Tongues?

[Guest kingdombrat]

1 hour ago, David1701 said:

Pentecostals and Charismatics (especially Charismatics) tend to focus much more on experience than sound exegesis of Scripture.  They often don't test their experiences, or teachings, properly against Scripture, meaning that there is a great deal of error, of all different kinds, and it usually goes uncorrected.

Classic Pentecostals are usually sounder, but very man-centred, with far more exhortation than sound understanding and teaching of Scripture.

Fair Enough!

 

But how do you know from your explanation that you are correct?   Paul said that [he] spoke in Tongues more than anyone and wished everyone spoke in Tongues as much as he did.

 

Let's examine what Paul just said here:

(1) He spoke in Tongues more than anyone.

(A) To speak in Tongues as much as Paul is confessing here is like a [daily language].  Surely Paul was not in Church every time he Spoke in Tongues, surely Paul was not being [Baptized in Christ] over and over to Speak in Tongues, so that leaves that Paul was able to Speak in Tongues (alone, in his home, as he traveled, as in his continual prayer) (which is the perfect example of how Speaking in Tongues EDIFIES the Soul and Spirit).

 

So then, if we can visually get a picture here that Paul could Speak in Tongues daily as part of his normal prayer Language (since he did brag about Speaking in Tongues more than anyone else and he was not always in a Church setting for this to take place) how is it any different than how the Pentecostals have explained it?

 

There is no difference because [it APPEARS] they understand Paul here better than most Believers about this subject.

Edited December 4, 2020 by kingdombrat

[Deadworm]

Posters here seem to ignore the most crucial issue: the most powerful and edifying spiritual experiences are counterfeited by Satan to prevent mass conversion and a deeper relationship with Christ.  In my case, as a teen ager I learned to speak in tongues and found it to create an ecstatic high.  But then I learned to doubt its authenticity and that doubt created a faith crisis.  Then at age 16, after a 7 mile-walk from a Pentecostal camp grounds, I fasted the evening meal and put the meal money in the offering plate of the evening  camp meeting.  I felt I had lost my faith and was desperate to experience the real thing.

I lingered at the altar after the meeting until most had left the outdoor amphitheater and was determined not to succumb to wishful thinking.  Then I felt a breeze and assumed that it had blown in from the adjacent lake.  In fact, it was the mightily Holy Spirit, who soon filled me so mightily that I felt compelled to speak in tongues at the top of my voice.  I was engulfed by wave after wave of liquid love, each more intense than the last, until I feared God's powerful presence would kill me and my ego seemed about to be absorbed in the mind of God!  Spectators sat in awe and would later tell me  that my face was glowing in the now darkened amphitheater.  A Lutheran minister approached me and said he didn't believe in speaking in tongues and was just there as an interested observer.  I just touched him softly on his forehead and he exploded in other tongues.

The upshot of that experience was an awareness that my mind had been so transformed that I would get the highest average in the province in my senior year of high school.  A photograph of the premier of Manitoba is nailed to my living room wall, acknowledging that fact and awarding me a large college scholarship in return.  My Spirit baptism had imparted the gift of "the word of knowledge" to me and you can read my testimony about this gift in the Testimony section.  That fateful day was by far the most electrifying and happiest day of my life and  to this day I am nourished by the very memory of that mind-blowing ecstasy.

[David1701]

2 hours ago, kingdombrat said:

Fair Enough!

 

But how do you know from your explanation that you are correct?   Paul said that [he] spoke in Tongues more than anyone and wished everyone spoke in Tongues as much as he did.

 

Let's examine what Paul just said here:

(1) He spoke in Tongues more than anyone.

(A) To speak in Tongues as much as Paul is confessing here is like a [daily language].  Surely Paul was not in Church every time he Spoke in Tongues, surely Paul was not being [Baptized in Christ] over and over to Speak in Tongues, so that leaves that Paul was able to Speak in Tongues (alone, in his home, as he traveled, as in his continual prayer) (which is the perfect example of how Speaking in Tongues EDIFIES the Soul and Spirit).

 

So then, if we can visually get a picture here that Paul could Speak in Tongues daily as part of his normal prayer Language (since he did brag about Speaking in Tongues more than anyone else and he was not always in a Church setting for this to take place) how is it any different than how the Pentecostals have explained it?

 

There is no difference because [it APPEARS] they understand Paul here better than most Believers about this subject.

In private, no interpretation is needed (although it would still be helpful).  In a public meeting, if someone speaks out loud, in a tongue, it should be interpreted, for the common good.

Some Pentecostals accept this, but many do not; and I have been in meetings where most were speaking out loud, in tongues, at the same time, without interpretations.  There was at least one unbeliever in the meeting, who thought that everyone was mad.  This is not a helpful result; but it is what the Bible says would happen, with the disorder of many speaking in tongues at once, and without interpretation, in public meetings.

1 Cor. 14:23-28 (WEB)

23 If therefore the whole assembly is assembled together and all speak with other languages, and unlearned or unbelieving people come in, won’t they say that you are crazy?
24 But if all prophesy, and someone unbelieving or unlearned comes in, he is reproved by all, and he is judged by all.
25 And thus the secrets of his heart are revealed. So he will fall down on his face and worship God, declaring that God is among you indeed. 
26 What is it then, brothers? When you come together, each one of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has another language, has an interpretation. Let all things be done to build each other up.
27 If any man speaks in another language, let it be two, or at the most three, and in turn; and let one interpret.
28 But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in the assembly, and let him speak to himself, and to God.

[Guest kingdombrat]

50 minutes ago, David1701 said:

In private, no interpretation is needed (although it would still be helpful).  In a public meeting, if someone speaks out loud, in a tongue, it should be interpreted, for the common good.

Some Pentecostals accept this, but many do not; and I have been in meetings where most were speaking out loud, in tongues, at the same time, without interpretations.  There was at least one unbeliever in the meeting, who thought that everyone was mad.  This is not a helpful result; but it is what the Bible says would happen, with the disorder of many speaking in tongues at once, and without interpretation, in public meetings.

1 Cor. 14:23-28 (WEB)

23 If therefore the whole assembly is assembled together and all speak with other languages, and unlearned or unbelieving people come in, won’t they say that you are crazy?
24 But if all prophesy, and someone unbelieving or unlearned comes in, he is reproved by all, and he is judged by all.
25 And thus the secrets of his heart are revealed. So he will fall down on his face and worship God, declaring that God is among you indeed. 
26 What is it then, brothers? When you come together, each one of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has another language, has an interpretation. Let all things be done to build each other up.
27 If any man speaks in another language, let it be two, or at the most three, and in turn; and let one interpret.
28 But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in the assembly, and let him speak to himself, and to God.

I agree that some accept it and some do not.   My [point] is merely that those Pentecostals in the (some) category are in line with God's Word pertaining to what Paul was claiming.   But [isn't that] true for all Protestant Organizations throughout the entire diversities of Biblical Topics?

 

I just think it's easy to slam Pentecostals as a [whole] for groups who have deceived themselves into thinking the knowledge they have is in line with God's Holy Word.   But truth be told, many sects like Baptist's, Presbyterian's, Methodist's, Wesleyan's, Lutheran's, etc etc etc are all following man made idealism not perfectly aligned with God's Word.

 

Even when we think about certain [Creeds], those are ultimately "truths" found within the Bible but they are still outlined by human definition and importance.   And some could even say after understanding the [whole truths] about Constantine that some of these Creed's are not completely inspired by those who have devoted their life to the God of the Holy Bible.  Case in point, the first gathering under Constantine was to be participated by over 1,600+ men of God.   But knowing that Constantine was not himself a (Christian) only 300 and just above actually showed up and participated.  So even our Holy Bible was constructed under the guise of a [non-Believer].

Edited December 4, 2020 by kingdombrat

[Duck]

7 hours ago, David1701 said:

I have been in meetings where most were speaking out loud, in tongues, at the same time, without interpretations. 

Me too.

It was utter madness.

I wonder, did Jesus speak in tongues?

[Duck]

http://wesley.nnu.edu/john-wesley/the-sermons-of-john-wesley-1872-edition/sermon-89-the-more-excellent-way/

It does not appear that these extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost were common in the church for more than two or three centuries. We seldom hear of them after that fatal period when the Emperor Constantine called himself a Christian; and, from a vain imagination of promoting the Christian cause thereby, heaped riches and power and honour upon the Christians in general, but in particular upon the Christian clergy.

From this time they almost totally ceased; very few instances of the kind were found. The cause of this was not, (as has been vulgarly supposed,) `because there was no more occasion for them,’ because all the world was become Christians. This is a miserable mistake; not a twentieth part of it was then nominally Christian.

The real cause was, `the love of many,’ almost of all Christians, so called, was ‘waxed cold.’ The Christians had no more of the Spirit of Christ than the other heathens. The Son of Man, when he came to examine his church, could hardly `find faith upon the earth’. This was the real cause why the extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost were no longer to be found in the Christian church; because the Christians were turned heathens again, and had only a dead form left.

[Guest kingdombrat]

8 hours ago, Duck said:

http://wesley.nnu.edu/john-wesley/the-sermons-of-john-wesley-1872-edition/sermon-89-the-more-excellent-way/

It does not appear that these extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost were common in the church for more than two or three centuries. We seldom hear of them after that fatal period when the Emperor Constantine called himself a Christian; and, from a vain imagination of promoting the Christian cause thereby, heaped riches and power and honour upon the Christians in general, but in particular upon the Christian clergy.

From this time they almost totally ceased; very few instances of the kind were found. The cause of this was not, (as has been vulgarly supposed,) `because there was no more occasion for them,’ because all the world was become Christians. This is a miserable mistake; not a twentieth part of it was then nominally Christian.

The real cause was, `the love of many,’ almost of all Christians, so called, was ‘waxed cold.’ The Christians had no more of the Spirit of Christ than the other heathens. The Son of Man, when he came to examine his church, could hardly `find faith upon the earth’. This was the real cause why the extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost were no longer to be found in the Christian church; because the Christians were turned heathens again, and had only a dead form left.

Ironically, the man who is well known for shedding light on the "Trinity," [Tertullian], joined a group called Montanis years later and Tertullian professed to Speaking in Tongues on a daily and spontaneous basis.

 

Constantine was not a Believer until his death bed confession.   Why would you ever think Speaking in Tongues and the witness of the Holy Spirit in [Action] could be relative to Constantine?

 

But my question for you is this:

If the man who gave us the "Trinity" idea and later joined a group where he confessed to daily [Speaking in Tongues]...if his Tongue Speaking is not Biblical, are you now saying his "Trinity" view is not Biblical?

Edited December 5, 2020 by kingdombrat

[David1701]

17 hours ago, kingdombrat said:

I agree that some accept it and some do not.   My [point] is merely that those Pentecostals in the (some) category are in line with God's Word pertaining to what Paul was claiming.   But [isn't that] true for all Protestant Organizations throughout the entire diversities of Biblical Topics?

 

I just think it's easy to slam Pentecostals as a [whole] for groups who have deceived themselves into thinking the knowledge they have is in line with God's Holy Word.   But truth be told, many sects like Baptist's, Presbyterian's, Methodist's, Wesleyan's, Lutheran's, etc etc etc are all following man made idealism not perfectly aligned with God's Word.

 

Even when we think about certain [Creeds], those are ultimately "truths" found within the Bible but they are still outlined by human definition and importance.   And some could even say after understanding the [whole truths] about Constantine that some of these Creed's are not completely inspired by those who have devoted their life to the God of the Holy Bible.  Case in point, the first gathering under Constantine was to be participated by over 1,600+ men of God.   But knowing that Constantine was not himself a (Christian) only 300 and just above actually showed up and participated.  So even our Holy Bible was constructed under the guise of a [non-Believer].

Our Holy Bible was not constructed under Constantine.

[David1701]

16 hours ago, rhomphaeam said:

I also wanted to encourage you brother. I read your comment about the Welsh Revival and you acknowledged the post I made about the Hebridean Revival and the issue of God' sovereign will. I also have read many of your comments over the last two weeks and see that you have a formal and easily digested exegesis grounded in Scripture. I think that it would be advantageous to your calling to make some connections in Wales and the Hebrides that would help you to test your own concerns which as it seems to me are presently grounded in a formal frame of reference but are likely to transcend into prophetic tones if you knew that there is a sound way to do that based on men of a similar mind as your own. 

The Lord has burdened me with his church from the moment the Father came into my prison cell in May 1984 and revealed Himself in the Spirit. Your signature verse is the first way that Satan began to sift me by permission of the Father just hours after I was born again. Even though I knew about Christ and indeed the entirety of the corpus of Christian teaching, I didn't actually know Christ. I had been a solo treble in a High Church choir and so I sang the entire catechism in Latin and English from being a small child. I often looked at the interior of the church I was in communion with and asked myself who is God. That kind of childish need to know God and to sense that He was both near and yet beyond my reach never left me even when I became an occultist and truly rebelled. And it was in that condition that the Father found me. Shaking my fist at Him and determining to rebel and to do so with a wilful determination that had the prison officers nervous of me. Yet God was not absent even from my childhood. 

So Satan came to taunt me that I could not be a real Christian otherwise how could I have asked God who Christ was. I then came across that verse you hold so dear and Satan fled away. That night I knew Christ with the same presence and meaning as I had come to know the Father. And it was that character of learning by a sovereign will of God that my faith was formed and my ongoing ambition to know the Lord's calling has gripped me ever since. Lewis, Wales and numerous other places in the UK have been ports of learning to that end. Of course I knew what my calling was in the prison cell, but I could not have realised then that it would take 36 years to come to the place where it would be clear what the Lord is going to do to make His servants obedient and to truly empower his chosen ones to dress in readiness for His Son. 

In that meaning these insanities that now have dredged up the very bowels of hell into the house of God will be thrown down and laid waste unless true repentance comes. 

Lewis is going to be in that meaning as the sruthán runs to the Loch and the Loch to the Cuan. The Lord has been sifting some that I know in Lewis so well that they are literally almost silent waiting upon the prophetic hand of God to open the gates. The same is happening in other places also. In the North East of England and in the Valleys in Wales. Did you know brother, that in all the time that I knew Donald Macphail he was so turned to see the hand of God that he never did once speak of his part in the Hebridean Revival for fear of boasting in his flesh? Not once in the entire time. He looked to God and God sifted him and his son also. His son is waiting in Lewis for the time that is nearly at hand. 

Forgive me for being so open but I have been burdened to share this for a few weeks. 

When I was undone and laid down in sorrow at realising that God was indeed God and then asking for forgiveness was 'who is Christ?' 

You don't need to be forgiven for being open!

Thank you for this post.  It is encouraging to come across others who clearly have a heart for God and genuine faith in Him.  There are others here who also show that, of course; but, the more the better.

I have heard of Donald Macphail (and that he was a godly man) but I don't know much about the present spiritual situation in the Hebrides (or Wales, or N. E. England); although I used to know someone who was delivered from freewillism in Lewis; in fact, when I last met him (some years ago), he apologised to me for his previous opposition to the doctrines of grace and asked for forgiveness, which I gave him, of course.  I was just pleased that my brother had become genuinely humble before the Lord.  He was clearly a changed man (for the better).

The last I heard about Wales was that many of the Chapels had closed down or been turned to secular use, but that there were pockets of life (e.g. Arthur Burt).

P.S. 

Quote

I think that it would be advantageous to your calling to make some connections in Wales and the Hebrides that would help you to test your own concerns which as it seems to me are presently grounded in a formal frame of reference but are likely to transcend into prophetic tones if you knew that there is a sound way to do that based on men of a similar mind as your own.

You are very perceptive...

I will say only this, the formal way that I often address issues on forums, is to accommodate to that medium.  I can teach a bit, but I'm not called to be a teacher.  I usually don't tell people what my calling is; but I know.

Edited December 5, 2020 by David1701

[David1701]

10 hours ago, Duck said:

Me too.

It was utter madness.

I wonder, did Jesus speak in tongues?

We're not told; but I very much doubt that he would have needed to.