Hopefully Posted December 18, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 52 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 1,323 Content Per Day: 1.05 Reputation: 1,465 Days Won: 5 Joined: 12/07/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted December 18, 2020 @Frits God bless you too ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frits Posted December 18, 2020 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 409 Content Per Day: 0.32 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/03/2020 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/25/1961 Share Posted December 18, 2020 13 hours ago, Michael37 said: Yes, there is a fleshly, sinful nature in all of us. Both Scripture and human experience tell us it is so. The words "fleshly" and "carnal" are synonymous. Hi Michael Brother, if our flesh or our body represents sin, how is it possible that the Lord Jesus also had such a body as we have? "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh" (Rom.8:3) 'Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.' (Luk.24:39) And what about the apostles who received the Holy Spirit of God in their fleshly body on the day of Pentecost? And ditto the many believers afterwards? Peter confirms this and writes in Acts.10:28 "God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean." The Lord Jesus spoke to His followers: 'Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.' (Joh.15:3) This also concerns their body of flesh. No flesh is naturally bad. But if the Holy Spirit is not allowed to use the body as a dwelling in honor of God, but instead demons (read: powers of sin) dwell in a man, his flesh is used for sinful acts! The Gospel of Jesus Christ provides for the redemption of demons. (Mat.12: 28) 13 hours ago, Michael37 said: Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Therefore, it's necessary for every person to be born again. Problem solved. 13 hours ago, Michael37 said: Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Please have a look at the detailed explanation of Rom 7 that I gave Hopefully. 13 hours ago, Michael37 said: 1Co 3:1-3 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. (2) I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto you were not able to bear it, neither yet now are you able. (3) For you are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are you not carnal, and walk as men? Paul makes a statement here about the Christians in Corinth. They were unspiritual "carnal" Christians. This concerns them and does not apply to Christians in general, of course also not to Paul himself. 13 hours ago, Michael37 said: Gal 5:16-17 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. (17) For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that you cannot do the things that you would. Another explanation of the importance of becoming spiritual people. This says nothing about a generally sinful nature of unconverted sinful people as well as of Christians being baptized with the Holy Spirit! Paul advises to "walk in the Spirit." You absolutely cannot do that with a sinful nature. So Paul assumes here that the Galatians could rule over all sins by 'the Spirit of God'. 13 hours ago, Michael37 said: There are many passages that show how the flesh rises up in Christians, but God's grace is sufficient in all our needs, and we can partake of the divine nature as below: By "flesh" is meant the old unconverted existence in which powers of sin still had free rein. When in his youth sin powers have entered man, they arouse numerous carnal desires. But in prayer you can be 'saved' from those powers of sin through the Lord Jesus, that is what the grace of God is all about. He makes separation. After that, just as with the advice God gave to Cain, it is important to rule over the sin that was 'at the door' and to keep it out! 2 Peter 1: 3-11 The Apostle Peter indicates in his letter that through new birth AND baptism with the Holy Spirit, the Christian has become part of the 'divine nature'. For Christians who have experienced these two related facts of salvation, this stands in the perfect tense. I know from experience that this does not apply to all Christians! This makes them unspiritual carnal people, who cannot fully use the Power of God in their own lives. This group of unbaptized carnal Christians is on the same level as people of the old covenant, who could not rule over sin either but fell into it over and over again. Hence, for their impotent worrying existence, an animal had to be offered as a sacrifice again and again. My answer this time is a bit long, sorry for that! God bless you brother! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael37 Posted December 18, 2020 Group: Servant Followers: 21 Topic Count: 245 Topics Per Day: 0.11 Content Count: 7,044 Content Per Day: 3.28 Reputation: 4,952 Days Won: 2 Joined: 07/05/2018 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/23/1954 Share Posted December 18, 2020 @Frits None of your long post above seemed relevant to my earlier comment, so I'll just add one more thought. What purpose did Paul say his thorn in the flesh served? 2 Cor 12:7 Anyone who thinks Christians are not capable of works of the flesh is seriously deluded. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frits Posted December 19, 2020 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 409 Content Per Day: 0.32 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/03/2020 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/25/1961 Share Posted December 19, 2020 (edited) 11 hours ago, Michael37 said: @Frits None of your long post above seemed relevant to my earlier comment, so I'll just add one more thought. What purpose did Paul say his thorn in the flesh served? 2 Cor 12:7 Anyone who thinks Christians are not capable of works of the flesh is seriously deluded. Hi Michael, I do think that Christians are capable of works of the flesh, but those are the unspiritual Christians, the 'little children' in the faith. Like the people in Corinth were. (1Cor.3: 1) Probably very sincere children of God, but they have no knowledge of the new birth and the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which gives them power over all the host of the devil. (Luke 10:19) Not only has the mature Christian been “awakened” spiritually, but God's Spirit has helped him up, and now he sees to it that he does not stumble. But Michael if you write about my previous post "None of above seemed relevant", then I fear that you too have no experience of the baptism of God's Spirit. Is that right? However, if you pray to the Lord Jesus, He will certainly give you the Holy Spirit if you ask for it. God bless you in that. Edited December 19, 2020 by Frits Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted December 19, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,903 Content Per Day: 2.42 Reputation: 2,782 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted December 19, 2020 (edited) 18 hours ago, Frits said: Hi Michael, I do think that Christians are capable of works of the flesh, but those are the unspiritual Christians, the 'little children' in the faith. Like the people in Corinth were. (1Cor.3: 1) Probably very sincere children of God, but they have no knowledge of the new birth and the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which gives them power over all the host of the devil. (Luke 10:19) Not only has the mature Christian been “awakened” spiritually, but God's Spirit has helped him up, and now he sees to it that he does not stumble. But Michael if you write about my previous post "None of above seemed relevant", then I fear that you too have no experience of the baptism of God's Spirit. Is that right? However, if you pray to the Lord Jesus, He will certainly give you the Holy Spirit if you ask for it. God bless you in that. There two things that do not sit well. First is the most terrible one to call those who are born from above unbelievers. When Paul is referring to the children of the flesh he is pointing to Nicodemus before the Cross. Holy people under the righteousness of the Law, but not born from above. A reference to the children of the Nation of God within the Old Covenant. Who were and who with the New Covenant are not, unless they believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. To those who are born from above, I hope you understand who they are, they are those to whom the Gospel was preach and believed. There is a lot of instruction to follow for those who have believed and are born from above. So we may find people, of good caracter, righteous people, people with faith in God and without faith in Jesus Christ, who unless they believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ before they die they would be lost... And the opposite is truth, we have people whom we may think that it is better for the reputation of the faith, that they would rather keep it to themselves that they are believers in Jesus Christ, but who inspite of their wrongdoings are Saved because of their faith in Jesus Christ. This is part of what Jesus Christ has accomplished and it is a part of his Glory and Power that he cannot loose anyone who believes in him. To Judge those who believe in him (born from above) and to say things to the contrary because we cannot be proud of what they doings, is contrary to the Gospel... To claim that they have to prove themselves when they do not have to, is not sitting well with Jesus Christ to do this , to torment his children of this group like that, telling them that if they do not prove that they have believe with a drastic change of their daily routine, that they are not really born from above. To say that Jesus Christ is love, it should include that any one who believes in him can love him for what he did for us before bringing in all the rest about our selves. But only focusing on what Jesus Christ accomplish with his death on the Cross. Someone should be able to say thank you to the Heavenly Father and thank you to Jesus Christ. Next the part of your post and the way you speak about the brother is to me prosecutory not expected when we exercise our participation privileged to post in the discussion Forum. Why did you come with this because he posted what Paul was trying to tell us, how difficult it was for him, to stay humble, and this came from Jesus Christ who knew Paul better than Paul knew himself. In any event and in case I have miscoprehent Jesus Christ is blessing us with the fellowship of the Holy Spirit or his according the way we ask. Jesus Christ anoints his people and their ministry according as they ask. He rewards the desires of their hearts without judging. He gives first and corrects later. Edited December 20, 2020 by Your closest friendnt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael37 Posted December 20, 2020 Group: Servant Followers: 21 Topic Count: 245 Topics Per Day: 0.11 Content Count: 7,044 Content Per Day: 3.28 Reputation: 4,952 Days Won: 2 Joined: 07/05/2018 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/23/1954 Share Posted December 20, 2020 21 hours ago, Frits said: But Michael if you write about my previous post "None of above seemed relevant", then I fear that you too have no experience of the baptism of God's Spirit. Is that right? However, if you pray to the Lord Jesus, He will certainly give you the Holy Spirit if you ask for it. You are making a wrong assumption, I am indeed baptised in the Holy Spirit, but there is a whole domain of judgmental critics who stir up ignorant arguments on the subject so I steer clear of them and their contentions. This thread is not about Docetism which seems to be the irrelevant tangent you began to set off on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frits Posted December 20, 2020 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 409 Content Per Day: 0.32 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/03/2020 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/25/1961 Share Posted December 20, 2020 12 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said: There two things that do not sit well. First is the most terrible one to call those who are born from above unbelievers. When Paul is referring to the children of the flesh he is pointing to Nicodemus before the Cross. Holy people under the righteousness of the Law, but not born from above. A reference to the children of the Nation of God within the Old Covenant. Who were and who with the New Covenant are not, unless they believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. To those who are born from above, I hope you understand who they are, they are those to whom the Gospel was preach and believed. There is a lot of instruction to follow for those who have believed and are born from above. So we may find people, of good caracter, righteous people, people with faith in God and without faith in Jesus Christ, who unless they believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ before they die they would be lost... And the opposite is truth, we have people whom we may think that it is better for the reputation of the faith, that they would rather keep it to themselves that they are believers in Jesus Christ, but who inspite of their wrongdoings are Saved because of their faith in Jesus Christ. This is part of what Jesus Christ has accomplished and it is a part of his Glory and Power that he cannot loose anyone who believes in him. To Judge those who believe in him (born from above) and to say things to the contrary because we cannot be proud of what they doings, is contrary to the Gospel... To claim that they have to prove themselves when they do not have to, is not sitting well with Jesus Christ to do this , to torment his children of this group like that, telling them that if they do not prove that they have believe with a drastic change of their daily routine, that they are not really born from above. To say that Jesus Christ is love, it should include that any one who believes in him can love him for what he did for us before bringing in all the rest about our selves. But only focusing on what Jesus Christ accomplish with his death on the Cross. Someone should be able to say thank you to the Heavenly Father and thank you to Jesus Christ. Next the part of your post and the way you speak about the brother is to me prosecutory not expected when we exercise our participation privileged to post in the discussion Forum. Why did you come with this because he posted what Paul was trying to tell us, how difficult it was for him, to stay humble, and this came from Jesus Christ who knew Paul better than Paul knew himself. In any event and in case I have miscoprehent Jesus Christ is blessing us with the fellowship of the Holy Spirit or his according the way we ask. Jesus Christ anoints his people and their ministry according as they ask. He rewards the desires of their hearts without judging. He gives first and corrects later. @Your closest friendnt Have I called people who are born again "unbelievers"?? You put the horse behind the cart, brother. The law has never justified anyone. If you want to quote Paul: "But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident." (Gal.3:11) Then you use a contradiction. After all, you cannot 'have faith in God' and NOT believe in the Lord Jesus! If a person really follows the Lord Jesus, he is modest and has no bad reputation. The apostle warns us against a bad course of life. Your argument is contradictory, because if a person was genuinely born again and obeys the Lord Jesus, he can be happy with his daily walk because it is for the glory of God. 'Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away' (John 15:2a) Numerous requests are made to the Lord Jesus. But please stop kidding yourself, in the end it sounds to those who didn't really want a holy life: 'And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity!' (Mat.7:23) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frits Posted December 20, 2020 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 409 Content Per Day: 0.32 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/03/2020 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/25/1961 Share Posted December 20, 2020 13 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said: There two things that do not sit well. First is the most terrible one to call those who are born from above unbelievers. When Paul is referring to the children of the flesh he is pointing to Nicodemus before the Cross. Holy people under the righteousness of the Law, but not born from above. A reference to the children of the Nation of God within the Old Covenant. Who were and who with the New Covenant are not, unless they believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. To those who are born from above, I hope you understand who they are, they are those to whom the Gospel was preach and believed. There is a lot of instruction to follow for those who have believed and are born from above. So we may find people, of good caracter, righteous people, people with faith in God and without faith in Jesus Christ, who unless they believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ before they die they would be lost... And the opposite is truth, we have people whom we may think that it is better for the reputation of the faith, that they would rather keep it to themselves that they are believers in Jesus Christ, but who inspite of their wrongdoings are Saved because of their faith in Jesus Christ. This is part of what Jesus Christ has accomplished and it is a part of his Glory and Power that he cannot loose anyone who believes in him. To Judge those who believe in him (born from above) and to say things to the contrary because we cannot be proud of what they doings, is contrary to the Gospel... To claim that they have to prove themselves when they do not have to, is not sitting well with Jesus Christ to do this , to torment his children of this group like that, telling them that if they do not prove that they have believe with a drastic change of their daily routine, that they are not really born from above. To say that Jesus Christ is love, it should include that any one who believes in him can love him for what he did for us before bringing in all the rest about our selves. But only focusing on what Jesus Christ accomplish with his death on the Cross. Someone should be able to say thank you to the Heavenly Father and thank you to Jesus Christ. Next the part of your post and the way you speak about the brother is to me prosecutory not expected when we exercise our participation privileged to post in the discussion Forum. Why did you come with this because he posted what Paul was trying to tell us, how difficult it was for him, to stay humble, and this came from Jesus Christ who knew Paul better than Paul knew himself. In any event and in case I have miscoprehent Jesus Christ is blessing us with the fellowship of the Holy Spirit or his according the way we ask. Jesus Christ anoints his people and their ministry according as they ask. He rewards the desires of their hearts without judging. He gives first and corrects later. @Your closest friendnt Summarized brother, your entire plea was focused on the fact that if someone has accepted the Lord Jesus, he should still be allowed to stay with his old life. That of course is private! He can keep grumbling and arguing, he can keep drinking, watch a sex movie now and then, he can keep smoking, a white lie is no problem, etc.etc. Because after all, he accepted the Lord Jesus. Do you realize, my closest friend, how hypocritical your story threatens to become? God bless you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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