Walking in the Spirit

[SwordMaster]

2 hours ago, Paul James said:

A good response!

 

Thank you. I agreed with almost everything you stated in that response, particularly when it comes to the general statement that probably only 20% of those who call themselves Christians, truly are Christians. This has been a worry to me for years, but the only thing one can do is pray that God will raise up called preachers and teachers who have His anointing and gifting to accurately read, understand, and teach His truth...and today most behind pulpits are false pastors (men who were not called or gifted by God to fill that position).

There was one thing, however, that I see no room for in Scripture, and that is the idea that people are baptized in the Spirit without the evidence of speaking in tongues (IF I understood you correctly, but I might not have).

In every account in Acts where a person is identified as being baptized by the Spirit, the initial evidence of speaking in tongues is there. I know that certain sects teach that this is not so, yet again the Scriptural evidence stands clear.

Personally, I know people who were baptized in the Spirit, spoke in tongues in that moment, but have never spoken in tongues again...for 20 years or more. And I know of people who have never been baptized in the Spirit who have their spiritual prayer language (Jude 1:20 among others). Yet people in both groups would manifest their particular spiritual gifts according to I Cor. 12.

Blessings

..

[SwordMaster]

2 hours ago, Paul James said:

I don't see how anyone can be converted to Christ before the coming of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost  The Scripture says that believers are baptised into the body of Christ by the Holy Spirit.

 

I just wanted to answer in parts so there is no confusion (on either my end or yours!). So, just to get it out of the way, this question precludes the 11 disciples who walked with Jesus for 3 years...and quite possible the 120 in the upper room because even though they were not apostles, they were part of those who followed Jesus and most likely supported His ministry. So...

First thing to look at is the passage you reference:

 

1 Corinthians 12:13
For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--Jews or Greeks, slaves or free--and all were made to drink of one Spirit.
 

This is one of the few places in the NT where "baptism" is being used metaphorically, not literally. Here Paul is talking about the indwelling Spirit which every believer receives the moment they receive salvation, the word here is not literally being baptized into the body of Christ. This is confirmed in that Paul then says the same thing in the last clause only in different words...that "all (in the body) were made to drink of one Spirit." The "drink" is also not literal, but figurative of partaking in the Holy Spirit via Him dwelling within them.

As for the first sentence, remember that the Holy Spirit was in the world before Christ came, which the OT gives plenty of evidence for. That and the fact that Scripture tells us that the Spirit draws people to Christ...and we have the 120 and numerous episodes in the Gospels where people came to Christ in sincerity, obviously the Spirit was at work.

The Day of Pentecost regarding the outpouring of the Spirit, did not signal that NOW the Spirit was in the world - the outpouring of the Spirit only signified that the specific working of the Spirit in believers was now available - that specifically being the "Baptism in the Spirit."

 

2 hours ago, Paul James said:

But if the Holy Spirit was not present while Christ was still in the world, how can believers be baptised into the body of Christ if the Holy Spirit does it. 

 

A good question...Strictly Scripturally speaking, no one was baptized into the Body of Christ except for the 11 apostles when they recevied the Spirit and were saved...

 

John 20:22
And when Jesus had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.

 

At that moment was when the disciples were born again, the first members of the body of Christ, and then they received the baptism in the Spirit on Pentecost. Remember that the Holy Spirit is the agent of regeneration (a fancy word meaning born from God), and He only indwells those whom He regenerates because their sins have been forgiven and cleansed.

 

2 hours ago, Paul James said:

And, how could there be a body of Christ until the coming of the Holy Spirit caused it to be birthed?

 

Another excellent question that is also explained by John 20:22...the church was born the moment the 11 received the indwelling Spirit. Pentecost was not the birth of the church, that was only the bomb that exploded that enlarged the church by 3000 people on that day, and another 5000 the next day. Jesus isn't the church, believers are...so the first believers who were born again (regenerated) by the Holy Spirit constituted the birth of the church - and that was the 11 when they received the indwelling Holy Spirit.

 

2 hours ago, Paul James said:

Does this mean that the baptism with the Holy Spirit is the same as the Holy Spirit baptising believers into the body of Christ?

 

No, it is not the same thing. Every believer, the moment they promise to walk in obedience to God in the baptismal confession, and then receive baptism into Christ, immediately have their sins forgiven according to Scripture (Acts 2:38, among others), and receive the gift of the indwelling Spirit. This is "the Holy Spirit baptizing believers into the body of Christ." The baptism of the Spirit is for a completely different thing...

 

Acts 1:8
But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."

 

The whole purpose of the baptism in the Spirit is to endow saved believers with the power to become witnesses for Christ, and as we see throughout Acts the baptized believer can also receive many subsequent fillings where they become bold, fearless, and speak the Word of God while staring death in the face. The purpose of the indwelling Spirit is completely different from the baptism in the Spirit.

 

2 hours ago, Paul James said:

Does this mean that the baptism with the Holy Spirit is the same as the Holy Spirit baptising believers into the body of Christ?  It seems that the events of the Day of Pentecostal, Cornelius' household and the Ephesian disciples show that this is what happened.

 

Not when we take the details of Scripture into consideration and examine them fully.

 

2 hours ago, Paul James said:

I think that the general confusion about these things is because every denomination teaches different interpretations of how the Holy Spirit is involved in the conversion and empowering of believers. 

 

I agree. And another part of the confusion is that denominations made their doctrinal statements without FULLY examining the Scriptures according to a complete Biblical hermeneutic. Add to that the fact that once a person has been indoctrinated into one particular bias, it is practically an act of God to get that person to even look at any other viewpoint...because no one likes to be told they are wrong.

That is the difference between a bias-defender and a truth-seeker...the latter is willing to lay down his bias and listen to someone if the other person can give Biblical evidence, where the former doesn't care what you show them, they will go to their grave holding to their bias even when it can be demonstrated wrong.

 

Blessings!

..

[SwordMaster]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

This might seem like a simple, easily answered question at first but it's not... There is a valid mysticism to scripture and the Christian life but being spiritual is not hocus pocus, fantastical, magic that cannot be explained. 

 

A very well thought-out response, that is very informative...but I read it three times and didn't see where you suggested an answer. Could you nub it down a little for me!

Thanks...and thanks for the input!

Blessings!

..

[Paul James]

52 minutes ago, SwordMaster said:

 

Thank you. I agreed with almost everything you stated in that response, particularly when it comes to the general statement that probably only 20% of those who call themselves Christians, truly are Christians. This has been a worry to me for years, but the only thing one can do is pray that God will raise up called preachers and teachers who have His anointing and gifting to accurately read, understand, and teach His truth...and today most behind pulpits are false pastors (men who were not called or gifted by God to fill that position).

There was one thing, however, that I see no room for in Scripture, and that is the idea that people are baptized in the Spirit without the evidence of speaking in tongues (IF I understood you correctly, but I might not have).

In every account in Acts where a person is identified as being baptized by the Spirit, the initial evidence of speaking in tongues is there. I know that certain sects teach that this is not so, yet again the Scriptural evidence stands clear.

Personally, I know people who were baptized in the Spirit, spoke in tongues in that moment, but have never spoken in tongues again...for 20 years or more. And I know of people who have never been baptized in the Spirit who have their spiritual prayer language (Jude 1:20 among others). Yet people in both groups would manifest their particular spiritual gifts according to I Cor. 12.

Blessings

..

It is quite true that the initial utterance of tongues happens when a person is baptised with the Spirit, but does not again speak in tongues until he or she receives the gift of tongues to be able to speak at will.  This is the view of the early 20th Century Pentecostals, which I concur with.

I think we have to accept that what was lost during and after the 4th Century when the established church departed from the Holy Spirit and the reality of the supernatural ministry and gifts of the Holy Spirit went into decline and the keys to it were lost.

When the Reformation started, the most important doctrine that was generally restored to the true church was Justification by faith.   That was the first step for genuine believers from the counterfeit fraudulent established church.  Luther was no theologian, but it was thought that he did speak in tongues - although modern Lutherans might deny that now.  Calvin was the one who compiled a systematic theology from the Reformation.  His view of the gifts of the Spirit in his 1 Corinthians commentary was that they declined through misuse.  He didn't have the practical knowledge to be able to find a way to restore them to the church.

We have to remember that after the dark ages when the church was steeped in paganism, false doctrine, and non-Biblical tradition, restoration of true doctrine had to be progressive because even justification by faith was a radical teaching in the 16th Century.   There is just so much that can be taught at one time.   I believe that God understood that and because we are saved by His grace through faith, God accepted that during that time because that was all the light they had.

Then in the 17th Century during the Puritan revivals in England, holiness became important - that if a person professed Christianity, his life had to show it.  This is where Alleine's teaching on true conversion became relevant - that being just a church member was not enough.  One had to have a new heart and spirit and only the Holy Spirit could do that, and for Him to do it, the person had to mean business with God and earnestly seek it.

In the 18th Century in America, most professing Christians were content just to be church members and the quality of personal faith and life was very low.  Through the ministries of Jonathan Edwards and Charles Finney, this brought revival, and the importance of receiving Christ as Saviour.  Finney was the pioneer in the need for a person to make the decision to receive Christ as Saviour, and came under a lot of fire from the Calvinist Presbyterians who believed that one should wait until the Holy Spirit did it.  George Whitefield was the pioneer of mass evangelism.  He was the "Billy Graham" of his time in America.

It was in the 19th Century that the Methodist Holiness movement brought in entire sanctification by faith and they called it the baptism with the Spirit.  This involved a total transformation of heart and spirit which led to full commitment to Christ and separation from the works of the flesh.   During John Wesley's ministry, divine healing occurred, and he had 250 verified healings, including that of his horse.  Into the 19th Century, itinerate Methodist Holiness preachers had people healed of different illness.  Guy Bevington was a famous example, and he worked around the Cincinnati area.  Maria Wentworth-Etter was another gospel preacher who saw people healed.   She has been termed the mother of Pentecostalism, although there is no evidence that she spoke in tongues.

Tongues occurred at the turn of the 20th Century, as a sovereign act of the Holy Spirit during a Bible study.  By the way, John Wesley encountered a group of people whom he described as "gobbling like geese".  I wonder if these people were speaking in tongues, and Wesley didn't know what it actually was?

Right at the start, it just happened to believers as they prayed and sought God.  Once people realised that this was the gift of tongues as described in the New Testament, they started seeking God for it and having tarrying meetings to wait for the Holy Spirit to give them the gift.   Of course, as with any new move of God, the established churches persecuted the early Pentecostals and threw them out of their churches, accusing them of being possessed of the devil.   It shows that you can't put new wine into old wine skins.

The Pentecostals, adopted the term baptism with the Spirit to describe their experience, which is understandable seeing that many Pentecostals came from the Methodist holiness background where they already believed in it; except now, they saw tongues as the evidence of the baptism with the Spirit.

So, we see the Holy Spirit working to bring the church back to where it was in the First Century where the ministry of the Holy Spirit comes back into church ministry and life.  The slowness of the development has mainly been the resistance of established church groups to accept it.

Justification by Faith was resisted by the established church.

Puritan holiness was resisted by the Reformed churches

Making a personal decision for Christ was resisted by the Calvinist churches.

Divine healing was resisted by the traditional churches of its time.

Entire Sanctification was resisted by many church groups.

The Pentecostal revival was seen as of the devil by Evangelical groups.

The Charismatic movement was resisted by the Pentecostals.

This shows that every effort by the Holy Spirit to restore His ministry in the church has been resisted by religious leaders, and that is why through the centuries, the full truth of the baptism with the Spirit and the gifts was slow in developing.

 

[Riverwalker]

56 minutes ago, SwordMaster said:

1 Corinthians 12:13
For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--Jews or Greeks, slaves or free--and all were made to drink of one Spirit.
 

This is one of the few places in the NT where "baptism" is being used metaphorically, not literally. Here Paul is talking about the indwelling Spirit which every believer receives the moment they receive salvation, the word here is not literally being baptized into the body of Christ. This is confirmed in that Paul then says the same thing in the last clause only in different words...that "all (in the body) were made to drink of one Spirit." The "drink" is also not literal, but figurative of partaking in the Holy Spirit via Him dwelling within them.

 

Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit are not the same thing.

Every believer is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, he makes a home in our heart, we are the temple of the Holy Spirit

2 Corinthians 6:16

And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will dwell in them And walk among them. I will be their God, And they shall be My people.”

Baptism (From the word βαπτίζω or Baptizo Meaning to immerse) of the Holy Spirit is to receive the power and anointing of ministry.  Not every one has this (though they can) and it is not a factor in your salvation

Acts 1:8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

So to walk in the Spirit has more to do with indwelling of the Holy Spirit, than with baptism

[Paul James]

The bottom line to all this is that we need to encourage those open to the Gospel, to make a strong decision for Christ, seek to be fully converted to Him through the work of the Holy Spirit, and to receive the baptism with the Spirit with the complete potential to develop in the ministry and gifts of the Spirit as the believer develops toward maturity in the faith.  Good, sound discipleship of new believers should achieve this and increase the number of them to develop into sound, long-term church members moving into their calling in Christ to do their bit to build up the body of Christ.

[Waggles]

6 hours ago, SwordMaster said:

Thanks for the input, Waggles. But no where in the text you provided does it tell us what "walk by the Spirit" means.

Au contraire but these scriptures in Galatians do precisely instruct us as to walking in the Spirit. All the epistles instruct us unto righteousness and living to serve God and the gospel. 

It is not complicated. 

[Paul James]

2 hours ago, Josheb said:

Not specifically to you, Paul,

The view of the s0th century Pentecostals is not only contrary to the whole of scripture but contrary to 20 centuries of Christian history, 20 centuries of Christian thought, Christian doctrine, and Christian practice. That is 20 centuries. Twenty hundreds of years. 

The repentant thief at Calvary did not speak in tongues. 
There is no record of Paul speaking in tongues at his conversion. 
There is no record of the converts at Antioch speaking in tongues. There is no record of tongues in Iconium, Derbe, Lystra, Pisidia, or Pamphylia. 
There is no record of Lydia or her household speaking in tongues even though all were baptized. 
There is no record the Philippian jailer nor anyone in his household speaking in tongues at conversion. 
There is no record of tongues in the converts at Mars Hill.
In the vast majority of conversions the Spirit accompanies conversion and tongues is not a separate "gift" when it occurs thereof. 

Many different signs and wonders accompanied regeneration at conversion and tongues is the least of the gifts. The views of the 20th century Pentecostals is not and never has been the norm. In other words, You agree with something that is..... abnormal. and it is abnormal both scripturally and historically and it is abnormal historically in thought, doctrine, and practice. In other words, it is abnormal a whole bunch of different ways. 

Now before you go getting all triggered..... 

I speak in tongues. 

 

 

What I am opposing is any equating of the necessity of tongues with walking in the Spirit. Here's the test: When you read this what does the spirit tell you because if it tells you anything other than what the scriptures say (only a few of which have I referenced) then that's not God's Spirit being heard. The indwelling Holy Spirit never contradicts scripture.

   You have made some interesting and challenging points here.   I love posts like this because it makes me think.

Tongues is just one of the tools of the Spirit, in the same way that a jigsaw is just one of the tools in a woodwork shop.

It is not essential for walking in the Spirit, but it sure assists when used correctly.

Tongues is less preferred than prophecy in the church.   In fact, Paul says that prophecy is the best gift.  He says desire the best gifts, especially that you prophesy.

Tongues has its place in the personal private prayer life.   Paul used it often in his own prayer life, "I thank God I speak in tongues more than you all".

Tongues is speaking directly to God and speaks mysteries in the Spirit (1 Corinthians 14:2).

Tongues should only be spoken out in church as a ministry gift and should always be accompanied by interpretation.

Tongues spoken out in church without interpretation, although Paul says that the people are giving thanks well enough, outsiders will think that they are mad, and the speaking is a waste of time, "into the air" because no one can understand what is being spoken and therefore are not edified.

That, for me, is how I see that the use of tongues is consistent with what the Holy Spirit says about it in Scripture.                       

[Waggles]

2 hours ago, Josheb said:

What I am opposing is any equating of the necessity of tongues with walking in the Spirit

Oh how wrong you are. You do greatly err in your use of scripture.

One cannot enter the Kingdom of God without the indwelling Holy Spirit (God making his abode within a true worshipper, thus such disciples become temples of God)

One does not have the Holy Spirit without the God given evidence of speaking (or rather praying) in tongues - a spiritual prayer language of the Holy Spirit (and promised to believers by Jesus himself).

To walk in the Spirit is to walk in accord with the gospel and to become a new creation in Christ Jesus by means of the power and work of the Holy Spirit within a disciple.

All of the above has been confirmed many times when at worship meetings of the church we operate the voice gifts of the Spirit and God talks to His saints - tongues followed by interpretation and up to three gifts of prophecy. 

Edited January 30, 2021 by Waggles

[Justin Adams]

5 minutes ago, Waggles said:

Oh how wrong you are. You do greatly err in your use of scripture.

Says you??  Do you know this person? Have you walked in his shoes? Have you befriended him? Are you quick to make rash assessments before really thinking about what you are saying??

I suggest you take care with what your write. Thousands across the world read these posts. You would not wish to lead any of them astray I am sure. So take care with your words please.