Frits

Hi Ycf, Thank you for your nice post, with which you start to discuss the content of the Foundation of Heb.6:1-2. That was indeed the sole purpose of my OP. It's not accidental that repentance from "dead works" in Heb.6:1 precedes faith toward God. As long as a person does not yet believe in God, he automatically works in the service of sin and the reward is known! (Rm.6:23) Without faith toward God, man, individually or collectively, is unable to receive God's righteousness. For all the work that a man does without faith toward God has brought him to death! (Rm.14:23, Eph.2:1) The great division in his life, the great reversal comes with his conversion to God. Then he comes out of the shadow of death and rises in the true Light of God. (Jh.5:24, Col.1:13, 1Pt.2:9) As a human being, however, you can never be in these two situations at the same time: you are either in death, or you live for God. The Lord Jesus, as far as flesh is concerned, emerged from the Jewish people. (Rm.9:5) It was clear to the Jews that the "Gentiles" who did not know the law were cursed. (Jh.7:49) But it gets interesting when we start looking at #2 faith toward God. Most Jews, despite their law, despite their temple, despite their circumcision, and despite their entire religious paradigm, were (and are!) also under the curse. (Jh.3:36) Of course because those Jews (fortunately there was a remnant who did believe in Him!), did not want to believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is God! The # 2 point from Hebrews 6:1 "faith toward God" can therefore only mean: faith toward Jesus Christ, He is God. So whoever talks about 'God', but does not mention the Lord Jesus is wrong! Repentance to God is repentance to Jesus Christ. Faith toward God is faith toward Jesus Christ. This was the terrible sin of the Jewish religion, not wanting to accept Jesus Christ as God! Judaism, the Jewish roots, the Jewish doctrine of duty, and all their feigned piety, they wanted to hold on to it while they murdered Jesus the Son of God! However, that rejection of the Lord Jesus was used by the Most High to save us from dead, hallelujah! Frits

Hello Sister Clancy, Thank you for your uplifting and sincere post. I am glad Sister Clancy that you, as a new creation of God, have also spoken in new tongues. Speaking in tongues serves a special purpose, which is that the Holy Spirit may speak in you and through you (and in me, in all of us), and that thereby yourselves be strengthened in the inner man. (1Cor.14:4, Eph.3:16) So please continue to speak in the (to humans unintelligible) language of the Holy Spirit, to the glory and honor of the Lord Jesus Christ. The various gifts of the Holy Spirit (1Cor.12 - charismata) are given to us by God, each one according to our grace. (Rm.12:6) In addition, speaking in tongues, in contrast to prophesying, is not giving to some believers but to all believers, all who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. Indeed, it is not a definition that anyone who does not speak in new tongues is not a believer! Because only God and man himself know what is in man. (1Cor.2:11) But he who in the Name of the Lord Jesus does speak in new tongues, it turned out to God that this person believed the Lord Jesus and acted accordingly. The casting out of demons as well as speaking in new tongues in the Name of Jesus Christ, has been given by Him to all His believers. Mr.16:17 KJV And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues May the Lord Jesus bless you in doing so. Frits

Hello DeighAnn, And now to summarize, what do you think about the fact the Lord Jesus did use the language of the Holy Spirit, He did cast out demons and He did laid hands on sick people, and you don't? Joh 14:12 KJV Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also Are you clearly recognizable as a Christian if none of those signs follow you the Lord Jesus has mentioned, by that the believers will be recognizable? Mar 16:17 KJV And these signs shall follow them that believe; IN MY NAME shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues Please understand me well dear sister, this applies not only to you but also to me and to all Christians, including those on Worthy. Connected in the love of the Lord Jesus Christ.

@DeighAnn A very friendly hello to you too, Sister Ann! What I notice about the foundation Jesus Christ in your life is, first of all, my deep gratitude to Him who brought us from the dead into His life by forgiving our sins and that He is our foundation both in your life and in my life. Hallelujah, praise the Lord Jesus! His foundation in our lives should above all be skillfully laid. (1Cor.3:10) Unfortunately, there are many precious children of God, dear Christians, in which the foundation of the faith has been incompletely laid! Because of this, certain parts of God's foundation are not or hardly used, which inhibits the work and blessing of the Lord Jesus! The city that lies on a mountain cannot be hidden, and if we follow the Lord Jesus we will have to do the healing work that the Lord Jesus did. (Mt.5:14, Jh.14:12) The Lord Jesus cast out demons, He laid His hands on sick people and He raised the dead! Moreover, at the end of His earthly life the Lord Jesus Christ indicated the recognisability of His followers: Mar 16:17 KJV And these signs shall follow them that believe; IN MY NAME shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues "Because THAT TONGUE, is a tongue UNDERSTOOD BY ALL WHO HEAR IT." As for the understanding of the divided tongues from Acts 2, v9-11 states that people of different nationalities were present in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost: Han 2:9 KJV Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, Han 2:10 KJV Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Han 2:11 KJV Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. They heard the believers speak in their tongues the wonderful works of God. But do you think it was because the apostles spoke so "intelligibly" in new tongues, or because the grace of the Lord Jesus gave these devout people the ability to understand them? Could the Parthians speak to the Jews of Pamphylia outside of their Hebrew (and Greek) language? Could the Arab Jews understand what was said by the Asians or the Elamites? The apostles spoke the new language of the Holy Spirit and that language was understood by the strangers, because God could open their ears on the spot and give them to understand. The apostles didn't even have to understand it, but the strangers understood what was spoken by God. Each of these men heard the same words, but they were onderstood in their own language. Thus the devout were addressed by God. But there was another a group present, they were the mockers! These mockers also heard the same words of God, but they understood nothing at all! (v13) God could give the devout people the ability to understand Him, those who mock God received nothing! But God had said through His prophet, that He would be glorified by men of foreign language: Jes 28:11 KJV For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. "Please take note of what new means NEW 2537 kainos new, fresh, unused, novel New in quality (innovation), fresh in development or opportunity because not found exactly like this before." The outpouring of the Holy Spirit into ordinary believing people, Pentecost, was new in history! This had never happened before, for the Spirit of God to dwell in believers who love Him. That was new. So new that a whole series of new things could be named from it. Through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, a new creature has come into being. (2Cor.5:17) For this human being the old sinful existence is over and s/he lives in newness of life, hallelujah! The new man of God, with a new live in the Lord Jesus, with a new righteous identity, and a new language, because God Himself wants to speak in and through her for redemption and for healing. God bless you, sister.

Acts 22:12 KJV And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there, Acts 22:13 KJV Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul,... Acts 22:16 KJV ... why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. God bless.

Hi bro Charlie, Yes the story of the eunuch from Acts 8 is strong support for a continuation of a WB in the NT. But Charlie, how significant do you think the words of the Lord Jesus Himself are? (With apologies if this has already been mentioned.) Mat 3:15 KJV And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. Mat 3:16 KJV And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him Mar 16:16 KJV He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And then this text: Han 22:16 KJV And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. The doctrine of baptisms is part of the foundation of the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, as communicated to us in Hebrews 6:2. God bless.

You write yourself: "Hebrews 6:1-2 is about beginning teachings of Christ." "No, Hebrews 6:1-2 is about leaving those things." The comment is yours, but the first line was yours too! I quoted you by copy / paste, so you are now discussing with yourself! One big contradiction and not credible! Here I have two more quotes from you, in response to my question about Hebr.6:1-2, whether you are submerged in water and lay hands on sick people: "The gospel of Christ re quires repentance from sin and faith in God but it doesn't require baptisms, laying on of hands". "Blessedly, I can answer every single one of those questions in the affirmative." And now you suddenly say that because of your faith you have allowed yourself to be immersed in water? These two statements at the same time, that's not credible! And now you say that because of your faith you also lay hands on sick people, while you first said this is not a fundamental part of the Gospel of the Lord Jesus! Again, these two statements at the same time, that's not credible!

"So the answer to the question asked is, "No, I do not believe the list is exhaustive because there are other things that might well be included in the list but were not mentioned by the author of Hebrews." "Yes?" It is clear to me that with this suggestive question you want to undermine the importance and apostolic authority of Heb.6:1-2! These verses are included in the infallible Word of God for a clear reason. It is not for you or anyone else to discuss this series of 6 fundamental points from God's word. You may elaborate on every fundamental point # 1 to # 6, that's the purpose of this OP. Not that you would criticize the series by calling it "incomplete" or that some points would not be part of the Gospel of Jesus Christ! "..if we're going to discuss these two verses and the six items of the incomplete list provided by the authors for illustrative purposes then let's do so using the whole word of God as the Greek informs us, not as the KJV informs us." Here you do two things, on the one hand you indicate that you want to discuss the 6 pillars of the foundation, while the intention is that we elaborate on the content, and you do not do that once! And then again name the points "incomplete" and "illustrative"! While the series must be accepted as sufficient and workable, even if it were only 3, 4 or 5 points, even then! In doing so, you disdainfully call the points "illustrative", as they are all an essential part of the Foundation of faith in Jesus Christ. That is very bad! With that you not only undermine the authority of God's Word (the Hebrew letter!), but above all that you attack the Lord Jesus Christ with it, because He is that Foundation!! 1Co 3:11 KJV For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. "What the author of Hebrews actually said is to move on from the "beginning" teachings about Christ. And he did not actually mention the word "gospel." Another denial of the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ! For in verse 1 the writer had clearly stated: 'Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ' (Hebr.6:1) The doctrine of Christ concerns the whole of His Gospel, it's synonymous with it. Without the teachings of Jesus Christ, there is no Foundation and without His teachings, there is no Gospel! Every building starts with a foundation, and then continues with the work of building up to the glory in total completion. Hence, this OP also begins with the Foundation of God's House. In order to be able to move on to the perfect it is important to 'see' that the Foundation, Jesus Christ, has been correctly laid in us. Paul also indicates this. (1Cor.3:10) "Hebrews 6:1-2 is about beginning teachings of Christ." So if I ask you some questions about the Foundation, this one teaching of Christ, you can always provide substantive answers? 1. Have you repented of dead works, and which ones? 2. Is the Lord Jesus God and what shows your faith in Him? 3. Were you baptized by immersion in water? Have you been baptized with the Holy Ghost, do you speak in tongues audibly? 4. Do you lay your hands on sick people for healing? 5. Have you been raised from the dead through the Words of the Lord Jesus? (Jh.5:24) 6. Is there an eternal judgment and what does that mean? If 1 or more of the above questions is answered with no, there is something wrong with your foundation! "The six matters list in the verses is not an exhaustive list." We are not going to pointlessly question the list, but we are going to apply it in terms of content, so that God's Power can rest on His Foundation in our lives. "We can have maturity and some degree of fullness in Christ on this side of the grave." I don't know their number, maybe there will be a million or ten million or a hundred million, but there will be Christians who will reach total perfection on this side of the grave. That's when they're going to be changed by the Power of the Holy Ghost in a moment. (1Cor.15:52) "The teachings of Jesus are not exactly the same thing as the gospel of Christ". This is a fierce attack on the being of the Lord Jesus, which is going to have serious consequences! (Mt.21:44) "The gospel of Christ re quires repentance from sin and faith in God but it doesn't require baptisms, laying on of hands". By eliminating baptisms from the Gospel of Jesus Christ, as well as the laying on of hands, the teachings of God are affected! With that His Foundation is affected and with that the Lord Jesus Himself is affected !! (read 1Cor.3:11) "and some of the items in the list aren't apostolic teaching or require for the gospel, why have those verses been asserted as the gospel?" Again an attack on the teaching of the apostles! The Hebrew letter has apostolic authority. For that reason it has received an important position in God's Word. The writer has spread the 'sound doctrine' with his letter; of repentance from dead works, of faith in God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of the laying on of hands, of the resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. All this entirely commissioned and in imitation of his Master the Lord Jesus: Mar 16:16 KJV 'He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mar 16:17 KJV And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; Mar 16:18 KJV They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.' "Please do tell us." Finally, I wonder why you use the term "us" instead of "me". Do you think you should speak for others? I wouldn't be surprised, because I know how you feel about yourself: "I happen to be a very intelligent, well-educated, very practiced and experienced believer" But does this say anything about how humbly you serve the Lord Jesus Christ, or does this say anything about your own pride? May the Lord Jesus bless you.

"How are we going to discuss the op's thesis: "I want to offer the possibility say something about some of these 6 points in any order, because they belong inseparably together and together form our foundation Jesus Christ," when the "6 points" or "6 subtopics" are admittedly incomplete? The writer of the Hebrew letter has given us 6 fundamentally points about the Gospel of Jesus Christ. He could also have named 4 or 5 then still jet those points belong inseparably together, but he didn't do that. Moreover, it says nothing about how complete the list is, he left it at 6, we can accept that. "How are we going to have that conversation working from a poor translation?" Until now we have always worked with the translations known to us and that's fine, no reason to complain but a lot of reason to thank the Lord Jesus for providing it. Praise His holy Name. "How are we going to have that conversation with someone imposing eschatology on the matter?" We are allowed to talk to each other, we don't have to do anything. The "someone" you are talking about here is me, Frits, a person with a name. But not I am the subject of conversation, but the subject is Hebrews 6:1-2. Shall we stick to that? But because the House of God forms one big whole, the parts of the Foundation have to do directly with aspects of God's House (the Church) that only come to their full revelation at the last trumpet. Then the Church of Jesus Christ has come to perfection (G5046) and the resurrection is completed after soul, spirit and body. So yes, the resurrection of the dead (# 5) begins when the spiritually dead human hears and accepts the words of the Lord Jesus, and is completed when this believing person appears on earth with his heavenly body clothed. Efe 5:14 KJV Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light. The body of the believers on earth at that moment is "swallowed up" by their heavenly body. (1Cor.15:54, 2Cor.5:4) Hence, I have quoted this essential and compelling subject of the resurrection of the dead from Heb.6:2, because our beginning is precisely mentioned in God's Foundation.

You're right Riverwalker, "must" is too much like an obligation. For when the believer finds himself in a situation where speaking in tongues is required, these words of the Lord Jesus apply: Luk 12:12 KJV For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say. God bless.

"Dead works" are works of iniquity that are done in the service of the devil and for which only one wages is paid, namely death! (Rm.6:23) "Dead works" are works that, although sometimes even done for religious reasons, keep man in death. (Jh.16:2, Act 22:20) "Dead works" are works that arise from the communion with evil spirits, the "fruit" of which is death. (Rm.6:21, Jam.1:15) Jac 1:15 KJV Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

This being the case, I am not an apostle and I do not criticize their work or God's Word the Bible. But I can imagine speaking in tongues would also be on the list. Because this is the most basic gift of the Holy Ghost that the Christian must use. All the more because the Lord Jesus also mentions speaking in tongues and the laying on of hands together in Mark 16.

No Christian knows the day of his or her decease, and that is irrelevant. But the already deceased Christians now reside with the Lord Jesus, while we (and others after us) are still living on the earth. But at the last trumpet Christians on earth will be changed. (1Cor.15:51) They will then receive the heavenly perfection in spirit, soul and body. Which means that the Lord Jesus considers them worthy to receive this great grace, while they in their earthly existence. That they ever sinned does not matter, because God Himself has forgiven and put away their sins. Psa 103:12 KJV As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us. (The peculiar thing about this is that even if one were to try to travel east to retrieve the forgiven sins, the east is still as far away on arrival as it was at the start of the journey.) So those are Christians whose body never goes into the grave. But I cannot say whether I belong to that category, because I do not know when that moment will be. (v52)

Hi Sister SONshine, Thank you for your honest and understandable answer. Rm.3:22 is no problem for us, it is after all true. Back in our old existence, like all the unbelievers, we were unrighteous sinners! As for Rm.7:15-25, I think Paul is writing his autobiography here. Because in verse 5 Paul had already indicated that this existence was a thing of the past. Verse 5 "For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death." To show his understanding and to show that as a Pharisee he understands exactly how the Jewish people grapple with sin because of the law, he identifies with them and his writing style remains even after verse 6 in the present tense. This happens more often. He also names himself with the others in 1Th.4:15. While these words apply to a different time, Paul includes himself. He indicates in several of his letters, it's certainly possible for God to attain His ultimate goal through the Holy Spirit in us: That we will become Sons of God (this ofcourse also concerns the sisters). We shall have the fullness in Christ Jesus. (e.g. 2Cor.13:11, Ph.2:15, 2Tm.3:17, Hebr.5:14) God bless.

Try to realize the meaning of your last sentence. First God created the heavens, then the earth. (Gen.1:1) So beings and situations already existed in the heavens, which were subsequently expressed with the earth and the inhabitants as 'shadow' thereof. (Hebrews 8:5)