The Wheat And The Tares

[enoob57]

On 10/21/2020 at 1:50 PM, Starise said:

Text- Matthew 14: 24-30

 

²⁴ Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. ²⁵ But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. ²⁶ When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.

²⁷ “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’

²⁸ “‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.

“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’

²⁹ “‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. ³⁰ Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”

 

 

In one view, the angels are those who gather the crop in the end. As such we are not to meddle in with the tares presently. In fact, the angels are told to wait until the end and gather the tares then. This is because gathering the tares now would cause problems to the good wheat. 

Tares look very similar to the wheat. 

Question- Who are the tares? Possible answer- They are the lost in the church who appear to be saved. Tares don't produce any real crop. Tares are those who talk the talk but don't walk the walk.. There's also the scripture that says, " By their fruits you shall know them". 

Since there are some people who do good things yet are not saved, how could one be discerned "by their fruits".

There are also backslidden people who are not tares  that could be seen as tares by others when they really aren't.

Take away- It can be a dangerous thing to try to determine who the wheat and the tares are. This isn't really our job as I understand it. 

Could there be people who think they are wheat when in reality they are really tares? Or do they know they are tares? 

Could tares possibly be assisting the work of the church even though they are tares? Do we have any right  to distance ourselves from someone we think might be a tare? 

If we suspect a tare, should we keep that to ourselves?

Thoughts? 

There is this in Scripture:
1 Corinthians 3:10-15 (KJV) [10] According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
[11] For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
[12] Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
[13] Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
[14] If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
[15] If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
As that which is thought to be fruit is found not to be...  we must leave all judgement to God as we cannot tell for sure!

[Don19]

3 hours ago, Josheb said:

The parable is about the kingdom, the kingdom of God. In God's kingdom there are both tares and wheat.

I have to object to this. Jesus said the field is the world, and the wheat are the children of the kingdom. The tares are not in the kingdom but in the world. Just as the wheat are in the world (but are children of the kingdom). But, as was pointed out: tares resemble wheat until they are mature.

Moreover, Jesus said the kingdom is likened unto a man who sowed good seed in a field. In other words, Jesus is the One Who sowed good seed (Mat 13:37).

But I agree with you that the tares are false professors, not merely unbelievers in general. Some have tried to interpret tares as the unsaved in general, regardless of religious profession, but I believe Jesus is talking about tares as false professors.

The parable seems to suggest to me that tares can generally be identified as tares, but not infallibly so. Or else, the angels wouldn't know their right from their left. Indeed, Jesus gave us good tests: you will know them by their fruits--that is, the metaphor of fruits refers to the words they speak (Matthew 12:24-37), and NOT, as most believe, their works of the flesh. The one who speaks against the Holy Spirit does not have forgiveness. The Holy Spirit seals the believer and witnesses to him his adoption (Romans 8:16, Eph 1:13-14), and the security of his salvation, so it is only logical why we can say that the one who speaks against the Holy Spirit does not have forgiveness, as a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand. But the children of the kingdom have been translated into the kingdom (Col 1:13) - this, of course, by the Holy Spirit, and the sheep know the Shepherd's voice. So that's why I nitpick here: the tares are not "in the kingdom" because they are not in Christ. So it's wrong to say that there are both tares and wheat "In God's kingdom." Christ's kingdom is not divided against itself, even if tares have been sown among the wheat, because the kingdom comes not with observation (Luke 17:20-21), so the kingdom is not the so-called "visible church." If it were, it would be divided against itself--how, then, shall it stand?

[Starise]

I won't quote it all again, but thanks for the references everyone!

Later on in Matthew we see the explanation for this parable Matt 13:37-43

³⁷ He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. ³⁸ The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, ³⁹ and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

⁴⁰ “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. ⁴¹ The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. ⁴² They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. ⁴³ Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.

This explanation doesn't overtly cite the church as the place where the tares reside, It could be though. The location is given as the world. The good seed are those of the kingdom ( not of this world).  The reason I thought it more the church was because wheat and tares grow VERY close together. The roots could even be intertwined.

The location as literal "world" could be anywhere on planet earth. A part of verse 38 is especially curious. "The weeds are the people of the evil one". 

We all come from the same place, so how does one get to be a child of the evil one? There are several possible answers to this. Doing nothing about Jesus. No decisions. No thoughts about Him. Maybe aggressively ignoring Him. God then "gives you over" to yourself. Since we are all evil by nature doing nothing will leave us as we are. If you don't take the first step, the journey will never be made.

Another possibility is these people were designed to be the way they are. This approach to an answer is probably controversial. If looking at the parable in a more literal sense we don't see the possibility  wheat will become Tares or Tares wheat. They have already been designated to be what they are. I admit to some struggle with this answer but we have some validation for it. John the Baptist was filled with the spirit in his mother's womb. When did John make his mind up about Jesus?He was foreshadowed to go before Jesus.

Does this mean tares can't become wheat? I think personally they can. It would seem to me though that the outcomes are known. When someone purposes to be something this is what they are. This means they made a willful choice to reject Jesus. This is what they are now. Doesn't mean they aren't capable to change, but they won't. In that sense, God who knows the future is free to label them what He knows they will be. 

Tares are sown by the evil one. This would imply they are in some way manipulated or controlled by him. If they can be sown in certain location this at least implies control. There goes the idea the unsaved think they are "free" if they aren't Christians. They are simply under the devils system of operations. His tools to do his biding. 

The most powerful forces- Those of God Almighty will simply eliminate the tares. This is telling. If you are allowing those you control to be removed into a furnace, you surely have no control over it....or simply don't care. I think it's both. Just one more sucker. One more win for the devil or devils. First use them and then take as many as you can with you. If you are a tare, this is who you follow.

 

[Adstar]

On 10/23/2020 at 10:44 PM, Starise said:

The only caveat I see with this is that maybe some will think a brother who has a different view of what has been deemed a "non essential" doctrine is believing in a false doctrine , when maybe it is really just a matter of opinion over a less than clear scripture. In fact, maybe one of the parties is wrong and simply isn't aware they are looking at it the wrong way. It might be important to clarify what "non essentials" are. The definition might also change with the individual. 

Well each individual will have the ideas they have on what is essential and what is a side issue.. But God of course knows what is essential and who has accepted the essentials and who has not.. There is a correct position on the interpretation of all portions of scripture and i believe some scripture has a surface meaning and a secondary subsurface meaning.. So two believers can gain two different messages from a portion of scripture and both can be correct..

 

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Sometimes I see tares as maybe being in league with a church, agreeing to all of the church rules, yet not really a Christian. I have met some people who thought they were Christians, held high positions in the church but who realized years later they were not in fact Christians. I think some tares might not even realize they are tares. In contrast to someone who is a black and white difference, as in no doubts at all they are not Christian. These people "fit in" well. Might be sitting in the pew next to you. They might be involved in the church. Some of those types of people we may never know about until the very end. 
 

 

Good observation, Yes many tares don't realize they are tares.. Before i read the Bible i did not realize i was a tare.. Before that Christianity was simply what was told to me by my dad or the priest or the nuns..  There are a lot of people who have been attending their churches for decades and decades who have never read the Bible and also there are a lot of people who have done many guided Bible studies and even attended Bible colleges who have never actually picked up a Bible and read it from start to finish reading it like a book..  Their Bible studies have been about a doctrine being presented to them and diverse verses grabbed from all over the Bible that proport to support that doctrine..  Of course people should know that verses should be read in context, not just viewed in isolation.. A lot of false doctrine has been founded on single verses quoted in isolation..

 

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Some so called Christian belief systems set themselves in stark contrast to mainline Christian denominations and are mostly considered to be not Christian at the core due to what might seem like minor discrepancies in their beliefs, when in fact they are major departures from both Christian belief and scripture. They try to associate themselves with Christians when in fact, they are not. I believe these are to be exposed as much as we can as is mentioned in Peter. While there may be some sincere mislead Christians in these fake churches. The majority are simply tares.Might be a sprig or two of wheat in there.

The Sprig or two of Wheat over time will eventually be troubled in their conscience by the false doctrines they are being fed in their churches... Thats when they will have to make the crunch decision if they will leave that church which often can include leaving ones community and even ones family or if they will remain living a lie in that false church..  Of course God has made it clear we are to get out of false churches..

(Revelation 18:4-5) "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. {5} For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities."

 

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To me, the more serious cases are the chameleons. The people who are nice people. Who help out, but at their core they aren't believers. 

 

 

Well some nice people are nice because they are nice people.. Some people are nice because they want to earn Gods approval.. Some people are not nice because they have personality flaws some people are not nice because they love being nasty..  What is important is what ones believes and trusts in relation to the will of God..  People can lack social graces and others can have short tempers and other personality flaws but they can acknowledge the truth of the LORD and be forgiven their faults.. There are some oddball true Christians out there and some really nice non-Christians too..

 

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It can be dangerous to go out and try to take out the tares. Ever read Cotton Mather? So how do we deal with situations like this? Maybe God is giving those tares some last minute time to make a real decision so mercy is one of His motives.

Well we are not really called upon to ""take out the tares"" We focus on the beliefs and shine the Light on them to shew them either approved doctrine or that they are false doctrines.. In the end people can believe as they will.. Like a watchman spoken of in the Bible as long as we have given the truth to others we have done Gods will and we shall be in the right place with God.. Those who reject the truth / the warnings are responsible for their own eternal destiny.. And yes a false believer / deceived believer ensnared in false doctrine can indeed end up repenting of their former beliefs and come to embrace the real Gospel of the LORD . I thank the LORD for that work friend who gifted me a Bible 30 years ago.. Changed my life forever..

[Don19]

3 hours ago, Josheb said:

Let's take a look at the verse to which you're referencing because the world's is God's kingdom; He made it and it is His and His alone. 

Matthew 13:24-43
"Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field.  But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away.  But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also.  The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?'  And he said to them, 'An enemy has done this!' The slaves said to him, 'Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?'  But he said, 'No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them.  'Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.'" 
Matthew 13:36-43 
"Then He left the crowds and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him and said, 'Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.'  And He said, 'The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man,  and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one;  and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels.  So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.  The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,  and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.  Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.'"

The verse in bold-faced black text (vs 37) is the verse to which you are referencing but just two sentences later (vs 41) Jesus states quite plainly these "stumbling blocks" (tares) are being removed from the kingdom. 

Okay, but I would interpret verse 41 to refer to the fact that those who have been translated into the kingdom of His dear Son (Col 1:13) are heirs of all things. Paul tells the Corinthians in 1 Cor 3:22-23

²² Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are your's;

²³ And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

And he says in Romans 8:32:

He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

And likewise Jesus says, the meek shall inherit the earth. And Psalm 111:6: says,

He hath shewed his people the power of his works, that he may give them the heritage of the heathen.

 

So here is the point I was disputing: are tares "in the kingdom"? According to Col 1:13, there's no way you could argue that. Only the regenerate believers have been translated into the kingdom. Jesus said you must be born again to see or enter His kingdom. On the other hand, the kingdom of God is everlasting, and has already been established by Jesus Christ, and we rule spiritually over all things. All things are ours. So, in that sense, the wicked are "in God's kingdom" but as stumbling blocks and as things that offend, which shall be put down in judgment, and Jesus Christ will make His people judges of them (1 Cor 6:2), and He also says in Rev 2:26-27:

²⁶ And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

²⁷ And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

We are being conformed to the image of Jesus. Well, Jesus, being the Creator of the universe and King of kings and Lord of lords, did condescend from His high estate to our lowly one, so that we may raised up in Him and seated in heavenly places in Him. So, we are co-heirs with Christ of all things. So, yes, in that sense, the wicked will be removed from the kingdom.

 

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This is important. This is important intellectually, this is important doctrinally, and this is important practically. Why? Because if this parable is read to say there is a place where God doesn't rule then logic dictates there is a place where God is not ruling, He is not sovereign, and He is not almighty.  That then necessarily leads to the conclusion all the promises of scripture pertaining to believers relying on his sovereign might in the world are false because hHe doesn't have sovereign might in the world; the world id not His and His is not its ruler.

God is the Ruler of all things. But the Scripture also calls Satan the "god of this world." There's no contradiction: Satan is just a stooge, a piece of wicked clay, that God created to do whatever He wanted. Psalm 115:3: But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.

Satan can do nothing whatsoever apart from God's plan and purpose.

Case in point, compare:

2 Samuel 24:1: And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

1 Chronicles 21:1: And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

 

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We are (adopted) sons of the Most High God and there is no place in all of creation where the Creator does not rule. 

Amen!

 

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And when we start acting like that's true the world will look different. 

Amen!

 

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But we have to overcome bad teaching that ignores one verse over another, teaching that says the world is full of tares and therefore not God's kingdom because it ignores verse 41.

I just addressed this, and hopefully cleared up the confusion and seeming paradox. The children of the kingdom, that being us, are heirs of all things. Heirs of all things present and to come, and not just prospectively but actually and irrevocably! But the world is certainly full of tares, and God's kingdom is not of this world (John 18:36). That's not at all to suggest that God does not totally rule over His creation, but the kingdom of God is not after the way of this world. In other words, the way of the world is work; it is, "ye shall be as gods." So instead of having everything provided to us freely of God, we have to work to make ends meet in this present evil world. Yet, only for just a while longer, until we freely inherit all things.

 

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You do understand that although the Bible uses the language of war, conflict, and struggle it does so within the overarching context of an almighty God Who is always everywhere knowing everything and almighty?

Of course.

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He's the super-armored tank and satan is holding a bb gun that shoots spit wads. There's no actual war for God. He's the nuclear explosion that instantly incinerates everything, and satan is the guy running the opposite direction urinating in his onesy. There's no actual contest. You understand this, yes? 

Absolutely!

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If so then factor it in to the parable of Matthew 13. Stop looking at the world through the eyes of finite former sinner. 

Indeed, but there's no contradiction to what I said.

 

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Jesus did say the field is the world. Jesus did say the wheat are "sons of the kingdom." You got that part correct. Big hug. However, that last sentence is incorrect. Matthew 13:41 tells us these tares are being removed from the kingdom. Somehow a false dichotomy was laid hold of wherein the world is not God's kingdom and tares aren't in it. 

The error I was seeking to combat is the notion that the visible church is God's kingdom, and that within it is an invisible church. Yes, God is King over all creation, not just the visible church. But those who have been translated into the kingdom (Col 1:13) are only those who are born again, not false professors by means of church membership.

 

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One of the points being made in the parable is that the kingdom is going to be cleaned up. The tares will be removed. The kingdom of God had come upon him. The sower of the wheat stood before them teaching, healing, casting out demons, and commanding creation itself. The kingdom of God is in fact on earth; it is all of creation, both the heavens and the earth. There is no place where God is not sovereign and Jesus is not King of all kings and one day every single kneee will bow in confession of that fact to the glory of his Father.

Yes, amen! The kingdom of God has come upon them.

2 hours ago, Josheb said:

Yep. I completely agree. So let's reason this through using scripture, shall we? 

WHEN did Jesus the sower of wheat sow the wheat into the world? My Bible tells me it was at Genesis 1:26 and 2:7. Remember Matthew 13 is happening before Jesus died on the cross.

No. It began at Pentecost with the gift of the Spirit. Only those with the permanent indwelling Spirit are born of God. Jesus said the Spirit "shall be in" His disciples (John 14:17). Paul said,

To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: (Col 1:27)

And Paul said, that our bodies are the members of Christ.

Jesus also said, concerning the seed that fell into stony places: "Yet hath he not root in himself"

Now, these are the words of the Creator of the universe. What do roots do? They supply water and nutrients to plants. Water is symbolic of the Spirit. Indeed, as Jesus said,

John 7:37-39:

³⁷ In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

³⁸ He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

³⁹ (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

The Spirit is like a root, constantly supplying water. John 4:13-14:

¹³ Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:

¹⁴ But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Notice again, Jesus says the well of water is "in him"--that is, in the one who has been born again.

 

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Both the wheat and the tares are already existing. Jesus is not teaching about what happens after Calvary.

Incorrect. John said Jesus had to be glorified before the Spirit was given, in the text I just cited.

 

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Nothing in the entire narrative of Matthew would lead us to believe Jesus was saying his disciples were still tares and he was going to make them wheat only after he died and resurrection. That interpretation would have to take numerous gross liberties with the text. 

Jesus sowed the wheat of the kingdom at creation. 

Look at something Paul wrote about the resurrection:

1 Corinthians 15:42-50 NAS
"So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;  it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;  it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.  So also it is written, 'The first man, Adam, became a living soul.' The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.  However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.  The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.  As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly.  Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.  Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable."

1 Corinthians 15:42-50 KJV
"So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:  It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:  It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.  And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.  Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.  The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.  As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.  And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."

The Greek "phthora," which more literally means decay. It is one of the two main terms used to describe what happens to the unregenerate on the other side of the grave. Here' it is being assigned to everyone (!) on this side of the grave!!! The particular conjugation in this example is one implying potentiality, not an already realized state of existence. In other words, we understand from Genesis 1:31 that Gd made man good and sinless but he also made us able to sin and become sinful. He made us corruptIBLE, not already corruptED. He made humanity perishABLE, not already perishED. He made us decayABLE, not already decayED. It was through the disobedience of one man that sin and death entered the world (Rom. 5), not God. God "sowed" us into the world god (Gen. 1:31), unashamed (Gen. 2:25), and sinless (Rom. 5:12) but at Genesis 3:7 that all changed as a consequence of the tare-sower's tempting and one man's disobedience. 

The truths of the parable begin in Eden, not that sunny day teaching at the seashore, and not some yet-to-happen event where the teacher dies a torturous bloody unjust death on the cross. 

But you said it, and you're correct, that Adam was able to be corrupted, and was in fact corrupted. But we've been born again of incorruptible seed. Not just uncorrupted, but incorruptible -- that is, not able to be corrupted.

1 Peter 1:23:

²³ Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

In this parable, the wheat doesn't become corrupted and turn into a tare. Jesus sowed this good seed, which is incorruptible. That is, essentially, once you are saved, you will always stay saved. You cannot unsave yourself, even if you so desired. Jesus put away all your sins for good. But before Calvary, men could fall from grace. David prayed in Psalm 51 for God not to take the Holy Spirit from him. But that will never happen to us, no matter what we do, as we're born again of incorruptible seed, by the Word of God (that is, Jesus Christ).

 

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Jesus sowed good seed in the field of the world. He did that at creation. Later, an enemy, satan, came along an sowed tares. Jesus' servants/slaves asked if they should eradicate the tares immediately upon discovery but Jesus said, No, we'll wait until the harvest." The slaves asked if the weeds should not be immediately removed but Jesus said, "No, their fate and the fate of the wheat have already been decided." 

1 Peter 1:20-21
"For he was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you  who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God." 

Adjust thinking, doctrine, and practice accordingly . 

 

Like I said, at Pentecost, for the reasons I've stated.

2 hours ago, Josheb said:

Do you understand that the parable of Matthew 13 was spoken within the context of Matthew 12:24-37? Do you also understand none of the other verses you referenced were known by his Matthew 13 audience at the time of that teaching? You are not properly exegeting the text; you're reading that Matthew 13 text through the mind and knowledge of a 21st century Christian who has access to a whole pile of information that hadn't yet been articulated to the Matthew 13 disciples. 

The text is every bit as relevant today. And why? Because as you laid out very truly, God is sovereign. So the text speaks to us today. For example, idolatry is shown in the Old Testament as men literally worshiping the works of their hands. In the New Testament, we are to interpret this as men who are trying to gain acceptance by God from the works of their own hands.

 

Edited October 25, 2020 by Don19

[Don19]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

How about we read scripture as written and not interpret it differently without warrant? 

Which has absolutely nothing to do with what I posted. The wheat and the tares already existed at the time Jesus was teaching in Matthew 13.

Not so. The Holy Spirit baptizes us into the Body of Christ, which makes us children of the kingdom (1 Cor 12:13). The wheat and tares describes conditions from the Pentecost until the end of the world. I said a lot in my previous post to support this as well.

 

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

That teaching and the conditions existing at that time are pre-Calvary. It has nothing to do with Jesus' later glorification. The John 7 text you cited specifically and explicitly states "the last day" (singular). That would be harvest time, not Pentecost. The last day singular, not the last days plural. 

What are you talking about?! John 7:37-39 was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost, and continues to be fulfilled every time someone new is baptized into the Body of Christ. (I'm not talking about water baptism, but Holy Spirit baptism.)

 

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

Is the body of Christ not the kingdom of God? Are there not weeds in the New Testament churches?

See, this is the very objection I raised to begin with! It's the reason I responded to you in the first place. The Body of Christ is not "the New Testament churches," but the particular members who have been washed in the blood of the Lamb. We--ourselves, our very flesh and blood--are the Body of Christ, because Christ dwells in us. Christ in us, the hope of glory, as Paul says. And and he says:

Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. (1 Cor 12:27)

So, no, tares in the visible churches are not "the Body of Christ." They are not "in" the kingdom of God (in the narrower sense), although the kingdom of God has come upon them (as it's come upon all).

Jesus said a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand (Matthew 12:24-37). If there were tares "in" the kingdom, then it would be divided against itself!

Christ is in us, as we are in Him. We are joined to Him in love in an indissoluble union.

And again Eph 4:4-6:

⁴ There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

⁵ One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

⁶ One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

 

One Body, one Spirit - even as by one Spirit we have all been baptized into one Body (1 Cor 12:13) - again, I reiterate this is Spirit baptism.

Likewise, Paul says:

Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. (1 Cor 15:24)

So when Jesus returns, He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God. That's not the tares, but the wheat only. The kingdom is now, and it includes only born again believers. Nothing that defiles is in Christ's kingdom!

 

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

The kingdom of God looks much different now than it did at Matthew 13, as a consequence of Calvary and Pentecost. I have no disagreement with you about the impact of those two events but they have little to do with the wheat/tares parable and absolutely nothing to do with the conditions of the kingdom at that time.

The disciples were not in the kingdom yet. Jesus told them they first had to be converted as become as little children (Matthew 18:3). So like I said, the parable deals with the coming of the kingdom at Pentecost and continuing until the end of the world.

 

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

By the time the harvest comes things will be different but at that time there were both weeds and wheat in the kingdom and it remains that way today. That won't change until "harvest" time. The earth is God's and God's alone. Heaven is His throne and the earth is His footstool. the kingdom of God isn't some magical kingdom like Disneyland. It's a messy place where we wrestle not with flesh and blood but the powers and principalities and "rulers" and "authorities" of darkness and forces of evil in the heavenly places while..... we also wrestle with flesh and blood - first our own, and then those of the weeds who would seek to make us fruitless right here, right now, in God's kingdom. 

If we're in the kingdom, then we're partakers of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:3-4). That's right here, right now! That's because we've received the earnest of the Spirit, and we've been born of God. So we know that we're His now and forever. Jesus has purged our consciences of sins (Heb 10:2), so we can serve God without condemnation, without fear (Luke 1:74, 1 John 4:18). We've entered rest, and keep the Sabbath spiritually, which is a perpetual covenant between God and His people (Exodus 31:12-17). No more working to keep or prove our justification before God; those who practice such things are still in the flesh, practicing sin since all our righteousness is as filthy rags. But as the Apostle John wrote, the one who is born of God does not commit sin, for His seed remains in him: and he "cannot sin" because he's born of God. That is, not that we don't still sin, but we don't fall short of the glory of God (to sin is to miss the mark), because Jesus is our good works and our righteousness. The life we live now in the flesh we live by the faith of the Son of God. Jesus is perfect, and so we are perfect because we are as He is in the world. As Jesus said, be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

[Your closest friendnt]

On 10/23/2020 at 10:11 PM, TheBlade said:

You know never really gave this any thought before. I am still wondering why I had this dream not to long ago. In the dream was this huge plant and He said "you have to let them grow together". That was it. I didn't ask anything in this dream nor was I praying about anything like this. In the dream I knew the plant was of God and the weed was not of God. But you have to let them grow together. Thinking now.. being God seeing this... and Him saying "you have to let them grow together".  Just wanted to share..

Mathew 14:

²⁴ Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. ²⁵ But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. ²⁶ When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.

²⁷ “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’

²⁸ “‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.

“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’

²⁹ “‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. ³⁰ Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”

       *******

Jesus here he begins with: 

The kingdom of God is like a man who shows good seed in his field...

Jesus that time he was speaking to the Israelites the people of God at that time...those people were his field...he came to them before the Cross....

He was not speaking to Idolaters, he was speaking to those who believe in God and and were under the Law of Moses and they had the hope of the Messiah the Christ of God...

Jesus was showing the word of God to them about the coming of the Kingdom of God through him...

So the people believe in him when they showed the miraculous signs he did and what he was saying to them...

And many gladly they received his words...

But after that they heard things to the contrary...or they thought things to question things about Jesus...

"Like: if he is really from God then why he is healing on the Sabbath*.

Here Jesus makes the distinction that even though they had questioning thoughts or others had tried to persuade them not to believe in him or things about him...

Jesus is telling us that they remained faithful to him...

This also applies to each and everyone of us who have believed in him and we are his fields. 

Jesus is telling us that we are not shield and isolated or protected to hear his words only...

He is telling us as we continue to be his own...the enemy will also plant some weeds in us in our ignorance...

Without us knowing that what we have accepted is a weed , we have weeds or distortion, or misunderstandings or some confusion and we do not see it as that...and even thought Jesus does know it, he does not trying violanting to remove the weeds or distortions we have attach our selves in ignorance...

For a Catholic it would be the worship of Mary and the Saints along with Jesus Christ...

Or for someone else it may be the fear, the panic to be baptized with water...to be saved...

Jesus will let them do that and what else can he do...if immediately try himself or sends someone else...they will see him as the enemy who tries to lead them astray as in the book of revelations Jesus is telling us that he is trying  to correct some distortions in the churches...trying to deal with their weeds in their ignorance...but they had view their "weeds " as being from God and they did not let Jesus correct them they show as their enemy who tries to lead them ashtray him as the refused to open the door and answer the knocking on the door of their heart...Instant they secured their door not to let him in...they perceived him as the enemy who seek to deceive them, as the enemy with his weeds..

But the Jesus said in their ignorance they had some weeds...they only thought they had what the desired...things from God...Jesus cautions us to be careful...

In due time Jesus will try to make them come around and see their weeds...and they will say "the truth has set me free"..but many will pass away still with some weeds...but we are saved with weeds anyway so it does not matter...if not on earth, in Heaven our confusion will be clear...

As in the case of this believer who finally said : I was saved before the water baptism...I do not have to say to others be baptized to be saved...but as a saved person be baptized if you want or your family or church want their members to be baptized...to live and study the faith...not to live like strait "dogs", as some believers do...weeds also can be some sins not done in ignorance but with an excuse or justification as one dedicated believer assaulted an abortionist doctor some time ago...

Jesus is telling we may love him to much and love the Gospel and our neighbor but that does not mean we do not have weeds and are always correct in the things of understanding the riches in Jesus Christ and his love for us.  

Jesus is telling us with weeds or without weeds we are his no matter what...

And he is giving us instructions not to Judge to quickly and run to correct..but rather through discussion to communicate...to one another..

 

Edited October 26, 2020 by Your closest friendnt

[Starise]

I believe the tares are referencing lost individuals. 

I'm attempting to condense these views here.

One was a discrepancy about the "Kingdom". What it is, where it is, and how it is. In a few comments I think we might have been referencing creation instead. That pretty much covers everything. I don't believe that's the kingdom in this instance. 

" They Kingdom Come, Thy Will Be done"

It presently isn't completely in any case or there would be no need for the above prayer. In order for the kingdom to fully come all of the tares must be removed and anything else evil that's hampering  the "kingdom". There are a myriad of references to the kingdom in the Bible, for instance, " The kingdom of God is like a mustard seed". The kingdom is also referenced as leaven in another parable. In both of those cases a little thing becomes a big thing.

I think it is clear we wouldn't be looking for something trying to identify it if were were in fact, presently in it. JMOP. WE are part of a coming kingdom if Christian. We will one day be a part of that in totality. Presently we live down here in the cesspool. Sorry. I'm trying to be nice. Hmmmmm. Plants seem to grow pretty good in poo.

 

 

[FrankIeCip]

Not trying to jump in here. I think Don was referring to Luke 17 20And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. 
Sorry just thinking. Thanks. 

[FrankIeCip]

And yes the completion or fullness of the kingdom is still coming. I don’t believe it’s complete yet or I don’t think we would still be here. The long suffering of our Lord is salvation. I think there are still some of God’s elect not yet born again. (Baptized by the Holy Spirit)

Edited October 26, 2020 by FrankIeCip