The Christian Views Of music

[Starise]

I expect there will probably be different opinions on this. To like lots of different kinds of music and also being a Christian makes things complicated sometimes. Maybe some of this has to do with my background being raised in a strict Baptist church that only sang hymns all the time. In later years I was both on praise teams and directed praise teams in churches.

God has changed my musical tastes a lot over the years. Music I once though was wonderful now isn't so much because I can see "under the hood" so to speak and I guess I don't appreciate it as much. Sort of how the Wizard is finally seen behind the curtain operating a big machine when it was once thought to be magic. I still hearken back to my rock years as my last song will attest to. I like those guitars sometimes. I also love Bach and the whole baroque time period. Since I've heard hymns played badly I have to make them more musical to enjoy them. I've made a lot of music that wasn't decidedly Christian music. I didn't set out to make "christianless" music, it was just what came to me at the time.

The longer I'm a part time musician, the more I realize I don't know about music.

There are the ways some Christians seem to see music and I wonder how much of that I should own. It makes everything confusing sometimes for a musician, at least for me.

In one church I was in the pastor is preaching a sermon and mentions  Lucifer was the head musician and then looks over at me. It's as if they think we are into something evil or bad since Lucifer is a musician. Gotta watch those musicians. We are evil.

 There are those who think they know what the line between evil and good Christian music is. I guess if I wasn't a Christian it would be so much easier. I feel as if my music must pass some kind of a test and I'm not sure what the test is sometimes.

I do cater music to congregations because if they can't worship, what's the point? They must relate to the music well in order to worship.

In one church where I led music, I always felt as if music was an tacked on unpleasantry for the pastor. Something the people liked that had to be done. If it had been up to him we probably wouldn't have had music. I never seen it as music. I seen it as worship and therefore worship was given a low priority in the church. Musicians who worked and toiled long hours for make music for church are never paid in some churches. Many of them feel it's sinful to take money even though they spend hours and hours working on the programs. Is this the priority you want your church to have for worship? Music on the cheap? What would Jesus think about that?

Then there are the ego wars between pastors and between different worship leaders. Pastors trying to micro manage music when it isn't their gift. Worship leaders who won't "let go" of their "ministry" to let someone else truly lead and help out. There are the devas who want on the team for attention and vain glory. Once burned me to no end. They only want lead parts on Christmas and Easter.

Looking out on  a few in a congregation sometimes who are chewing gum, talking, dozing off and /or are otherwise distracted. Why are you here? I would imagine some pastors feel the same way. Especially when the snoring starts lol

Thoughts? Experiences?

 

Edited November 29, 2020 by Starise

[furrychristian]

I grew up in a very strict home with music. My church also only did hymns--or "Southern Gospel", on occasion. We had some Southern gospel musicians come and basically have a concert at church, once in a great while.
My mother was staunchly against modern music in general. She pushed classical music very much, and had us learn about the different composers. I don't think classical music is bad, but....a lot of it just isn't for me. (Though I do enjoy piano music.) It doesn't grip my attention. As a result, I didn't have that much of a relationship with music--outside of taking piano lessons for five years--until I was 17 or 18. That's when I began to listen to Christian contemporary music and such, and I discovered bands like Casting Crowns and others that typically play on the Christian radio.....then I began to discover ones like Skillet and Red. I'm fond of hard rock and had a bit of a metal phase. But I like most styles of music. I listen to secular music fairly often, too.....much of it, these days, is from anime, or it's Vocaloid songs.

I still like Casting Crowns. Their theology seems solid. Disciple, too, has solid theology, and their songs are pretty rich with scripture. They go much harder than Casting Crowns though, lol.

[Starise]

28 minutes ago, furrychristian said:

I grew up in a very strict home with music. My church also only did hymns--or "Southern Gospel", on occasion. We had some Southern gospel musicians come and basically have a concert at church, once in a great while.

My mother was a strict legalist Christian. My father was often in bars after work and very very seldom attended church. My mother was musical and many in her family were artistic in different ways. I have one famous poet in my family lineage, so I guess some of it rubbed off on me. Probably not much lol. None on my dad's side were musicians. My mother was committed to the same kind of church as you went to. Women wore dresses at all times. Not just in church. Man all had short hair. It was expected for men to wear ties on Sunday morning. If you didn't you were looked down on. Music was strictly hymns. Only a piano in church. Southern gospel was the only accepted music outside of the church.

I never could understand this? Raising a child in such a strict religious environment when they either don't understand it or are not on board with it can do more harm than good. I remember the pastor's son was on drugs and very wild. Marylin Manson's parents sent him to a Christian school and he hated every minute of it. Would he have been different minus the legalism?

When I was beginning to listen to different kinds of music in my teens, I always thought the rock musicians were far more talented than the musicians in church. To me back then, I thought modern attempts at Christian music were poor attempts at mimicing them.

Today Christian music has come a long way, however much of the output is controlled by larger interests that are not Christian. In some cases the music that's coming out of large churches is coming from an unstable theological base. There's still good recent Christian music to be found, but I find I need to do a lot of sorting out to find it.

[Henry_iain]

26 minutes ago, Starise said:

I expect there will probably be different opinions on this. To like lots of different kinds of music and also being a Christian makes things complicated sometimes. Maybe some of this has to do with my background being raised in a strict Baptist church that only sang hymns all the time. In later years I was both on praise teams and directed praise teams in churches.

God has changed my musical tastes a lot over the years. Music I once though was wonderful now isn't so much because I can see "under the hood" so to speak and I guess I don't appreciate it as much. Sort of how the Wizard is finally seen behind the curtain operating a big machine when it was once thought to be magic. I still hearken back to my rock years as my last song will attest to. I like those guitars sometimes. I also love Bach and the whole baroque time period. Since I've heard hymns played badly I have to make them more musical to enjoy them. I've made a lot of music that wasn't decidedly Christian music. I didn't set out to make "christianless" music, it was just what came to me at the time.

The longer I'm a part time musician, the more I realize I don't know about music.

There are the ways some Christians seem to see music and I wonder how much of that I should own. It makes everything confusing sometimes for a musician, at least for me.

In one church I was in the pastor is preaching a sermon and mentions  Lucifer was the head musician and then looks over at me. It's as if they think we are into something evil or bad since Lucifer is a musician. Gotta watch those musicians. We are evil.

 There are those who think they know what the line between evil and good Christian music is. I guess if I wasn't a Christian it would be so much easier. I feel as if my music must pass some kind of a test and I'm not sure what the test is sometimes.

I do cater music to congregations because if they can't worship, what's the point? They must relate to the music well in order to worship.

In one church where I led music, I always felt as if music was an tacked on unpleasantry for the pastor. Something the people liked that had to be done. If it had been up to him we probably wouldn't have had music. I never seen it as music. I seen it as worship and therefore worship was given a low priority in the church. Musicians who worked and toiled long hours for make music for church are never paid in some churches. Many of them feel it's sinful to take money even though they spend hours and hours working on the programs. Is this the priority you want your church to have for worship? Music on the cheap? What would Jesus think about that?

Then there are the ego wars between pastors and between different worship leaders. Pastors trying to micro manage music when it isn't their gift. Worship leaders who won't "let go" of their "ministry" to let someone else truly lead and help out. There are the devas who want on the team for attention and vain glory. Once burned me to no end. They only want lead parts on Christmas and Easter.

Looking out on  a few in a congregation sometimes who are chewing gum, talking, dozing off and /or are otherwise distracted. Why are you here? I would imagine some pastors feel the same way. Especially when the snoring starts lol

Thoughts? Experiences?

 

There is so much to say here. I love music. I was trained in music and although I am rusty I can read music. I have a disability that impairs my hand-eye coordination, which is sad because this prevented me from getting far with instruments. 

I grew up with a very broad exposure to music and so I am quite fond of a wide variety, both secular and Christian. My mother,  who I tend to relate to better, tends to like classical music but also enjoys 60s music. My dad (a Dutch Reformed theologian) likes pop/rock music far more than classical music and is a big Bob Dylan fan.  As I row older, I realise my musical tastes have become more refined. I have had he privilege of attending a lot of live performances, mostly in the classical music genre. Also, I am from Africa, and African music has its own sounds and rhythms. There is so much music I love, that I find myself unable pinpoint a favourite.  I do tend to enjoy the big 3 composers (Bach, Beethoven, Mozart). Everything else

Because music is such a subjective matter and yet so powerful, I think it is impossible to make strict rules about it and it is up to each person to choose what they consider worth listening to. 

Musically speaking I find that Christian Music to be surprisingly good. There are many exceptions of course, but compared to secular music it tends to be less plastic. 

I like Switchfoot and I find Jon Forman's take on music very interesting and refreshing. 

I hear worship leaders say "it's not about the music" and then proceed to insist on excellence. I think what they mean is that music should be the tool we use in a gathering of believers which should help us focus our attention on God, and as such it needs to be an affective tool. But the tool itself should never become the man focus.  

These are just some thoughts that popped up. I might come back to this when I had more time to think.

[Starise]

9 minutes ago, rhomphaeam said:

 

Music & It's Power

 

How is it possible for a man to desire the end of life, then by music, change his mind? Or how is it possible to lose a child and then be comforted by music? How is it possible for music to have such effect so as to cause one to consider that which beforetime was beyond their reasonable mind? 

 

If the music of men were no more than sound, it would have little effect. But all music is conducted by men. Men determine its form, press it into meaning and present it with a will of determination.

 

To the mind music is thought itself and to the heart it is the spoken word. Music passes into his mind, and communes with the inner heart of emotions. Music enters into that part where others cannot go to rob and steal and so music becomes his keeper, the holder of the key.

 

Music can tear down and it can build up. It can provoke irrational offence and it can provoke unreasonable exhilaration. Music is a comforter and an inspiration. It brings to life hidden and invisible attributes which others cannot see, and so music speaks to the very man, without fear of contradiction.

 

The man who is comforted will speak of music in hushed tones, so that he covets its presence. In his moment of foolishness he flatters and applauds its conductor, and holds its adept in awe.

 

At the end of its effect, music provokes violence, and demands his attention. Of itself it is but sound, yet the man becomes the object of its passion, and his very form becomes its visibility and proof.

 

For the natural man the absence of music, in the silence of need, is the knowing and the remembering of pain. It is the doubt and the fear. It is the fear and the anger. It is the certainty of rejection and the balm of conviction; that in the end, for the laden soul, it is better to weep and to cry aloud than to look to heaven without the help of music. Without music his cries and his tears go unanswered, heaven remains silent, and the man casts himself down upon the ground and expires by his own hand.

 

When music comes to his ear, and by his ear to his heart, and by his heart to his understanding mind, he is all at once comprehended that he is not alone, and so the man lays hold of music, his friend and his comforter, his peace.

 

Now music is become his deliverer. He may look to heaven from whence music has its place on the sides of the north, and he may also look to its sound. By its power and influence and without God, he is comforted. Now music is become his god.

 

Those who labour in music, desiring to speak, do so at their own peril. If men do not comprehend its power it is because they have more comprehended their own part in it, and their own benefit. If men do comprehend its power then they may use it to command attention to themselves, and in that they take the place of God. This was the sin of Lucifer before his fall into rebellion. He usurped God in his own heart by reason of his trade, and drew attention away from God to himself. Blinded by the wonder of such adoration he drew aside a multitude, until he said in his heart, ‘I will be as God‘. He was cast down and destroyed in the midst of fire, and those that were with him also. He is become the prince of the power of the air, the very air through which music passes to the ear, and he is a master musician above all other created beings. He comprehends how to direct the man by music, and by music he knows how to comprehend the man who falls under its influence.

 

Music is of the soul, and it is the soul that Satan desires to influence and imprison. It is an imprisonment by the same self serving vanity that music affects when it is not directed to the one from Whom it came, and for the purpose for which it was given. Like the very air we breath it is invisible, and like the very air we breath it may also be full of poison. It can inspire obedience, but it cannot make obedient the man. It can inspire rebellion, but it cannot make a man a rebel. It is an invisible chord that binds the heart, and imprisons the man, or else sets him free into chaos and destruction, if by music he is informed, and without God.

 

Without God music is a terror, and by God it is an instrument of worship, and an expression of eternal life. Music has its own purpose, and its purpose is laid hold by the instrument of the ear. Music can by all intention be found to have directed a man only to himself, and to his own needs, and to his own comfort, apart from God Who gave it.

Very well penned words. Thanks for sharing them. I would address you by name but am slightly dyslexic and I fear I won't spell it correctly or I'll have to re write it several times until I get it right..

Musicians are often lifted up way above where they belong. Satan was no different in thinking he was worthy when the motive should have been to do it all for the glory of God. Music while a gift in different degrees to different people is also similar to a trade in that it must be worked at to get better at it.  It has been said that music is ingrained in humanity. In business now music is also seen as a commodity. This is true even of some Christian music.

It doesn't help that in some cultures when a person does something different that draws attention to themselves it is seen as evil for all must be the same and nothing should "stick out". For this reason many musicians are reluctant to share their God given abilities in those cultures. It's a shame really because God has gifted many men to be able to make music. Not all of them do it the same or in a way seen a culturally relevant or acceptable. 

[Starise]

11 minutes ago, Henry_iain said:

There is so much music I love, that I find myself unable pinpoint a favourite.  I do tend to enjoy the big 3 composers (Bach, Beethoven, Mozart). Everything else

This is pretty much me too henry. I like all of it but the overtly satanic music.

12 minutes ago, Henry_iain said:

I hear worship leaders say "it's not about the music" and then proceed to insist on excellence.

It's not about the music but if you're leading the music, it's also about the music  Make sense? No. Let me put it this way. It's not about the music until it's about the music. IOW if it sounds ok great. If there's a problem, it's about the music.

[Henry_iain]

26 minutes ago, Starise said:

Not all of them do it the same or in a way seen a culturally relevant or acceptable. 

I think one of the best illustration of this is found in South Africa. There are a group of mixed race people in South Africa called Colourds. They are generally a mix of, African, Europian, Asian indian and Bushman to varying degrees. Many of them come from lower income groups and speak only Afrikaans, or very broken English (which they mainly pick up from television).  They are friendly, gentle people and very generous (I am obviously speaking in generalisations, but this is just my experience) Now, this group is not usually sophisticated and are often completely unaware of what other people would find acceptable or not. They developed their own musical styles and they are brilliant at it. 

Now, they tend to relate well to rap. It seems to them to be made for them by people who are often much like them. Also hip-hop, r&b, and sometimes choral music. Now, I did outreach programs with youth from these areas, and often I found it doesn't help me to force my idea of Christian music on them. They just can't understand it. So instead you play them Lecrae or Mary Mary. Because these people sing about things relevant to them in a style they find attractive. I am not a rap fan in particular but I have gained quite a liking for Lecrae because I have learned to look beyond my own assumptions about what is acceptable. 

Edited November 29, 2020 by Henry_iain

[GandalfTheWise]

Some nice thoughts expressed in this thread, many of which reflect my own feelings.   I've been playing guitar, keyboards, and bass for a good 40 years now.  I've been a worship leader and filled a variety of roles at times.  I've done this in a variety of churches and have a few battle stories to tell myself.  

My own musical tastes are rather eclectic.  I just run in streaks where I enjoy listening to a lot of different things for a time.  At one point, I was one of those who threw out every non-Christian album I had and was an "expert" in hidden messages in popular music.  I usually don't link bomb, but I'm on the board of a low power FM Christian station that's been streaming online for about 15 years now.  It is one of the most eclectic combinations of Christian songs I've heard with a wide range of artists and genres.  The fellow running it had the goal that no song would be played more than 3 times per day, no song would repeat at the same time per day, so there are a few hundred songs in the rotation.  It's at 97x.fm (and has a streaming option).  

The only other point I'd add is this.  Much of the criticism directed at modern Christian music misses one important thing.  We are seeing this generation of music as it is being created.  What we see of past generations are the gems that have lasted. We don't see the myriads of forgotten songs.  For example, many of us know a handful of Isaac Watt's hymns.  Come Ye that Love the Lord, O God our Help in Ages Past,  When I Survey the Wondrous Cross, Alas and Did My Savior Bleed, and Joy to the World.   Most of his 750 or so songs are long forgotten.  Charles Wesley is known for the lyrics for many hymns including, And Can it be that I should Gain, Christ the Lord is Risen Today,  Come Thou Long Expected Jesus, Hark the Herald Angels Sing, and O For a Thousand Tongues to Sing.  We only know a handful of 6000 that he published.  A number of years ago going through my grandma's stuff, I found a number of old song books including one of Fanny Crosby.  She wrote about 8000 hymns and gospel songs in her life including Blessed Assurance, To God Be the Glory, and Praise Him, Praise Him.  I went through that song book and frankly didn't find any I liked.

If Isaac Watts, Charles Wesley, and Fanny Crosby are running at a rate where perhaps 1% of their songs are considered musical treasures in the church, I think we should cut modern Christian composers a bit of slack with regard to producing such music.   If we fail to encourage them, our generation is merely guaranteeing that should the Lord tarry, we won't have many musical treasures to contribute to the next generations of Christians.

 

[Starise]

6 minutes ago, Henry_iain said:

I think one of the best illustration of this is maybe one is found in South Africa. There are a group of mixed race people in South Africa called Colourds. They are generally a mix of, African, Europian, Asian indian and Bushman. Many of them come from lower income groups and speak only Afrikaans, or very broken English (which they mainly pick up from television).  They are friendly, gentle people and very generous (I am obviously speaking in generalisations, but this is just my experience) Now, this group is not sophisticated and are often completely unaware of what other people would find acceptable or not. They developed their own musical styles and they are brilliant at it. 

Now, they tend to relate well to rap. It seems to them to be made for them by people who are often much like them. Also hop-hop, r&b, and sometimes choral music. Now, I did outreach programs with youth from these areas, and often I found it doesn't help me to force my idea of Christian music on them. They just can't understand it. So instead you play them Lecrae or Mary Mary. Because these people sing about things relevant to them in a style they find attractive. I am not a rap fan in particular but I have gained quite a liking for Lecrae because I have learned to look beyond my own assumptions about what is acceptable. 

I find all of this very interesting. They joke and say white men can't jump...or for those who can't keep a rhythm, we can't walk and chew gum at the same time. This is also a generality and make of it what you will. No ill intended. They also joke about drummers here. How do you know the stage isn't level? The drool is running out one side of the drummer's mouth.

In general the Germans tend to be a a very unemotional ( on the outside) and highly structured intelligent. This reflects in much of their music. They make some of the best software recording programs. Their music tends to be anal and never "cuts loose". I would probably also include Scandinavians of all sorts in that classification. Next are the Asians, tendency to be very anal retentive but very GOOD at classical music. Asian parents start their children young and push them hard to achieve perfection on instruments. They tend to be mainly into classical music as a whole and are some of the very best. Not generally rhythm centric though. From anything I've ever seen the black races command anything rhythmic. It seems to be naturally ingrained in them. If I had a band and wanted a drummer and a bass player, you can't do much better. White men only pretend to have rhythm lol. Actually there good white bass players and drummers too. The dark skinned races also seem to have a propensity towards what I'll call a good communal sense of music...it's sometimes called call and answer. The Indians have some very unusual modal music( to western ears) as do the Middle eastern races. Often using very crude instruments. Indians are also often gifted with high IQs. Many are into computer programming and circuit design which can also apply to their music making processes. Now that I'm in big trouble ( because I attempted to classify, I'll cut this off here lol).

[Starise]

8 minutes ago, GandalfTheWise said:

Some nice thoughts expressed in this thread, many of which reflect my own feelings.   I've been playing guitar, keyboards, and bass for a good 40 years now.  I've been a worship leader and filled a variety of roles at times.  I've done this in a variety of churches and have a few battle stories to tell myself.  

My own musical tastes are rather eclectic.  I just run in streaks where I enjoy listening to a lot of different things for a time.  At one point, I was one of those who threw out every non-Christian album I had and was an "expert" in hidden messages in popular music.  I usually don't link bomb, but I'm on the board of a low power FM Christian station that's been streaming online for about 15 years now.  It is one of the most eclectic combinations of Christian songs I've heard with a wide range of artists and genres.  The fellow running it had the goal that no song would be played more than 3 times per day, no song would repeat at the same time per day, so there are a few hundred songs in the rotation.  It's at 97x.fm (and has a streaming option).  

The only other point I'd add is this.  Much of the criticism directed at modern Christian music misses one important thing.  We are seeing this generation of music as it is being created.  What we see of past generations are the gems that have lasted. We don't see the myriads of forgotten songs.  For example, many of us know a handful of Isaac Watt's hymns.  Come Ye that Love the Lord, O God our Help in Ages Past,  When I Survey the Wondrous Cross, Alas and Did My Savior Bleed, and Joy to the World.   Most of his 750 or so songs are long forgotten.  Charles Wesley is known for the lyrics for many hymns including, And Can it be that I should Gain, Christ the Lord is Risen Today,  Come Thou Long Expected Jesus, Hark the Herald Angels Sing, and O For a Thousand Tongues to Sing.  We only know a handful of 6000 that he published.  A number of years ago going through my grandma's stuff, I found a number of old song books including one of Fanny Crosby.  She wrote about 8000 hymns and gospel songs in her life including Blessed Assurance, To God Be the Glory, and Praise Him, Praise Him.  I went through that song book and frankly didn't find any I liked.

If Isaac Watts, Charles Wesley, and Fanny Crosby are running at a rate where perhaps 1% of their songs are considered musical treasures in the church, I think we should cut modern Christian composers a bit of slack with regard to producing such music.   If we fail to encourage them, our generation is merely guaranteeing that should the Lord tarry, we won't have many musical treasures to contribute to the next generations of Christians.

 

I'm sure we could trade story or tow there

Just a few short comments here on this. You are certainly right we should be encouraging the next generations making music. I hope I didn't come off a too tough on them. I just think we need to be careful because Satan has also crept into the Christian music realm. 

Not sure why this is, but music seems to be somewhat taking a generational approach in terms of tunes selection. I am mentoring a young man who played with me on the team as a drummer and later moved to guitars and keys. He doesn't know a lot about music theory yet but he is picking things up fast. He is now leading the team where I once led. I would pull a "new" tune maybe once a month and we would go over it as an offertory the first week. My "new tunes" might be few years old but they are played on Christian radio still. My reasoning was they had been out and some people would know them already. This young man is pulling a new tune every week  and these are hot off the press new tunes. Eventually he's going to run out of tunes lol. I guess my brain can't keep up with that. I think he's starting to swing back the other direction more now and realize that not everyone in the service is 22 years old. I mean, I was playing some tunes written before he was born.

One thing that bothers me is playing a song with no life in it. I watched our stream today and the tempos were slow and there was no "jive" happening. Make that tune do something. Sing it like you mean it. I remember starting off too slow and then the whole band starts off a few clicks slow. Too late then. Sometimes I think the mechanical feeling to some of it is in trying to be too perfect playing it. To me sheet music is a rough guesstimate of the way it actually should sound. It's the lifeless version. Classically trained players lock up if they get a rest wrong. I believe at east 50% of it is feel. I compare it to reading a book, some people read with feeling. Other people simply read the book. Like-a-robot.