The two promises of God that contradict each other

[Daniel Marsh]

On 6/7/2020 at 3:22 AM, alaric_w said:

The promise of eternal salvation and never be seperated from God

John 3:15-16 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
 

John 10:28-30 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.
 

Romans 8:38-39 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor e principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
 

The promise of eternal condemnation for receiving the Mark of the Beast

Revelation 14:9-11 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
 

What happen if a Christian who is saved eternally receives the Mark of the Beast? It will result in conflict for God's promise of eternal salvation and eternal condemnation. This will put God in dilemma because he cannot go back on his word or lie. And it is because this reason, we have assurance of our eternal salvation through the finished work of Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us.
 

How can God prevent this dilemma from happening? It is possible if the Church is no longer physically on earth before the anti-Christ implement the Mark of the Beast.

The rapture of the Church is the event that will prevent the conflict of God's promises. The removal of the restrainer is the removal of the Church (Holy Spirit and Temple). Christians sealed with the Holy Spirit and each christian is a temple for the Holy Spirit. 

2 Thessalonians 2: 7-8 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 
 

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.
 

Conclusion: The rapture of the Church must happen before or immediately before the implementation of the Mark of the Beast. During Convid19 pandemic, ideas similar to the Mark of the Beast has been implemented as a means for contact-tracing. I believe evolve into Mark of the Beast soon. The Church's time on earth is short

References for implementation
https://patentscope.wipo.int/search/en/detail.jsf?docId=WO2020060606
https://nypost.com/2020/06/05/singapore-plans-wearable-virus-tracing-device-for-all/

The logic makes no sense to me since Christians are persecuted in the tribulation time.   For them to avoid following the beast, they would have to be on earth at the time of the beast. 

Revelation 20:4

Then I saw some thrones and people sitting on them. These were the ones who had been given the power to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been killed because they were faithful to the truth of Jesus and the message from God. They did not worship the beast or its idol. They did not receive the mark of the beast on their foreheads or on their hands. They came back to life and ruled with Christ for 1000 years.

 

God can simply kill a true Christian to stop them from making that mistake.

[alaric_w]

1 minute ago, Daniel Marsh said:

The logic makes no sense to me since Christians are persecuted in the tribulation time.   For them to avoid following the beast, they would have to be on earth at the time of the beast. 

Revelation 20:4

Then I saw some thrones and people sitting on them. These were the ones who had been given the power to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been killed because they were faithful to the truth of Jesus and the message from God. They did not worship the beast or its idol. They did not receive the mark of the beast on their foreheads or on their hands. They came back to life and ruled with Christ for 1000 years.

 

God can simply kill a true Christian to stop them from making that mistake.

You must be a post-tribulation rapture believer. I find post-tribulation rapture make no sense.

I believe in pre-tribulation rapture. After the rapture, there will not be any christian on earth. If there are any self-proclaim christian, then they are never saved in the first place. Like my pastor always say "Going to Macdonald's does not turn you into a Big Mac burger. Just by coming to church does not automatically makes everyone into a christian." It is believing in Jesus and his finished work and turning away from self-righteousness to accepting Jesus' righteousness which is a free gift that makes a person into a christian. 

All tribulation christian started off as unbelievers but started to believe after witnessing the rapture.

[Daniel Marsh]

Revelation 13 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
The Beast From the Sea
13 Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea. It had ten horns and seven heads. There was a crown on each of its horns. It had an evil name written on each head. 2 This beast looked like a leopard, with feet like a bear’s feet. It had a mouth like a lion’s mouth. The dragon gave the beast all of its power and its throne and great authority.

3 One of the heads of the beast looked as if it had been wounded and killed, but the death wound was healed. All the people in the world were amazed, and they all followed the beast. 4 People worshiped the dragon because it had given its power to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast. They asked, “Who is as powerful as the beast? Who can make war against it?”

5 The beast was allowed to boast and speak insults against God. It was allowed to use its power for 42 months. 6 The beast opened its mouth to insult God—to insult his name, the place where he lives, and all those who live in heaven. 7 It was given power to make war against God’s holy people and to defeat them. It was given power over every tribe, race of people, language, and nation. 8 Everyone living on earth would worship the beast. These are all the people since the beginning of the world whose names are not written in the Lamb’s book of life. The Lamb is the one who was killed.

9 Anyone who hears these things should listen to this:

10 Whoever is to be a prisoner,
    will be a prisoner.
Whoever is to be killed with a sword,
    will be killed with a sword.

This means that God’s holy people must have patience and faith.

The Beast From the Earth
11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth. He had two horns like a lamb, but he talked like a dragon. 12 This beast stood before the first beast and used the same power the first beast had. He used this power to make everyone living on the earth worship the first beast. The first beast was the one that had the death wound that was healed. 13 The second beast did great miracles.[a] He even made fire come down from heaven to earth while people were watching.

14 This second beast fooled the people living on earth by using the miracles that he had been given the power to do for the first beast. He ordered people to make an idol to honor the first beast, the one that was wounded by the sword but did not die. 15 The second beast was given power to give life to the idol of the first beast. Then the idol could speak and order all those who did not worship it to be killed. 16 The second beast also forced all people, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to have a mark put on their right hand or on their forehead. 17 No one could buy or sell without this mark. (This mark is the name of the beast or the number of its name.)

18 Anyone who has understanding can find the meaning of the beast’s number. This requires wisdom. This number is the number of a man. It is 666.

[Daniel Marsh]

Revelation 14 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
God’s People Sing a New Song
14 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, who was standing on Mount Zion.[a] There were 144,000 people with him. They all had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.

2 And I heard a sound from heaven as loud as the crashing of floodwaters or claps of thunder. But it sounded like harpists playing their harps. 3 The people sang a new song before the throne and before the four living beings and the elders. The only ones who could learn the new song were the 144,000 who had been bought from the earth. No one else could learn it.

4 These are the ones who did not do sinful things with women. They kept themselves pure. Now they follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were bought from among the people of the earth as the first to be offered to God and the Lamb. 5 They are not guilty of telling lies; they are without fault.

The Three Angels
6 Then I saw another angel flying high in the air. The angel had the eternal Good News to announce to the people living on earth—to every nation, tribe, language, and race of people. 7 The angel said in a loud voice, “Fear God and give him praise. The time has come for God to judge all people. Worship God. He made the heavens, the earth, the sea, and the springs of water.”

8 Then the second angel followed the first angel and said, “She is destroyed! The great city of Babylon is destroyed! She made all the nations drink the wine of her sexual sin and of God’s anger.”

9 A third angel followed the first two angels. This third angel said in a loud voice, “God will punish all those who worship the beast and the beast’s idol and agree to have the beast’s mark on their forehead or on their hand. 10 They will drink the wine of God’s anger. This wine is prepared with all its strength in the cup of God’s anger. They will be tortured with burning sulfur before the holy angels and the Lamb. 11 And the smoke from their burning pain will rise forever and ever. There will be no rest, day or night, for those who worship the beast and its idol or who wear the mark of its name.” 12 This means that God’s holy people must be patient. They must obey God’s commands and keep their faith in Jesus.

13 Then I heard a voice from heaven. It said, “Write this: From now on there are great blessings for those who belong to the Lord when they die.”

The Spirit says, “Yes, that is true. They will rest from their hard work. What they have done will stay with them.”

The Earth Is Harvested
14 I looked and there before me, sitting on a white cloud, was one who looked like the Son of Man. He had a gold crown on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15 Then another angel came out of the temple. This angel called to the one who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and gather from the earth. The time to harvest has come, and the fruit on the earth is ripe.” 16 So the one who was sitting on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth. And the earth was harvested.

17 Then another angel came out of the temple in heaven. This angel also had a sharp sickle. 18 And then another angel, one with power over the fire, came from the altar. He called to the angel with the sharp sickle and said, “Take your sharp sickle and gather the bunches of grapes from the earth’s vine. The earth’s grapes are ripe.” 19 The angel swung his sickle over the earth. He gathered the earth’s grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God’s anger. 20 The grapes were squeezed in the winepress outside the city. Blood flowed out of the winepress. It rose as high as the heads of the horses for a distance of 200 miles

[Daniel Marsh]

Revelation 16 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
The Bowls Filled With God’s Anger
16 Then I heard a loud voice from the temple. It said to the seven angels, “Go and pour out the seven bowls of God’s anger on the earth.”

2 The first angel left. He poured out his bowl on the land. Then all those who had the mark of the beast and who worshiped its idol got sores that were ugly and painful.

3 The second angel poured out his bowl on the sea. Then the sea became blood like a dead man’s blood. And everything living in the sea died.

4 The third angel poured out his bowl on the rivers and the springs of water. The rivers and the springs of water became blood. 5 Then I heard the angel of the waters say to God,

“You are the one who is and who always was.
    You are the Holy One.
    You are right in these judgments you have made.
6 The people have spilled the blood
    of your holy people and your prophets.
Now you have given those people blood to drink.
    This is what they deserve.”

7 And I heard the altar say,

“Yes, Lord God All-Powerful,
    your judgments are true and right.”

8 The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun. The sun was given power to burn the people with fire. 9 The people were burned by the great heat. They cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues. But they refused to change their hearts and lives and give glory to God.

10 The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast. And darkness covered the beast’s kingdom. People bit their tongues because of the pain. 11 They cursed the God of heaven because of their pain and the sores they had. But they refused to change their hearts and turn away from the evil things they did.

12 The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates. The water in the river was dried up. This prepared the way for the rulers from the east to come. 13 Then I saw three evil spirits that looked like frogs. They came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 These evil spirits are the spirits of demons. They have power to do miracles.[a] They go out to the rulers of the whole world to gather them for battle on the great day of God All-Powerful.

15 “Listen! I will come at a time you don’t expect, like a thief. Great blessings belong to those who stay awake and keep their clothes with them. They will not have to go without clothes and be ashamed for people to see them.”

16 Then the evil spirits gathered the rulers together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

17 The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air. Then a loud voice came out of the temple from the throne. It said, “It is finished!” 18 Then there were flashes of lightning, noises, thunder, and a big earthquake. This was the worst earthquake that has ever happened since people have been on earth. 19 The great city split into three parts. The cities of the nations were destroyed. And God did not forget to punish Babylon the Great. He gave that city the cup filled with the wine of his terrible anger. 20 Every island disappeared and there were no more mountains. 21 Giant hailstones fell on the people from the sky. These hailstones weighed almost 100 pounds each. People cursed God because of this plague of the hail. It was terrible.

 

Why is verse 15 in the text if there are no Christians on earth durling this time?

[Daniel Marsh]

15 minutes ago, alaric_w said:

You must be a post-tribulation rapture believer. I find post-tribulation rapture make no sense.

I believe in pre-tribulation rapture. After the rapture, there will not be any christian on earth. If there are any self-proclaim christian, then they are never saved in the first place. Like my pastor always say "Going to Macdonald's does not turn you into a Big Mac burger. Just by coming to church does not automatically makes everyone into a christian." It is believing in Jesus and his finished work and turning away from self-righteousness to accepting Jesus' righteousness which is a free gift that makes a person into a christian. 

All tribulation christians started off as unbelievers but started to believe after witnessing the rapture.

Prove that "All tribulation christians started off as unbelievers but started to believe after witnessing the rapture."

I do not recall any text that states your assumption.    The clear unbiased reading is Christians went through the tribulation period.

To walk out of a room,  one must be in the room in the first place.

 

 

[Daniel Marsh]

On 6/7/2020 at 2:24 PM, JustPassingThru said:

And they will be decapitated by the AC and his forces "because" they refused the mark of the beast.

John saw them and wrote about them in Rev 9:7-17

Lord bless

Revelation 9:7-17 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
7 The locusts looked like horses prepared for battle. On their heads they wore something that looked like a gold crown. Their faces looked like human faces. 8 Their hair was like women’s hair. Their teeth were like lions’ teeth. 9 Their chests looked like iron breastplates. The sound their wings made was like the noise of many horses and chariots hurrying into battle. 10 The locusts had tails with stingers like scorpions. The power they had to give people pain for five months was in their tails. 11 They had a ruler, who was the angel of the bottomless pit. His name in Hebrew is Abaddon.[a] In Greek it is Apollyon.

12 The first terror is now past. There are still two other terrors to come.

The Sixth Trumpet Blast
13 The sixth angel blew his trumpet. Then I heard a voice coming from the horns on the four corners of the golden altar that is before God. 14 It said to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Free the four angels who are tied at the great river Euphrates.” 15 These four angels had been kept ready for this hour and day and month and year. The angels were set free to kill a third of all the people on the earth. 16 I heard how many troops on horses were in their army. There were 200,000,000.

17 In my vision, I saw the horses and the riders on the horses. They looked like this: They had breastplates that were fiery red, dark blue, and yellow like sulfur. The heads of the horses looked like heads of lions. The horses had fire, smoke, and sulfur coming out of their mouths.

Maybe you had this in mind?

 

 

Revelation 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

 

 

[alaric_w]

2 minutes ago, Daniel Marsh said:

Prove that "All tribulation christians started off as unbelievers but started to believe after witnessing the rapture."

I do not recall any text that states your assumption.    The clear unbiased reading is Christians went through the tribulation period.

To walk out of a room,  one must be in the room in the first place.

 

 

Well the sequence is as written in 2 Thessalonians 2: 7-8 2 Thessalonians 2: 7-8 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 

Firstly, the one who restrain is the Holy Spirit. And the Holy Spirit dwells inside every true born again christian.

Secondly, once a christian is sealed with the Holy Spirit, they will never be separated or be lost from God because salvation cannot be lost. 

So according to 2 Thessalonians 2: 7-8, the Holy Spirit needs to be taken out of the way before the anti-christ can show himself. When the Holy Spirit is removed, so will the christian be remove together because the Holy Spirit and Christian is a single entity known as new creature.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Revelation 6 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
The Lamb Opens the Scroll
6 Then I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living beings speak with a voice like thunder. It said, “Come!” 2 I looked, and there before me was a white horse. The rider on the horse held a bow and was given a crown. He rode out to defeat the enemy and win the victory.

3 The Lamb opened the second seal. Then I heard the second living being say, “Come!” 4 Then another horse came out, a red one. The rider on the horse was given power to take away peace from the earth so that people would kill each other. He was given a big sword.

5 The Lamb opened the third seal. Then I heard the third living being say, “Come!” I looked, and there before me was a black horse. The rider on the horse held a pair of scales in his hand. 6 Then I heard something that sounded like a voice. The voice came from where the four living beings were. It said, “A quart[a] of wheat or three quarts of barley will cost a full day’s pay. But don’t harm the supply of olive oil and wine!”

7 The Lamb opened the fourth seal. Then I heard the voice of the fourth living being say, “Come!” 8 I looked, and there before me was a pale-colored horse. The rider on the horse was death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth—power to kill people with the sword, by starving, by disease, and with the wild animals of the earth.

9 The Lamb opened the fifth seal. Then I saw some souls under the altar. They were the souls of those who had been killed because they were faithful to God’s message and to the truth they had received. 10 These souls shouted in a loud voice, “Holy and true Lord, how long until you judge the people of the earth and punish them for killing us?” 11 Then each one of them was given a white robe. They were told to wait a short time longer. There were still some of their brothers and sisters in the service of Christ who must be killed as they were. These souls were told to wait until all the killing was finished.

12 Then I watched while the Lamb opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake, and the sun became as black as sackcloth. The full moon became red like blood. 13 The stars in the sky fell to the earth like a fig tree dropping its figs when the wind blows. 14 The sky was split in the middle and both sides rolled up like a scroll. And every mountain and island was moved from its place.

15 Then all the people—the kings of the world, the rulers, the army commanders, the rich people, the powerful people, every slave, and every free person—hid themselves in caves and behind the rocks on the mountains. 16 They said to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us. Hide us from the face of the one who sits on the throne. Hide us from the anger of the Lamb! 17 The great day for their anger has come. No one can stand against it.”

[Daniel Marsh]

Note Revelation 6 does not say when they started believing on Jesus.

IMHO, (no text to support this)  It would make more sense that everyone who witnessed the Rapture would believe and become part of the Rapture.