Why can't we blame God for things that happen?

[Faithwilldo]

9 hours ago, Wesley L said:

A specific group of people = REAL PEOPLE.
Even in your wrongful conclusion, the group of people that have existed since Paul, they are not saved. Thus not all people are saved.

In God's words there can't be any contradiction.
In your words there are. Are you speaking things in truth and in spirit?
The way you use scripture, you can make the bible saying all kinds of things out of context. (I am willing to elaborate, if you want to)

When you say that all mankind will be saved, you don't understand the true reason and weight of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross.
Not understanding when Jesus says:"I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.".

The truth is not revealed by our own intellect trying to uncover the mysteries of God's words. But the truth is revealed by the Holy Spirit Who dwells in each born again Christian. So that I can't boast of my understanding of His words, all to His glory. I pray that each one of us has the Holy Spirit and understand God's words according to His will.
 

 

You are either purposely misrepresenting what I have been saying or you are not reading what I post.

You said:

A specific group of people = REAL PEOPLE.
Even in your wrongful conclusion, the group of people that have existed since Paul, they are not saved. Thus not all people are saved.

The "beast" represents carnal mankind.  The head that has the deadly wound specifically represents the fallen away Christians.  The only people who are no longer represented by the beast are the Elect.  They were destroyed (removed from the beast) and given a new birth as a child of God.  The "beast" is cast into the Lake of Fire to be judged and purified.  In other words, the beast (mankind) will be spiritually destroyed and given a new birth.  This is the same pathway that the Elect followed.

Spiritual death of our carnal nature (Old Man) is necessary for our new birth.  Our "Old Man" is guilty of sin and will receive the penalty of sin (death).  But from that death, God causes us to be "born again".  It is all His work which you deny with your doctrine of Free Will.  

Why do you believe that no one can be saved after they physically die?  There are no scriptures that support this belief.  If we are not chosen to be saved now, we will go to "judgment" and be saved then.  With God, all things are possible.  

You continue to believe that God's judgment is somehow like man's judgment which does not purify and forgive.  God is not like mankind.  

You said:

In God's words there can't be any contradiction.

You are right.  However, because of our carnal minds, the contradictions will only end AFTER Christ gives us the "mind of Christ" and heals our spiritual blindness so that we can understand scripture.  Spiritual eyes and ears are only given to us at the second coming of Christ (the latter rain).  Until that time, a believer is spiritually blind and is lead by the hand by spiritually blind leaders.  Paul's conversion "typed" this truth for us and it is shown to us again in these verses:

Mark 8:15-21  And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod.  16  And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have no bread.  17  And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened?  18  Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember?  19  When I brake the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve.  20  And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, Seven.  21  And he said unto them, How is it that ye do not understand?

Mark 8:22-25  And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him.  23  And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought.  24  And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking.  25  After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.

Christ speaks to us not only through His words which are recorded in scripture but also by the things that He did.   In answering the question that He proposed to the disciples in verse 21, He goes to Bethsaida and gives us His answer through the type and shadow of His healing of a blind man. 

In these verses, Christ leads a blind man out of the city.  These actions by Christ spiritually represent the time when an unbeliever is "called" out from the world and into the Church.  Once outside the city, Christ places spit on his eyes and touches him with His hands.  These actions occur as the blind man is looking down and they symbolize the carnal aspect of the blind man’s healing.  After Christ asks him what he could see, the blind man looks up and says that he could see men walking as trees.  "Walking as trees" is a symbol for man's truth that comes from the earth (our carnal nature).  It is not Christ's truth which only comes from heaven.  The man’s blindness was not total any longer but he was still very near-sighted.  This “first healing” of the blind man reflects our spiritual condition when we first enter the Church.  It is the time of the "early rain" or Paul's Damascus road experience.  At that time, we are left carnally minded and spiritually near-sighted.  Peter says this condition is the same as being blind:

2Pet 4:19  But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.       

In the final verse of the story, Christ lays His hands upon the man’s eyes again but this time, Christ has the man “look up”.  This second healing represents the Baptism of the Holy Spirit when true spiritual vision is given to the believer.  The man’s upward gaze represents this heavenly aspect of the healing.  From that moment onward, we know that the blind man is a Chosen believer.  He was first Called Out from the world and then he was Chosen to be “born again” as a First Fruit of Christ’s Harvest.   

Your beliefs are contradicted by many verses which I have previously posted.  You have not produced any verses that contradict what I know to be as truth.  You have confused God's judgment with something so horrible that it is difficult to even think about for a few moments.  Even the serial killers of this world can only harm a person for a short period of time.  But the Doctrine of Hell says that there is no end for the torment of the lost.  Why would Christ who is merciful, loving and kind do such a thing to His creation?  He loves us more than we can love our own children.  His love is perfect and He always does what's in our best interest.  He is our Savior and is not a mass torturer.  With that doctrine, Christ is made out to be the greatest evil the world has ever known.  And you say that God is not evil or even creates evil but you support this horrible, evil doctrine.  Can you see the contradiction here with your beliefs?

You said:

According to your beliefs, it doesn't matter what I belief. I may get punishment for a "wrongful" belief but end up in heaven anyway.
According to your beliefs, you are just preventing people to get severe punishment, but in the end all end up in heaven anyway. There is no urgency to belief or to share the gospel. Because any temporary punishment is truly nothing compared to afterwards living with god in eternity.

No one will "end up in heaven anyway".  The pathway that leads to Christ is the "only" way to be saved.  It is ONLY by the work of Christ.  Until He does His work within us, we will remain unsaved and carnally minded.  Mankind does not have any ability to help Christ save us (change us from within).  Our confession of faith only happens as a result of Christ's work within us.  His work is between our ears so to speak.  When He does His work within us, we will accept Him as Lord and He will lead us down the pathway to salvation.  Every step we take is by the direction of Christ.  We contribute nothing so that no man can boast.  The Doctrine of Free Will is a direct contradiction to the way Christ does His work.  The Doctrine of Free Will is the primary cause of a believer falling away back to "works".  Once this happens within us, we cannot be renewed by repentance.  

Heb 6:4-6   For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Because we ALL fall away after first accepting Christ, it is necessary for Christ to come to us a second time.  It is only then that Christ heals our spiritual blindness so that we can know His truth.  That is the "only" pathway that saves us.  When a believer takes credit for their decision to accept Christ, they are stealing from Christ's work.  But this too is caused by God.  It is all part of the pathway that leads to destruction of our Old Man and then on to salvation.  Everyone one must fall away and wait on the Lord to come a second time:

Heb 9:28  So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

You said:

But according to God's words, christians are to share the gospel of salvation. So that by hearing His words, one can believe and be saved through faith alone in Jesus Christ. So that one won't be lost forever. There is only one way, the choice is to be made within our lives on earth. By sin, we have already made the choice for hell. And only through faith in Jesus Christ we can turn back to God and be seen as righteous in His eyes.

From birth, we have no ability to have faith.  Faith is a gift from God.  Until He comes to each of us and gives us "gifts", we will never repent and accept Him.

Rom 11:29  For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

If Christ wanted to save everyone in this present age, He could easily do it.  But His plan is to ONLY save the Elect now.  They are the "first fruits" of His harvest.  Why do you believe that Christ will only save the "early and best portion" of His harvest of mankind?  He is the good farmer and He will bring in the full harvest of mankind at the end of the harvest season (final age).  There are no scriptures that say our salvation can only occur in this life time.  Why do you think that Christ is going to resurrect everyone in the future?  After all, the penalty of sin is death and the lost will already be dead.  Why resurrect them?  Why do you believe that the punishment of sin is not actually death but life in the fires of hell?  That belief does not come from scripture.  

Joe

 

 

Edited August 29, 2020 by Faithwilldo

[WowLookaDuck]

I, too, believe in predestination, but I also believe in free will. And I truly understand your desire to not believe in Hell. I'd love to believe what you're saying. But it's all just made up. Otherwise, it'd be in the Bible, and I mean clearly, not through strange symbols of which only you somehow know the meaning. Also, in all your theorizing, you've left out God's Justice. 

[Wesley L]

17 hours ago, Faithwilldo said:

You are either purposely misrepresenting what I have been saying or you are not reading what I post.

You said:

A specific group of people = REAL PEOPLE.
Even in your wrongful conclusion, the group of people that have existed since Paul, they are not saved. Thus not all people are saved.

The "beast" represents carnal mankind.  The head that has the deadly wound specifically represents the fallen away Christians.  The only people who are no longer represented by the beast are the Elect.  They were destroyed (removed from the beast) and given a new birth as a child of God.  The "beast" is cast into the Lake of Fire to be judged and purified.  In other words, the beast (mankind) will be spiritually destroyed and given a new birth.  This is the same pathway that the Elect followed.

Spiritual death of our carnal nature (Old Man) is necessary for our new birth.  Our "Old Man" is guilty of sin and will receive the penalty of sin (death).  But from that death, God causes us to be "born again".  It is all His work which you deny with your doctrine of Free Will.  

Why do you believe that no one can be saved after they physically die?  There are no scriptures that support this belief.  If we are not chosen to be saved now, we will go to "judgment" and be saved then.  With God, all things are possible.  

You continue to believe that God's judgment is somehow like man's judgment which does not purify and forgive.  God is not like mankind.  

You said:

In God's words there can't be any contradiction.

You are right.  However, because of our carnal minds, the contradictions will only end AFTER Christ gives us the "mind of Christ" and heals our spiritual blindness so that we can understand scripture.  Spiritual eyes and ears are only given to us at the second coming of Christ (the latter rain).  Until that time, a believer is spiritually blind and is lead by the hand by spiritually blind leaders.  Paul's conversion "typed" this truth for us and it is shown to us again in these verses:

-----

Joe

 

 

Hi Joe,

I may have concluded too soon about that part. Not purposely, but just impatience from my side. My apology. Now understanding that you believe some will be punished temporary and but will be saved anyway. (which is a false teaching)

It is very hard for me to give feedback to all your points. Because they are an accumulation of misinterpretation of the bible. One misunderstanding leading to another.

It may seem very arrogant of me to say that. But I truly say that in truth, as given to me through God's words. Not my own understanding. Let me just pick two other points.
 

On 8/28/2020 at 7:30 PM, Faithwilldo said:

The Lake of Fire is another symbol with a spiritual meaning.  The Lake of Fire means God's righteousness judgment.  It is not a literal place nor does it have literal fire.  Here is what God's fire is and does:

1Cor 3:13-15  Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.  If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Mankind is saved by God's "fire", not tortured for eternity.  The loss they receive is not being saved first along with the First Fruits and not helping Christ bring in the full harvest of mankind (ruling and reigning with Christ).

Certainly, bible verses mention fire in several verses.
The lake of fire vs. God's fire. But both fires are NOT talking about the same things!

• My house is on fire.
• While playing basketball, that player is on fire.
• My father is angry and he is on fire.

All talking about fire, but not the same kind of fire.
Same as the lake of fire vs. God's fire.
The lake of fire  may be a metaphor for hell, not meaning real fire.
God's fire in 1 Cor 3 is certainly not the same as the lake of fire.
You conclude that God's fire saves all.

Let's review adding a few more verses to see more clearly.

1 Cor 3:10-16

10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. 11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. 14 If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. 16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

• What is this foundation?
• What is this foundation that can be only based on faith in Jesus Christ?
• Who are the ones with this foundation, building on it?
• To whom is Paul talking to?
• Who are the ones with the indwelling of the Spirit of God which Paul is talking to?
• Who are the ones with the Holy Spirit according to the bible?
• Who are the ones that can build a bad building, but still be saved?

Concluding: Lake of fire is for unbelievers. God's fire (1cor3) is for believers.

It is clear that Paul is talking about born again believers who have put their trust in Jesus Christ as the foundation of their faith. Without faith in Christ there is no foundation and also no indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Born again believers have Christ as the foundation, through faith, they have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, thus they are saved even though they may be bad builders.
Born again believers can build bad structures on top of their faith, but nevertheless, they are still saved by faith.

Quote:" However, because of our carnal minds, the contradictions will only end AFTER Christ gives us the "mind of Christ" and heals our spiritual blindness so that we can understand scripture.  Spiritual eyes and ears are only given to us at the second coming of Christ (the latter rain).  Until that time, a believer is spiritually blind and is lead by the hand by spiritually blind leaders.  Paul's conversion "typed" this truth for us and it is shown to us again in these verses"

This is just not true.  We receive the Holy Spirit in our lives. Not after His return. When a born again christian has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The Helper which shows us the truth. We are not spiritually blind anymore, on the contrary, we can see the truth through the Holy Spirit.
Certainly, there is a bible verse about the blind leading the blind. But those are warnings for believers not to be like that. It is not a fact  that applies to all believers. (context context context) A fact that applies to all true believers is that through the Holy Spirit, we are NOT blind, we can see the truth.

Acts 2:38
38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

John 14:26
26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

John 16:13
13 But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

Romans 8:9
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

Ephesians 1:13-14
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Romans 8:16
16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,

ONLY born again believers who are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit are saved.
 

1 John 2:22-23
Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.

Matthew 10:33
But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;

God's words are clear, we are not blind. The Holy Spirit tells us so.

To put things into perspective.

• From your perspective it doesn't matter what I say. Everybody ends up in heaven anyway. And I am just giving folks a good scare. Believing the truth is not of importance.
• From my perspective, it does matter what you say. Believing the truth is a matter of life and death. A wrong belief in Jesus Christ, who is the Word, the Truth, the Way and the Life, will be a matter of eternal separation from God or eternal life with God. 

Edited August 30, 2020 by Wesley L

[Faithwilldo]

16 hours ago, WowLookaDuck said:

I, too, believe in predestination, but I also believe in free will. And I truly understand your desire to not believe in Hell. I'd love to believe what you're saying. But it's all just made up. Otherwise, it'd be in the Bible, and I mean clearly, not through strange symbols of which only you somehow know the meaning. Also, in all your theorizing, you've left out God's Justice. 

Most of God's truth is meant to be hidden in scripture but the issue of "free will" is not one since it is not true:

Jer 10:23  I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps. (Darby)

Isa 26:12  O Jehovah, Thou appointest peace to us, For, all our works also Thou hast wrought for us. (Darby)

Prov 16:1  The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 20:24  Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Most people believe that since mankind has the ability to make "choices" that it stands to reason that we also have "free will".  But that reasoning is unsound.  To have a "free will", one must have the ability to make "uncaused" choices.  The above verses clearly say that God is the cause of what we say and do.  Mankind's "will" is certainly not "free".

Also, most of the knowledge of God is purposely hidden in scripture and can only be understood and believed AFTER Christ comes to us a second time and heals our blindness.  This happens ONLY to the chosen Elect.

Ecc 3:11  He (God) has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart so that the man may NOT find out His work, that which God does, that which God does from the beginning to the end.

Prov 2:1-5  My son, if you receive my words and treasure up my commandments with you, making your ear attentive to wisdom and inclining your heart to understanding;  yes, if you call out for insight and raise your voice for understanding, if you seek it like silver and search for it as for hidden treasures, then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God. 

Matt 13:10-11  And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?  He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

1Cor 2:7  But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

1Cor 2:13  These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Isa 28: 10-12  For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:  11  For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.  12  But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Mar 4:23  If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.

Only the Elect have been given "ears to hear" and that only occurs when they receive the Latter Rain of the Spirit.  As the verses above state, God hides His truth from everyone except to those whom He has chosen to reveal it.  The Book of Revelation is the "unveiling of Jesus Christ".  In other words, Christ is hidden and must be "unveiled" if anyone is to see the true.  

Joe

Edited August 30, 2020 by Faithwilldo

[Faithwilldo]

6 hours ago, Wesley L said:

Hi Joe,

I may have concluded too soon about that part. Not purposely, but just impatience from my side. My apology. Now understanding that you believe some will be punished temporary and but will be saved anyway. (which is a false teaching)

It is very hard for me to give feedback to all your points. Because they are an accumulation of misinterpretation of the bible. One misunderstanding leading to another.

It may seem very arrogant of me to say that. But I truly say that in truth, as given to me through God's words. Not my own understanding. Let me just pick two other points.
 

Certainly, bible verses mention fire in several verses.
The lake of fire vs. God's fire. But both fires are NOT talking about the same things!

• My house is on fire.
• While playing basketball, that player is on fire.
• My father is angry and he is on fire.

All talking about fire, but not the same kind of fire.
Same as the lake of fire vs. God's fire.
The lake of fire  may be a metaphor for hell, not meaning real fire.
God's fire in 1 Cor 3 is certainly not the same as the lake of fire.
You conclude that God's fire saves all.

Let's review adding a few more verses to see more clearly.

1 Cor 3:10-16

10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. 11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. 14 If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. 16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

• What is this foundation?
• What is this foundation that can be only based on faith in Jesus Christ?
• Who are the ones with this foundation, building on it?
• To whom is Paul talking to?
• Who are the ones with the indwelling of the Spirit of God which Paul is talking to?
• Who are the ones with the Holy Spirit according to the bible?
• Who are the ones that can build a bad building, but still be saved?

Concluding: Lake of fire is for unbelievers. God's fire (1cor3) is for believers.

It is clear that Paul is talking about born again believers who have put their trust in Jesus Christ as the foundation of their faith. Without faith in Christ there is no foundation and also no indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Born again believers have Christ as the foundation, through faith, they have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, thus they are saved even though they may be bad builders.
Born again believers can build bad structures on top of their faith, but nevertheless, they are still saved by faith.

Quote:" However, because of our carnal minds, the contradictions will only end AFTER Christ gives us the "mind of Christ" and heals our spiritual blindness so that we can understand scripture.  Spiritual eyes and ears are only given to us at the second coming of Christ (the latter rain).  Until that time, a believer is spiritually blind and is lead by the hand by spiritually blind leaders.  Paul's conversion "typed" this truth for us and it is shown to us again in these verses"

This is just not true.  We receive the Holy Spirit in our lives. Not after His return. When a born again christian has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The Helper which shows us the truth. We are not spiritually blind anymore, on the contrary, we can see the truth through the Holy Spirit.
Certainly, there is a bible verse about the blind leading the blind. But those are warnings for believers not to be like that. It is not a fact  that applies to all believers. (context context context) A fact that applies to all true believers is that through the Holy Spirit, we are NOT blind, we can see the truth.

Acts 2:38
38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

John 14:26
26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

John 16:13
13 But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

Romans 8:9
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

Ephesians 1:13-14
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Romans 8:16
16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,

ONLY born again believers who are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit are saved.
 

1 John 2:22-23
Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.

Matthew 10:33
But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;

God's words are clear, we are not blind. The Holy Spirit tells us so.

To put things into perspective.

• From your perspective it doesn't matter what I say. Everybody ends up in heaven anyway. And I am just giving folks a good scare. Believing the truth is not of importance.
• From my perspective, it does matter what you say. Believing the truth is a matter of life and death. A wrong belief in Jesus Christ, who is the Word, the Truth, the Way and the Life, will be a matter of eternal separation from God or eternal life with God. 

I had a long response written out and ready to post when I accidentally deleted it.  Ugh!  

Rather than try to re-write it, I think it is better just to end this discussion here since it does not seem to be benefiting you anyway.  

The one take-away I hope you received from our discussion is to understand that God's judgment is not to harm us but to make us pure and righteous.  He really does love us all and He will not stop working until we are all saved.  It is all His work and He will not fail.  

1 Tim 2:3-6  For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.  For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;  Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Joe

 

 

 

 

[WowLookaDuck]

8 hours ago, Faithwilldo said:

Most of God's truth is meant to be hidden in scripture

Your belief in this is what's led to all your esoteric beliefs. Are you ever unsettled by the fact that no one seems to agree with you? 

[Faithwilldo]

1 hour ago, WowLookaDuck said:

Your belief in this is what's led to all your esoteric beliefs. Are you ever unsettled by the fact that no one seems to agree with you? 

Christ came to me a second time on Oct 8th, 2005. I was 44 years old and had been in the "church" for most of my life.  At that time, He healed my blindness and gave me a large amount of faith.  Everything I thought I knew as truth changed.  Before this happened, I was an end-time prophecy teacher in my church and was very involved.  I was not much different than anyone else at my church.  But after my blindness was healed, it took only a few short weeks for me to decide to leave the church for good.  I learned quickly that light and darkness do not mix.  You would be very surprised at what the Lord has shown me in scripture since that time.  I have met a few people on-line who have had the same experience and it lead them to the same beliefs as mine.  You should go to my profile and read my testimony from that time.  

Here is why I never look back:

Matt 13:44  Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.

The "treasure" the Lord showed me changed my life.  Quickly my love for Him soared beyond what I ever thought was possible.  Christ truly is the Savior of the world and He has a plan to accomplish it.  Only a few know it as He intends because of what this verse says:

Matt 13:33  Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

When we first come to Christ, we remain spiritually blind and must be lead by the hand - just as Christ lead the blind man by the hand when He took him out of the city in Mark 8:21-25 and just as Paul was lead by the hand on the Damascus Road.  These described events represent the time of the Early Rain of the Spirit.  The Early Rain is not enough to save us because we are left spiritually blind and only have an earnest amount of the Spirit (a down-payment).  Because of our blindness, Satan comes to us and deceives us into believing that he is Christ and that his ways are truth.  It is not just some beliefs but ALL beliefs we have that are wrong.  The WHOLE LOAF IS LEAVENED and as we eat it, it spiritually kills us.  This is how Satan "kills the saints".  Under Satan's influence, we remain in this spiritually darkened place until and if Christ comes to us a second time.  Most believers will die in their sins because they simply were not chosen for Christ to come to them a second time.  This is "typed" for us by when the Nation of Israel wandered in the wilderness for 40 years.  Only Joshua and Caleb, who are a type of the Elect, live to cross the Jordan River into the Promised Land.  When they cross over, that event symbolizes when Christ comes to a fallen away believer a second time.  That is when a person is converted and saved.  This is the "pattern" we all must follow.  Paul laid it out for us when he was converted.  We have no "free will" ability to deviate from it.  We must travel the path that leads to destruction before we can be saved.  The destruction of the "man of sin" whom we have become occurs when Christ comes to us a second time.  Paul describes it this way:

2Thes 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that Man of Sin be revealed, the son of perdition;  4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 

In verse 1, Paul writes about the appearing of the Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto Him.  This appearance is the same as the “Day of Christ” (verse 2).  This event is the second coming of Christ to a "called" and "fallen away" believer.  As with the Early Rain, the Latter Rain of the Spirit is not a visible appearance to this earth but rather a spiritual event within the individual believer.  At this time, Christ gathers us to Him to dwell with Him in the heavens.  The Old Man begins to decrease and the New Man is born and begins to increase.  We still must "defeat the giants in the Land" and grow & mature to produce spiritual fruit before we are ready to be harvested into the Kingdom of Heaven.      

Paul says that the Day of the Lord cannot happen to a believer “except there come a falling away first and that Man of Sin be revealed”.   This “falling away” is a return to "works" for salvation and coupled with Satan’s lies and deceptions, a worsened carnal state is produced called the Man of Sin, the Son of Perdition.  This event is also described in Mat 12:45.  If anyone is going to be saved in this present age, they first must be deceived by Satan and become a "man of sin".  It is only then that Christ might come a second time to them (if they are chosen).   

Only the Truth which is Jesus Christ can destroy this Man of Sin whom we have become.

2Thes 2:8  And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

The spiritual terms “spirit of His mouth” & “brightness of His coming” represent Truth which we receive from the Holy Spirit. 

From this point forward, if the believer remains faithful unto the end , his race will be won and he will be awarded the Crown of Righteousness.  He will be included in the First-fruits of the harvest and will have overcome this world (carnality) just as Christ overcame this world.   However, it is not by our works that this happens – it is by the work of Christ.  We are His workmanship and that is why salvation is guaranteed for all mankind.

So before I post on any forum, I understand that what I say will not be accepted by most if not all people there.  However, if Christ has made anyone ready to receive His truth, He will heal their blindness and have them accept His truth.  

I consider myself one of the most blessed persons who has ever lived and I am driven by Christ to share my joy in Him to all who will listen.  I am still amazed at how strong Satan's deceptions are to those who are blind.  No matter how much light I shine on them, a blind person simply cannot see.  The only solution is for Christ to come to them and heal their blindness.   

Joe  

Edited August 31, 2020 by Faithwilldo

[Marathoner]

The Lord brought what you have written to my attention, @Faithwilldo, bidding me to read what you have shared on the forum. You have described that work which Jesus Christ started when He came to me out of the blue many years ago, when I was a young man ignorant of the Lord and His ways, walking in darkness. You have also described that work which the Son of God displayed when He came to me again many years later, when I was dying and close to the grave. I died with Christ and having been buried with Him, the Lord lifted me up into life promising that I will never taste death. As Christ came to you a second time He came to me again in like manner. This life I live is not my own. 

6 hours ago, Faithwilldo said:

I consider myself one of the most blessed persons who has ever lived and I am driven by Christ to share my joy in Him to all who will listen.

I bear witness to the truth of these words, Joe. You are the first I have met to reveal the testimony with such detail. Our Father in heaven blessed me with the honor of laying aside my life so that another might live, sparing me from death and the grave so I might live for His Son. My place is to serve my neighbor and encourage the brethren because this life is given to me by Jesus Christ, the Living One who holds the keys to death and hades.   

[Wesley L]

Dear Joe,

It happened to me before... all texts gone...
 

1 Timothy 2: 1-7
First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. 3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time. 7 For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying) as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

• God desires all men to be saved, does that mean all men are saved?
• God desires all men not to sin, does that mean that all men don't sin?
• God desires all husband to love their wives, does that mean all husbands love their wives?

Is the sacrifice of Jesus sufficient to save all, certainly!
But will everyone accept Jesus as savior, unfortunately not.
Everyone can certainly make use of the bible to fit their own beliefs. But what is God trying to tell you?

Jeremiah 29:13 You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart.
 

15 hours ago, Faithwilldo said:

The one take-away I hope you received from our discussion is to understand that God's judgment is not to harm us but to make us pure and righteous.  He really does love us all and He will not stop working until we are all saved.  It is all His work and He will not fail.  

Another wrong teaching is that God is failing when some people don't get saved. How can an almighty God not save everyone?
Can God save everyone, yes certainly He is God.
If God is only just, nobody gets saved.
It is God's mercy that some gets saved, the ones who trusts in Jesus as Lord and Savior.
It's God's love to give us the choice of redemption. We can deny it, and many will.

What you believe is called universalism, you should check it out and pray to the Lord to disclose you the truth. It is spread by the Word of Faith teachers. The problem with universalism is that it focus only on 1 aspect of God, all loving. But tends to forget that God is just and holy. It uses scripture out of context.

Exodus 20:4 “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.

Joe, I am not doubting that you have a kind and loving heart. 
Deep inside, I too wished that everybody was saved. I still have a lot of friends and family who are unbelievers. But I know, not everybody is willing to repent and put their trust in Jesus Christ.
The bible says, when we die, our body will go back to earth. Our souls will go back to God. And one day, we all will be resurrected in our new immortal bodies. That is when the judgement will come. That is when Jesus will look into the book of life.

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. (this verse is exclusive)

John 14:6 [universalism version]  jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; everybody comes to the father through me." (this verse became inclusive)

Revelation 20:15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:15 [universalism version]  And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. But will be saved afterwards.

I understand that you believe that after this, unbelievers will still have a chance.
It is our human will, our own desire that we think that when everybody is saved, that this would be the best solution to our problem. But God says otherwise. His will is clear through scripture. His will will be done, not our will, not our own desires.

God is willing to forgive everybody. But His will is that only the ones are saved who are trusting in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. God giving us free will, even when we use it to deny Him, to choose to live without Him, that is love.

Edited August 31, 2020 by Wesley L

[Wesley L]

18 hours ago, Faithwilldo said:

Most of God's truth is meant to be hidden in scripture but the issue of "free will" is not one since it is not true:

Jer 10:23  I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps. (Darby)

Isa 26:12  O Jehovah, Thou appointest peace to us, For, all our works also Thou hast wrought for us. (Darby)

Prov 16:1  The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Most people believe that since mankind has the ability to make "choices" that it stands to reason that we also have "free will".  But that reasoning is unsound.  To have a "free will", one must have the ability to make "uncaused" choices.  The above verses clearly say that God is the cause of what we say and do.  Mankind's "will" is certainly not "free".

Dear Joe,

Did something cause you to write this? Or did you freely choose to write this?
Did something cause me to answer you? Or did I choose to answer you?

The verses you use tells us that God is sovereign.
Just like when Jesus said:

John 19:11 Jesus answered, “You would have no authority over Me, unless it had been given you from above; for this reason he who delivered Me to you has the greater sin.”
 

Did God caused Jesus to be delivered? Or did the Jewish religious leaders delivered Jesus in their free will?
Did God caused the holocaust to happen?
Did God caused evil to happen?
That is the result of your claims. Not intentionally maybe but eventually that would be blasphemous.