Are we always required to obey government?

[Logostician]

Rom 13:1-2.  Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers.  For there is no power but of God.  The powers that be are ordained of God.  Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God.  And they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.  For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil.  Wilt thou not then be afraid of the power? Do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same.

These are the strongest verses in the Bible about obeying rulers and laws, even invoking "damnation" to offenders.  But I believe they are misinterpreted by most people.  As Christians we follow Jesus and his indwelling Spirit first, foremost, and continuously.  We are in this world, but of God.  God always comes first.  Yet, because we are in this world, we need to not only get along in it, but also be a shining light to it.  We need to behave civilly and orderly whenever possible.  But don't stop reading Rom 13 until you read what God really wants from you, which goes far beyond the go along to get along statements in the opening verses.

Rom 13:8-10.  Owe no man anything, but to love one another.  FOR HE THAT LOVETH ANOTHER HATH FULFILLED THE LAW...AND IF THERE BE ANY OTHER COMMANDMENT, IT IS BRIEFLY COMPREHENDED IN THIS SAYING, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF.  LOVE WORKETH NO ILL TO HIS NEIGHBOR.  THEREFORE, LOVE IS THE FULFILLMENT OF THE LAW.

So what is Jesus telling us? He is telling us to love Him and our neighbor as our primary objectives, while doing our best to get along in secular society.

So are there ever times to disobey rulers/laws?  Of course, whenever those rulers/laws oppose God, his will, and the conviction of his Indwelling Spirit, they must be disobeyed.  The commandments of the King of Kings take precedence over the commandments of men.  But we must take care to ensure a strong conviction from the Spirit of God, before challenging the laws of men.  And we should seek the least disruptive means of doing so, such as voting in a democracy.  But wherever the Spirit leads, we should follow.

I will give multiple Biblical/historical examples of Godly disobedience to rulers/laws, along with one recent history example, and one future example.  But before proceeding let me just point out that the USA wouldn't exist at all if the laws of men were followed without regard to God.  We would still be a British colony.  But we revolted against our British rulers, and established a country where freedom to worship God was fundamental.  It was God's will to have a country founded in Christianity, and to defend a modern state of Israel that would rise again in fulfillment of many prophesies.

Exo 1:15-17.  And the king of Egypt spake to the Hebrew midwives...When you do the office of midwife to the Hebrew women, and see them upon the stools, if it be a son, then you shall kill him, but if it be a daughter, then she shall live.  BUT THE MIDWIVES FEARED GOD, AND DID NOT AS THE KING OF EGYPT COMMANDED THEM, BUT SAVED THE MEN CHILDREN ALIVE.  Therefore God dealt well with the midwives, and the people multiplied, and waxed very mighty.

If you want to fear men, go ahead.  But you better fear God more.  Today we have legalized abortion.  It is an abomination in the eyes God.  If the government ordered you to assist in performing abortions, would you do it?  Would you obey that law?  Just because someone else is doing it, does it exonerate us in our tolerance for these legalized multiple recurring Holocausts?  If a law was passed to jump off a cliff would you follow it?  How about a law requiring you to push other people off a cliff?

Exo 9:1.  Then the Lord said unto Moses, go in unto Pharoah, and tell him, thus saith the Lord God of the Hebrews, let my people go that they may serve me.

Pharoah did not want to let Israel go, even after multiple plagues.  But Moses was directly instructed by God to defy this ruler, and free his people. When God tells you to do anything, the correct response is to do it.  This was true for Moses, and it is true for us today.  Listen to that still, small voice.  Then do it.

1 Sam 23:16-18.  And Jonathon, Saul's son arose, and went to David into the wood, and strengthened his hand in God.  And he said unto him, FEAR NOT, FOR THE HAND OF SAUL MY FATHER SHALL NOT FIND THEE, AND THOU SHALT BE KING OVER ISRAEL, AND I SHALL BE NEXT UNTO THEE, AND THAT ALSO MY FATHER KNOWETH.  And the two made a covenant before the Lord, and David abode in the wood, and Jonathon went to his house.

At this time King Saul is trying to kill David, with orders to everyone, and armies behind him to carry out these orders.  Jonathon's actions toward his own father and King are treasonous in worldly terms, but he is acting on powerful Godly conviction.  Obedience to God comes before obedience to parent or king, or anyone else.

2 Chr 24:4.  And it came to pass that after this Joash (king) was minded to repair the temple of the Lord.  And he gathered together the priests and the Levites and said unto them, go out into the cities of Judah and gather all of Israel money to repair the house of your God from year to year, and see that ye hasten the matter.  Howbeit, the Levites hastened it not.

Joash had a good idea to repair the temple.  But demanding payments from everyone was the wrong way to do it.  Even with good goals, we need to do things God's way.  So the Levites, initially disobey Joash.

2 Chr 24:9-10.  And they made a proclamation through Judah and Jerusalem, to bring into the Lord that Moses the servant of God laid upon Israel in the wilderness.  And the princes and the people rejoiced, and brought in, and cast into the chest, until they had made an end.

When the earthly king's edict was set aside, and replaced with Godly directives, everyone participated to honor God.  God's commandments should always take precedence over the commandments of men.  And it is a joy to fulfill them.

Dan 6:7.  All the presidents of the kingdom, the governors, and the princes, the counselors, and the captains, have consulted together to establish a royal statute, and to make a firm decree, that whosoever shall ask a petition of any god or man for thirty days, he shall be thrown into the den of lions.

Dan 6:10.  Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house, AND HIS WINDOWS BEING OPEN IN HIS CHAMBER TOWARD JERUSALEM, HE KNEELED UPON HIS KNEES THREE TIMES A DAY, AND PRAYED, AND GAVE THANKS, BEFORE HIS GOD AS HE DID AFORETIME.

Don't you just love Daniel?  I do.  Nothing is going to stop him from worshipping God!  And he's doing it in plain sight, even though it invokes a death penalty for breaking an ungodly law.  He is not going to hide his faith. Here is a soldier of God!  What a sharp contrast to today's Christians who are willingly obeying government bans on Christian assemblies under the guise of Corona virus quarantine.  Satan is laughing at us.  Dear Lord, give us more Daniel like Christians with the spiritual backbones to worship you at all costs.  We need light.  Not darkness.  Amen.

Not so long ago, before and during WWII, Nazi Germany tried to take over the world while perpetrating the Holocaust, murdering six million of God's chosen people.  Hitler was their elected ruler.  Most of Europe did little or nothing to stop this abomination.  Was Hitler a ruler to be obeyed, or even tolerated?  When the perpetrators of these murders stand before Jesus at the great white throne and say "I was just following the directions from our ruler",  what do you think Jesus, who by the way was a Jew, will say to them?  What do you think he will say to anyone who defies him, to follow the laws of ungodly men?

Rev 13:16-17.  And he (Antichrist/Ruler of the world) causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their hand, or in their foreheads.  And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had that mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

The Antichrist will be the ruler of the world soon.  Perhaps he is already among us waiting for his short reign of terror.  Will you misuse God's intended meaning of Rom 13 to follow his laws?  Will you sell your soul to him, and follow the rules of this ruler, to be able to participate in his ungodly society?  God forbid!

Jos 24:15.  And if it seem evil to you to serve the Lord, choose you this day who ye will serve, whether the gods  which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell, BUT AS FOR ME AND MY HOUSE, WE WILL SERVE THE LORD.

Jesus always comes first.  His Spirit leads, guides, and directs.  Remember that Jesus obediently followed the will of his heavenly Father.  He became very unpopular with the rulers of his time (Pharisees, Sadducees, Priests, Sanhedrin) to the point of crucifixion.  He did not defy them in an attempt to cause chaos.  He simply spoke the truth, because he is the truth. The truth is a consuming fire to those who do not have a heart for God, and a warm embrace to those of us who do.

Put Jesus first.  Always.  Obey his commandments.  His yoke is easy and his burden is light.  And put on the whole Ephesians Armor of God. Armor that is not worn is decorations.

 

 

 

 

[R. Hartono]

???

[choir loft]

11 hours ago, Logostician said:

Rom 13:1-2.  Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers.  For there is no power but of God.  The powers that be are ordained of God.  Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God.  And they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.  For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil.  Wilt thou not then be afraid of the power? Do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same.

These are the strongest verses in the Bible about obeying rulers and laws, even invoking "damnation" to offenders.  But I believe they are misinterpreted by most people.  As Christians we follow Jesus and his indwelling Spirit first, foremost, and continuously.  We are in this world, but of God.  God always comes first.  Yet, because we are in this world, we need to not only get along in it, but also be a shining light to it.  We need to behave civilly and orderly whenever possible.  But don't stop reading Rom 13 until you read what God really wants from you, which goes far beyond the go along to get along statements in the opening verses.

Rom 13:8-10.  Owe no man anything, but to love one another.  FOR HE THAT LOVETH ANOTHER HATH FULFILLED THE LAW...AND IF THERE BE ANY OTHER COMMANDMENT, IT IS BRIEFLY COMPREHENDED IN THIS SAYING, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF.  LOVE WORKETH NO ILL TO HIS NEIGHBOR.  THEREFORE, LOVE IS THE FULFILLMENT OF THE LAW.

So what is Jesus telling us? He is telling us to love Him and our neighbor as our primary objectives, while doing our best to get along in secular society.

So are there ever times to disobey rulers/laws?  Of course, whenever those rulers/laws oppose God, his will, and the conviction of his Indwelling Spirit, they must be disobeyed.  The commandments of the King of Kings take precedence over the commandments of men.  But we must take care to ensure a strong conviction from the Spirit of God, before challenging the laws of men.  And we should seek the least disruptive means of doing so, such as voting in a democracy.  But wherever the Spirit leads, we should follow.

I will give multiple Biblical/historical examples of Godly disobedience to rulers/laws, along with one recent history example, and one future example.  But before proceeding let me just point out that the USA wouldn't exist at all if the laws of men were followed without regard to God.  We would still be a British colony.  But we revolted against our British rulers, and established a country where freedom to worship God was fundamental.  It was God's will to have a country founded in Christianity, and to defend a modern state of Israel that would rise again in fulfillment of many prophesies.

Exo 1:15-17.  And the king of Egypt spake to the Hebrew midwives...When you do the office of midwife to the Hebrew women, and see them upon the stools, if it be a son, then you shall kill him, but if it be a daughter, then she shall live.  BUT THE MIDWIVES FEARED GOD, AND DID NOT AS THE KING OF EGYPT COMMANDED THEM, BUT SAVED THE MEN CHILDREN ALIVE.  Therefore God dealt well with the midwives, and the people multiplied, and waxed very mighty.

If you want to fear men, go ahead.  But you better fear God more.  Today we have legalized abortion.  It is an abomination in the eyes God.  If the government ordered you to assist in performing abortions, would you do it?  Would you obey that law?  Just because someone else is doing it, does it exonerate us in our tolerance for these legalized multiple recurring Holocausts?  If a law was passed to jump off a cliff would you follow it?  How about a law requiring you to push other people off a cliff?

Exo 9:1.  Then the Lord said unto Moses, go in unto Pharoah, and tell him, thus saith the Lord God of the Hebrews, let my people go that they may serve me.

Pharoah did not want to let Israel go, even after multiple plagues.  But Moses was directly instructed by God to defy this ruler, and free his people. When God tells you to do anything, the correct response is to do it.  This was true for Moses, and it is true for us today.  Listen to that still, small voice.  Then do it.

1 Sam 23:16-18.  And Jonathon, Saul's son arose, and went to David into the wood, and strengthened his hand in God.  And he said unto him, FEAR NOT, FOR THE HAND OF SAUL MY FATHER SHALL NOT FIND THEE, AND THOU SHALT BE KING OVER ISRAEL, AND I SHALL BE NEXT UNTO THEE, AND THAT ALSO MY FATHER KNOWETH.  And the two made a covenant before the Lord, and David abode in the wood, and Jonathon went to his house.

At this time King Saul is trying to kill David, with orders to everyone, and armies behind him to carry out these orders.  Jonathon's actions toward his own father and King are treasonous in worldly terms, but he is acting on powerful Godly conviction.  Obedience to God comes before obedience to parent or king, or anyone else.

2 Chr 24:4.  And it came to pass that after this Joash (king) was minded to repair the temple of the Lord.  And he gathered together the priests and the Levites and said unto them, go out into the cities of Judah and gather all of Israel money to repair the house of your God from year to year, and see that ye hasten the matter.  Howbeit, the Levites hastened it not.

Joash had a good idea to repair the temple.  But demanding payments from everyone was the wrong way to do it.  Even with good goals, we need to do things God's way.  So the Levites, initially disobey Joash.

2 Chr 24:9-10.  And they made a proclamation through Judah and Jerusalem, to bring into the Lord that Moses the servant of God laid upon Israel in the wilderness.  And the princes and the people rejoiced, and brought in, and cast into the chest, until they had made an end.

When the earthly king's edict was set aside, and replaced with Godly directives, everyone participated to honor God.  God's commandments should always take precedence over the commandments of men.  And it is a joy to fulfill them.

Dan 6:7.  All the presidents of the kingdom, the governors, and the princes, the counselors, and the captains, have consulted together to establish a royal statute, and to make a firm decree, that whosoever shall ask a petition of any god or man for thirty days, he shall be thrown into the den of lions.

Dan 6:10.  Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house, AND HIS WINDOWS BEING OPEN IN HIS CHAMBER TOWARD JERUSALEM, HE KNEELED UPON HIS KNEES THREE TIMES A DAY, AND PRAYED, AND GAVE THANKS, BEFORE HIS GOD AS HE DID AFORETIME.

Don't you just love Daniel?  I do.  Nothing is going to stop him from worshipping God!  And he's doing it in plain sight, even though it invokes a death penalty for breaking an ungodly law.  He is not going to hide his faith. Here is a soldier of God!  What a sharp contrast to today's Christians who are willingly obeying government bans on Christian assemblies under the guise of Corona virus quarantine.  Satan is laughing at us.  Dear Lord, give us more Daniel like Christians with the spiritual backbones to worship you at all costs.  We need light.  Not darkness.  Amen.

Not so long ago, before and during WWII, Nazi Germany tried to take over the world while perpetrating the Holocaust, murdering six million of God's chosen people.  Hitler was their elected ruler.  Most of Europe did little or nothing to stop this abomination.  Was Hitler a ruler to be obeyed, or even tolerated?  When the perpetrators of these murders stand before Jesus at the great white throne and say "I was just following the directions from our ruler",  what do you think Jesus, who by the way was a Jew, will say to them?  What do you think he will say to anyone who defies him, to follow the laws of ungodly men?

Rev 13:16-17.  And he (Antichrist/Ruler of the world) causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their hand, or in their foreheads.  And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had that mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

The Antichrist will be the ruler of the world soon.  Perhaps he is already among us waiting for his short reign of terror.  Will you misuse God's intended meaning of Rom 13 to follow his laws?  Will you sell your soul to him, and follow the rules of this ruler, to be able to participate in his ungodly society?  God forbid!

Jos 24:15.  And if it seem evil to you to serve the Lord, choose you this day who ye will serve, whether the gods  which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell, BUT AS FOR ME AND MY HOUSE, WE WILL SERVE THE LORD.

Jesus always comes first.  His Spirit leads, guides, and directs.  Remember that Jesus obediently followed the will of his heavenly Father.  He became very unpopular with the rulers of his time (Pharisees, Sadducees, Priests, Sanhedrin) to the point of crucifixion.  He did not defy them in an attempt to cause chaos.  He simply spoke the truth, because he is the truth. The truth is a consuming fire to those who do not have a heart for God, and a warm embrace to those of us who do.

Put Jesus first.  Always.  Obey his commandments.  His yoke is easy and his burden is light.  And put on the whole Ephesians Armor of God. Armor that is not worn is decorations.

 

 

 

 

American fanaticism has blinded even the most devoted of the followers of Christ.   It has been so for a great many years.   Peer pressure from secular society has diluted faith and duty to God.

The answer to the tension of State vs. God is to follow Jesus and His example, never to twist scripture to support the political system. (*)

I know not what other men choose to do, but for me I follow Christ by example.   This is entirely contradictory to the current fanatical demands of American society.

What did Jesus do?

"Give to Caesar that which is Caesar's and to God that which is God's" - Jesus as quoted by Luke 20:25

What portion belongs to the government?

Jesus paid His taxes.  (Matt 17:27)

Jesus obeyed the civil laws as should we all.  (Romans 13:1-2)

What portion belongs to God?

Everything else.  We are commanded and expected to devote 100% of our mind heart and soul to God - NOT THE GOVERNMENT (Deuteronomy 6:5 - the 1st commandment).

The throne of God is a seat for one, not a bench for a committee.

If 100% of our allegiance is given to God, there is no room for allegiance to any flag.   You will find no record in either the inspired Word of God or the secular records of Jesus' life where the Son of God pledged His allegiance to the flag of Rome, supported the troops, sang the national anthem with His hand over His heart or  even prayed for the empire/nation.

Neither do I.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) Many Americans like to quote the familiar phrase, "God bless America", but will He indeed bless a nation that turns it's back upon Him?  He will not.

Many Germans of the 1930's liked to quote the phrase, "Gott Mitt Uns" which in English translates to "God is with us".   Was God on the side of the Nazis - really?

The answer to our dilemma will not be found in the next popular vote.  It will be found when we sink to our knees in humble petition unto God for forgiveness.

Edited May 12, 2020 by choir loft

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WHAT WOULD JESUS DO ???