Do We Still Have A Sin Nature

[Peterlag]

44 minutes ago, Starise said:

@Peterlag Look at the entire context of Romans 6. See verses immediately preceding. 

Let's look at the whole chapter-

[Rom 6:1-23 ESV] 1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For one who has died has been set free from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. 13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. 14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. 15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification. 20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

@Peterlag In looking at the entire associated passage we can see several things.

Paul is addressing an entire sequence. He addresses the end result first. What is the end result for all Christians? The eventual permanent release from the old man of sin. All who remain alive on this earth HAVE NOT yet reached this pinnacle of development.

In verse 4 baptism signifies our physical death and rebirth as a new creature. We are dying to the old man and alive to the new man. Unsaved men are spiritually dead permanently. The Christian who receives the Spirit of God has begun a journey that ends in total death and rebirth to a being of a different composition that knows no sin or inclinations to it. Eternal life is more than just living forever, it's a new improved state of being.

As Christians we are to be taking action here on this earth towards our eventual state. We are to look at ourselves and THINK of ourselves as if we are already redeemed and do our best to act accordingly. Here on this earth sin is still a part of who we are and a very real CHOICE. The more we follow the spirit and allow God to change us, the more we are like Christ yet we will have the sinful man as part of us UNTIL WE DIE. We can make the CHOICE to deny the sinful man or deny our sinful nature, or we can go against God's will and follow it. While alive on earth we will always have a CHOICE to either follow the spirit or to sin.

Very much the same as a tamed dog can bite you if you sneak up on him and pull his tail, a Christian can sin. To say we are incapable of sin is denial plain and simple.

To cap it off briefly-

Paul was showing the final eventual state of believers.

Paul was encouraging believers to think and live like the new creations we will eventually be. By doing this we take our eyes off of the old sinful nature and dwell on the things that bring life instead.

 

I know this comes as a complete shock to many of you who have been indoctrinated in the-old-nature-versus-the-new-nature theology. Most Christians have been taught to believe that after salvation, they are still the same at their core, and they live the rest of their lives trying to restrain this old nature. They believe they have two natures. And I also was taught this and believed it for many years thinking Romans 6 was talking about what I would become in the future.

 

[Peterlag]

35 minutes ago, clancy said:

Peter,I would very much like to see those verses, where it specifically states ,that a believer cannot sin...

Romans 6
How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

For he that is dead is freed from sin.

he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin,

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law,

Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

being made free from sin, and become servants to God,

1 John 3&5
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin, for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not.

[Peterlag]

37 minutes ago, Billiards Ball said:

The old man is destroyed, the flesh is at war with the Spirit, requiring refilling of the Spirit/wearing the Eph 6 armor, etc.

I know this comes as a complete shock to many of you who have been indoctrinated in the-old-nature-versus-the-new-nature theology. Most Christians have been taught to believe that after salvation, they are still the same at their core, and they live the rest of their lives trying to restrain this old nature. They believe they have two natures.

Romans 6:2
How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

The Christians of today believe they are alive to sin and it's with much effort, frustration, and failure that they battle this sin nature the rest of their lives. It now seems clear to me that this concept of what the Christians believe today is not what the Scriptures teach.

Romans 6:3
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

We experience a death to our old sin nature once we are baptized into Christ. It’s dead and gone because it does not exist anymore. We become totally new in our spirit when we are born again, and this is how our old nature has been completely changed.

[Guest clancy]

10 minutes ago, Peterlag said:

Romans 6
How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

For he that is dead is freed from sin.

he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin,

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law,

Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

being made free from sin, and become servants to God,

1 John 3&5
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin, for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not.

I must admit, when I first became born again,God had forgiven all of my sins,He saw no sin in me, I too never came to the Father confessing my sins,...I was led to believe by others ,that I must confess my sins to God....as a believer....I don’t believe God led me to confess them, because what am I confessing ,when he has already forgiven my sins?

Edited March 17, 2021 by clancy

[Guest clancy]

God doesn’t see my sin, they are hidden in Christ?

I am a new creation, the day I was saved, I then started walking in the Spirit of truth.....

Edited March 17, 2021 by clancy

[Starise]

11 minutes ago, Peterlag said:

I know this comes as a complete shock to many of you who have been indoctrinated in the-old-nature-versus-the-new-nature theology. Most Christians have been taught to believe that after salvation, they are still the same at their core, and they live the rest of their lives trying to restrain this old nature. They believe they have two natures. And I also was taught this and believed it for many years thinking Romans 6 was talking about what I would become in the future.

 

No what's really a shock to me is how you disregard scripture to make a point that won't float, even in a small mud puddle. If a person REALLY reads and studies the text this is the conclusion. 

Sometimes it's the way something is worded that infers different meanings. You have done it here in the above comment. First you are assuming the struggle is totally up to to us. It isn't . God through the indwelling of the Spirit has potential to make real changes in us. It's up to us to lean on the spirit. 

You have to ignore the Bible and the scriptures posted in order to say we don't still have two natures. No matter how much you would like it to be different. It isn't.

[Hopefully]

“People can be made free from the evil in the world. They can be made free by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But if they go back into those evil things and are controlled by them, then it is worse for them than it was before. Yes, it would be better for them to have never known the right way. That would be better than to know the right way and then to turn away from the holy teaching that was given to them. What they did is like these true sayings: “A dog vomits and goes back to what it threw up.” And, “After a pig is washed, it goes back and rolls in the mud again.””
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭2:20-22‬ ‭
 

[Starise]

6 minutes ago, clancy said:

I must admit, when I first became born again,God had forgiven all of my sins,He saw no sin in me, I too never came to the Father confessing my sins,...I was led to believe by others ,that I must confess my sins to God....as a believer....I don’t believe God led me to confess them, because what am I confessing ,when he has already forgiven my sins?

It is very true sin is all forgiven past, present and future. The confession serves to make an acknowledgment to God that we are sorry when we sin. Since we can still sin we need to come before Him to acknowledge it and confess that it was wrong even though it has been forgiven.

If I treated my wife poorly and said to myself, I know she will forgive me so why should I come to her and acknowledge it? How would that fly?  It's a continual acknowledgment that we knew we were in the wrong and we want to relationally be as close to Christ as we can be.

[Guest clancy]

11 minutes ago, Starise said:

It is very true sin is all forgiven past, present and future. The confession serves to make an acknowledgment to God that we are sorry when we sin. Since we can still sin we need to come before Him to acknowledge it and confess that it was wrong even though it has been forgiven.

If I treated my wife poorly and said to myself, I know she will forgive me so why should I come to her and acknowledge it? How would that fly?  It's a continual acknowledgment that we knew we were in the wrong and we want to relationally be as close to Christ as we can be.

I don’t come to God and say I’m sorry that I sin.

When I lose my temper,I don’t say sorry Father ,for I have sinned.

 

i tell you what I say, I have my own personal relationship with God.

Lord I’ve done it again, I have lost my temper for years, he picks me up then we start over,...I ask him to change me to be more like Jesus...I look to him for change not myself....a couple of yrs ago,I’d had enough...he knows my heart, he took my temper from me....so I never confess sin...or ask forgiveness, that’s already been settled.

 

I ask for change....to make me a better person, to serve Jesus as best as I can....I am very close to God, feel his presence all day everyday....I have his peace and I protect it.

Actually it’s not me protecting it.....it’s God in me protecting my peace and none can take it from me.

This is the closest I have ever felt to God...I know I am walking in his will for my life ,it was a huge struggle, but it was God who got me here....not I!!

Edited March 17, 2021 by clancy

[Guest clancy]

43 minutes ago, Peterlag said:

Romans 6
How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

For he that is dead is freed from sin.

he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin,

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law,

Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

being made free from sin, and become servants to God,

1 John 3&5
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin, for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not.

Thank you for this,Peter, God has actually got the message through to me, from you, he used you, and you were obedient to what he asked of you,...so Praise God for that....it has been a great breakthrough....