Salvation...Can it be lost???

[toothless]

I

[Guest shiloh357]

Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

This scripture is the definition of grace. Do you want the other ones that go along with this?

No, it is a defintion of salvation. It is grace that makes us able to appropriate what is described in Eph 2:5

Colossians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

You notice the simularities in these verses?

Remember, I read ALL the scriptures and apply ALL of them. Your faith and religion is based soley on GRACE while mine is based on all of the doctrine of Christ.

No, my faith and "religion" is based solely on Christ. YOU may read all of the Scriptures, but you are sloppy in your handling of them, and pull out of them what you want and then read your own silly subjective definitions and beliefs into the Bible to conform it to your "theology." Who have no concept of the true doctrine of Christ.

Below are verses that don't include the word "grace" that tells us how we are saved. There are more but these are enough. I would like to make the point that it takes more than just mere faith and grace to fulfill our salvation.

You are taking our the verses that mention grace and building you faith and religion around that. I could take any of these verses and do the same thing you are doing with "grace". You have to use all of the verses that mention grace, faith, and all of the ones below to see what the plan of salvation is. If you leave any of these out you are shorting the hand of God unto salvation. That is why it says, "Faith without works is dead". Grace and faith without all of these other factors is also dead.

I.e. what if I took the scripture that says we are saved by hope and built my religion just on that? Would that work? Or the one below that says, "godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation", and just believed in that? Would that work?

Apply the "grace" only salvation belief on all of the below scriptures and tell me if that works. We need to combine them all.

2 Corinthians 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

1 Timothy 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

James 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

Jude 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Romans 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

1 Corinthians 15:1-2 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

You know what, Carcaptor? I can do the same thing you do. I can find a bunch of verses, rip them out of context and make them say whatever I want them to say.

See, you left one out of your list... How about this one: Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

(1 Timothy 2:11-15)

Should we take v.15 to mean that women are saved by childbirth??? If I approached this verse with the same lack of skill that you demonstrate on these boards, I could create a doctrine that says that only women who have borne children are saved. That is same absurd approach that you take with the rest of the Bible.

Actually the verses you quoted above, If I had the time to exegete everone of them demonstrate that both faith and grace are all that is required for a person to be saved. When taken in the context that they appear, and when exegeted properly beautifully support what I believe. For one thing, "saved" and "salvation" do not always refer to eternal salvation. It is futile for you to attempt to use the Bible support your works-based theology. It simply doesn't.

[toothless]

Shilo 357.

I've got a question for you, what denomination are these pro works people from,

there seems to be a heavy emphisis on works at this web site.

Good job on the divinity of Christ issues, I would add that your explaination of the

Hebrews text is good, but I go so far as to say that the references to loss of salvation

in the texts are really just the early pre-converts to Christ playing around with the idea

of a new means of salvation, in that the Hebrew believers did have a knowledge of the

divine system but chose to look at Christ as the possible end of the sacrificial system,

but not beleive or become fully converted, so they drew back. They could not go back

yet would not go forward.

Missunderstanding James around here seems to be in vogue also.

Bill.

[RGR]

Shilo 357.

I've got a question for you, what denomination are these pro works people from,

there seems to be a heavy emphisis on works at this web site.

Good job on the divinity of Christ issues, I would add that your explaination of the

Hebrews text is good, but I go so far as to say that the references to loss of salvation

in the texts are really just the early pre-converts to Christ playing around with the idea

of a new means of salvation, in that the Hebrew believers did have a knowledge of the

divine system but chose to look at Christ as the possible end of the sacrificial system,

but not beleive or become fully converted, so they drew back. They could not go back

yet would not go forward.

Missunderstanding James around here seems to be in vogue also.

Bill.

Bill,

I know you asked Dave (Shiloh357) but maybe I could answer? We are non-denominational here at Worthy; as long as one agrees on the basics (Christ born of a virgin, coming again, etc.) then you are classified as a member and are pretty well free, within reason, to debate said issues. It could be OSAS vs. non-OSAS, pre-trib vs. post-trib, etc. Just because you see a certain subject being debated in the positive doesn't mean that Worthy itself promotes these ideas. Among our moderators/watchmen you'll see a variety of beliefs as far as these type of things, but an agreeance on the basics! Again, as I said previously, we as a website are non-denom!

[toothless]

Bill,

I know you asked Dave (Shiloh357) but maybe I could answer? We are non-denominational here at Worthy; as long as one agrees on the basics (Christ born of a virgin, coming again, etc.) then you are classified as a member and are pretty well free, within reason, to debate said issues. It could be OSAS vs. non-OSAS, pre-trib vs. post-trib, etc. Just because you see a certain subject being debated in the positive doesn't mean that Worthy itself promotes these ideas. Among our moderators/watchmen you'll see a variety of beliefs as far as these type of things, but an agreeance on the basics! Again, as I said previously, we as a website are non-denom!

[RGR]

I was trying to determine the denominial origins of the non-osas

posters, it gives me a chance to do a little research to find out where they are coming from.

Personally I don't believe OSAS and I am Pentecostal. As for the denominal beliefs of others who aren't OSAS, I really don't know. I really try to stay out of the OSAS debates, lol!

[Guest shiloh357]

Shilo 357.

I've got a question for you, what denomination are these pro works people from,

there seems to be a heavy emphisis on works at this web site.

Good job on the divinity of Christ issues, I would add that your explaination of the

Hebrews text is good, but I go so far as to say that the references to loss of salvation

in the texts are really just the early pre-converts to Christ playing around with the idea

of a new means of salvation, in that the Hebrew believers did have a knowledge of the

divine system but chose to look at Christ as the possible end of the sacrificial system,

but not beleive or become fully converted, so they drew back. They could not go back

yet would not go forward.

Missunderstanding James around here seems to be in vogue also.

Bill.

I don't know what denom they are from. What we have on this board is an interesting twist on the "works-based" salvation nonsense. Some people on this board incorrectly believe that we really can't know if we have eternal life or not. People like cardcaptor believe that after we get saved, we have to to the works that make us worthy of eternal life. In his theology, grace is only for those who are worthy of it, which is the antithesis of the meaning and value of grace. The person who needs it the most, according to cardcaptor, is the one from whom it is taken. In his theology salvation is only for the worthy, and for those who worked for it. So, according to people like him, we are saved in order to become worthy of eternal life. Its like filling out an application, but not knowing until you die if God accepted your application. Utter rubbish!!

As for the emphasis on works... You will find that it is only among the members who are not part of the ministry personnel on this site. We are in constant battles it seems with those who think that they have to work their way into God's favor. Jesus is just not good enough for some people.

You are correct, James is highly misunderstood. It comes from picking out key verses and words and apply one's own subjective meaning to those words, and from ripping verses out of their natural context.

[Rania]

That wasn't very nice.

[Guest shiloh357]

You don't really know how wrong you are. You just aren't listening to what is being said. You are in sucha a defence for your belief that you miss what others say. We are totally relying on Christ for our salvation. We are also relying on the fact of that Christ said if you love me keep my commandments. Our works are the keeping of the commandments when he said to take our cross and follow him by deying ourselves. Don't you get this? It really isn't that hard.

You just made my point. Jesus said that if you love me, you will keep my commandments. Jesus did not say, I only love you if you keep my commandments. Keeping His commandments is evidence that we love Jesus. It is not how we procure His love, nor is it how we procure salvation. As to your nonsense about totally relying on Christ. No you don't. You are depending on being good enough to enter heaven. You are depending on your works to secure your salvation. Jesus is not good enough for you.

If we were not supposed to have works then we would have been told to work out our salvation nor would we be told that we would be judged by them here and on the judgment day.

The problem here is that you equate "working out" with "working for." Working out your salvation in the Greek means to put it on display to live it out in front of other people. It does not mean work for your salvation because you are going to be judged. Like I said, I have already been judged. I have been judged righteous. If you are at the great white throne, then you are on your way to hell.

Your reasoning for Demas was totally wrong. Nowhere does it say that he left so that he wouldn't have to go through what Paul would. It says that he left for the love of this present world. He left for his preference of the world.

No, I am not wrong. You have no grounds other than your subjective interpretation to conjure up the silly idea that Demas was once righteous and then left Paul to go live in sin. The text does not say that. Paul said that he loved this "present world." That simply means that he preferred to live in this world as opposed to being martyred. Paul is not saying that Demas left him to go live in the world system of sin. To draw that from the text is just your nonsensical approach.

Kings Saul and Solomon had to be right before God at one time because I see nowhere in the bible where God chose any heathen to be a king over his people

You see, yes, we are saved by grace, but if follow the leads that Saul, Solomon, and Demas did I will lose that grace and find myself like them.

They are not examples of "saved" people. Nowhere in the Bible are they held up as standard bearers. Nowhere does the Bible commend them as being "righteous."

Except that Neither Solomon or Saul are ever called "saved," and you have no evidence that Demas lost his salvation. You are simply twisting in the wind with that one.

You spend a lot of time discrediting scriptures so that they won't apply to the situations they are to be applied for and learned from.

No, I am discrediting your sloppy mishandling of the Scriptures.

I will have to say this though, your behavior and demeanor towards those you disagree with is both appolling and embarrassing. You down grade people when you disagree with them. The comments and accusations that you have been throwing around on these boards is very unprofessional. Where are the fruits of the Spirit you are to display to other people?

I am tired of people like you who come this board and attempt to shipwreck the faith of younger believers. I find myself having to repeat myself over and over with you, reposting the same stuff because you keep repeating the same errors. I have no problem telling people like you what I think about your "theology." It is unbiblical and is based upon an erroneous face-value approach. The comments and accusations I have made are wholly accurate given the plain remarks you have made, and I am not going to sit quietly by and play "patty-cake" with people who are spewing heresies such as "works-based-salvation."

I could never imagine Christ dealing with people in the ways you have.

He was actually worse than I am.

There are many people on this board that don't agree with each other but I don't see them reacting like you do.

I simply have the guts to tell it like it is. I don't whitewash anything, especially when people like you come to our boards with false doctrines.

Even if you were right in what you say I could never give you merit to listen to you because you are not an example to others. I have learned many things from people both Christian and non-Christian, but with a demeanor like yours what you have to share is a put off.

No, I simply reflect a level of honesty that you don't want to face up to. I have not said anything except in regards to your skill (or lack thereof) in interpreting Scripture.

I know you have chased people off and turned people off to from this board because they have PM'd me about it. I bet they won't say on these boards because you would probably treat them the same way.

We have had others who tried to promote false doctrine, and they don't last long here. We don't put up with it. This is a ministry that teaches salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ and in Christ alone. We do not teach that works are necessary for salvation, and I along with others will vigorously and strenuously repell and refute that nonsense when it shows up on our boards. If that is not to your liking, if you cannot handle that, well let me just say that Yahoo has a marvelous search engine.

[Pilgrim7]

Cardcaptor,

Many of us understand what you are saying. Not to fret though. These things are necessary for the proclamation of truth. You see it is the discussion and the tenor of the discussion that is the witness, not just the truth or error that is presented. All who are led by the Spirit will see and understand what is truth and who is a Christian. Jesus encountered the same thing in His ministry. He didn't debate with the 'religious leaders' of His day to convince them, but so that all would be able to witness both the conflict between truth and error and the spirit or demeaner of the ones presenting truth or error. If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His. Worship must be in Spirit and Truth, Spirit before truth.

You see in our discussions, those who hunger after truth and righteousness will hear the voice of the Spirit and they will follow truth. Our job is complete with the sharing of truth in the Spirit of Christ. The Spirit will reach those who are reachable. When you have shared the truth in love, you have done the will of the Father. The sharing of the truth always brings one to a decision, to either receive or reject it. And that is the point of truth. The truth forces all to make a decision on it whether they realize it on not. All man can do is allow another to choose. You see the truth itself calls for decision and action, so if one refuses or ignores the decision and action, they have chosen.

God bless you,

Dennis