sin. For the unrepentant apostate there is no sacrifice, no provision.

Titus 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

How can i read these scriptures and say that works are not a part of my salvation when this says they are good and profitable to men. If I believe in God the I mith be careful to maintain good works.

Titus 1:15-16 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Let's look at what else it says in Titus:

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

(Titus 3:5-7)

[Guest shiloh357]

[Guest shiloh357]

Thank you Horizoneast,

"Now I don