Tongues and prophesying...

[Deadworm]

2 minutes ago, leah777 said:

Ok. So I am not saved. Fine.

It's fine with you that you're not saved?!  Actually, classic Pentecostalism distinguishes Spirit baptism (Acts 1:5) from the regenerating work of the Spirit and considers it a second work of grace.  Pentecostals would challenge your sarcasm by asking you this pointed question: if Paul wants you to speak in tongues and sets the example by speaking in tongues more than everyone, why don't you want what the Holy Spirit wants for you for your spiritual empowerment?

 

 

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, leah777 said:

Ok. So I am not saved. Fine.

And I guess those who are mute are destined to be damned.

[leah777]

1 hour ago, Deadworm said:

It's fine with you that you're not saved?!  Actually, classic Pentecostalism distinguishes Spirit baptism (Acts 1:5) from the regenerating work of the Spirit and considers it a second work of grace.  Pentecostals would challenge your sarcasm by asking you this pointed question: if Paul wants you to speak in tongues and sets the example by speaking in tongues more than everyone, why don't you want what the Holy Spirit wants for you for your spiritual empowerment?

 

 

So many assumptions in this post. I will address none of them.

[leah777]

1 hour ago, ChickenCoop said:

And I guess those who are mute are destined to be damned.

Looks like it. All who do not speak in tongues appear to be not true believers after all. How sad. 

[Don19]

4 hours ago, Deadworm said:

The doctrine that tongues is THE initial evidence of Spirit baptism is based on 3 facts:                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 (1) In the Book of Acts new believes are baptized in the Spirit 4 times.  In 3 of the 4 cases the initial evidence of this baptism is speaking in tongues.  In the 4th case, the initial evidence is not specified, but when Simon the Magician sees what happens, he offers Peter money to bestow on him the power of imparting the experience.  If that inference is correct, then that's 4 for 4--a pattern sufficient  to establish the doctrine.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 (2) In Mark 16:17 the risen Jesus identities speaking in tongues as the 2nd sign of the true believer.                                                                                                                                                    (3) In 1 Corinthians Paul says he wants everyone to speak in tongues and thanks God that he speaks in tongues more than anyone else (14:5, 18).  This wish and Paul's reinforcing example are allegedly based on the doctrine of tongues as the initial evidence of Spirit baptism.

 

 

All "evidence" that is decisively refuted by 1 Cor 12:1-13.

A few things to note about this passage: Holy Spirit baptism happens to all, upon conversion (Gal 3:2, Eph 1:13-14). All have been made to drink in one Spirit. Moreover, tongues and prophecy are just two of many more possible gifts.

 

1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

² Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

³ Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

⁴ Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

⁵ And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

⁶ And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

⁷ But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

⁸ For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

⁹ To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

¹⁰ To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

¹¹ But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

¹² For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

¹³ For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Edited August 25, 2020 by Don19

[Deadworm]

1 hour ago, leah777 said:

So many assumptions in this post. I will address none of them.

The Bible is not in itself a book of systematic theology.  For this reason, we must compare Scripture with Scripture to develop doctrine, and even our inferences are based on assumptions, plausible or implausible.  So by declining to address textual assumptions, you might as well admit that you are not interested enough in the quest for Truth to thoroughly study the Word.  

btw, I never said I accept the Pentecostal position on tongues as the initial evidence of Spirit baptism.  I'm just articulating THEIR position, just as I defend Catholicism here, despite my disagreements with aspects of it, simply because evangelicals seem to hate Catholics so much that they are unwilling even to try to understand how an informed Catholic might defend her position biblically.  So in the interest of fair play and compassionate listening I feel compelled to play Devil's Advocate on many denominational differences.

 

Don: "All "evidence" that is decisively refuted by 1 Cor 12:1-13."

A Pentecostal might summarily dispatch your claim with these 4 points:

First, the believer may profess faith in Christ, but not yet have "drunk in" the Spirit, which is an experience of divine power and not just a doctrine of what it means to accept Christ.  They might only be grafted into the body of Christ when they experience the Spirit just as the majority of the 120 experienced the Spirit at Pentecost.  That's how a Pentecostal might respond. 

Second, the Spirit baptism of the 120 in Acts 2 is the initial work of the Spirit in the lives of all but the  11 disciples, on whom Jesus breathed the Spirit in John 20:22-23.

Third, unlike Paul, Luke shows no awareness of the doctrine that believers receive the regenerating Spirit at conversion in an act separate from their Spirit baptism.

Fourth, Paul says he wants them all to speak in tongues and thanks God that he speaks in tongues more than them all (14:5, 18)." adding that they can ALL prophesy one at a time (14:31).  That implies that speaking in tongues and prophesying are not gifts reserved for a favored few, but gifts intended for every believer with the Spirit.

Edited August 25, 2020 by Deadworm

[leah777]

1 hour ago, Deadworm said:

So by declining to address textual assumptions, you might as well admit that you are not interested enough in the quest for Truth to thoroughly study the Word.  

another assumption and judgement.

I said to you that I will not address them with you or discuss them with you. I hope you are not calling my salvation into question here?

[Don19]

1 hour ago, Deadworm said:

Don: "All "evidence" that is decisively refuted by 1 Cor 12:1-13."

 

A Pentecostal might summarily dispatch your claim with these 4 points:

 

First, the believer may profess faith in Christ, but not yet have "drunk in" the Spirit, which is an experience of divine power and not just a doctrine of what it means to accept Christ.

That is my understanding.

1 Cor 4:20:

For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.

1 Thess 1:4-5:

⁴ Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

⁵ For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

 

1 hour ago, Deadworm said:

Second, the Spirit baptism of the 120 in Acts 2 is the initial work of the Spirit in the lives of all but the  11 disciples, on whom Jesus breathed the Spirit in John 20:22-23.

The disciples didn't receive the Comforter in John 20. Jesus said he would send the Comforter only after His departure (John 16:7). Moreover, one must be born again to see or enter the kingdom of God, but in Acts 1:6 the silly question ought to be taken to show the disciples were still ignorant that the kingdom of God is spiritual, and comes not with observation (Luke 17:20-21). So I take it the disciples received the Spirit in a more limited capacity, as in the Old Testament.

 

1 hour ago, Deadworm said:

Third, unlike Paul, Luke shows no awareness of the doctrine that believers receive the regenerating Spirit at conversion in an act separate from their Spirit baptism.

Paul puts the gift of the Spirit right at conversion (Gal 3:14), and he states rather clearly what the Spirit does for all believers. Whatever the particular manifestation of the Spirit in a given believer, the Spirit is given for the purpose of assurance of salvation. Hence Paul calls the Spirit the earnest (which is a pledge) of our inheritance, and he says the Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God.

Eph 1:13-14:

¹³ In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

¹⁴ Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

2 Cor 1:21-22:

²¹ Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;

²² Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Rom 8:15-16:

¹⁵ For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

¹⁶ The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

1 Cor 2:12:

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

 

1 hour ago, Deadworm said:

Fourth, Paul says he wants them all to speak in tongues and thanks God that he speaks in tongues more than them all (14:5, 18)." adding that they can ALL prophesy one at a time (14:31).  That implies that speaking in tongues and prophesying are not gifts reserved for a favored few, but gifts intended for every believer with the Spirit.

Yet 1 Cor 12:28-30 shows plainly that no all speak in tongues, just as not all are apostles or prophets. Moreover, these are just a few snippets when the whole context is Paul exalting other gifts over tongues.

[Deadworm]

1 hour ago, leah777 said:

another assumption and judgement.

I said to you that I will not address them with you or discuss them with you. I hope you are not calling my salvation into question here?

And by ducking my points you naturally create the impression that you don't grasp the issues.  And I feel so "right" about that "assumption."

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Deadworm said:

And by ducking my points you naturally create the impression that you don't grasp the issues.  And I feel so "right" about that "assumption."

Not a very polite thing to say to her. She is a very sweet lady and a dear friend of mine.  Your disrespect for her is not exactly what I would call Godly.