Slug1 Posted June 2, 2021 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 104 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 86 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/03/2021 Status: Offline Share Posted June 2, 2021 22 hours ago, David1701 said: I don't know for certain, but he might have meant that Jesus' atonement was sufficient in value to save everyone, if that had been God's intention, even though it is efficient only for the elect; or, he might have been an Amyraldian, which was generally regarded, by Reformed theologians, as somewhat erroneous but not so bad as to be heretical (unlike Arminianism). 22 hours ago, David1701 said: Everyone who believes in Jesus Christ will be saved; but, who will believe? Those whom the Lord chose for salvation, before the foundation of the world; then he gives them repentance and faith, at his appointed time, when he gets the gospel to them. 2 Thess. 2:12-14 (KJV) 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. David1701, When I have parents before me, people who I have no doubt faithfully believe unto Jesus Christ as their Savior/Lord and they inform me that their rebellious unbelieving daughter has aborted her child, they inquire if their lost grandchild was an elect, or if any aborted child is an elect... what do you suggest is the best way to answer them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David1701 Posted June 2, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,731 Content Per Day: 3.52 Reputation: 3,524 Days Won: 12 Joined: 11/27/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted June 2, 2021 1 hour ago, Slug1 said: David1701, When I have parents before me, people who I have no doubt faithfully believe unto Jesus Christ as their Savior/Lord and they inform me that their rebellious unbelieving daughter has aborted her child, they inquire if their lost grandchild was an elect, or if any aborted child is an elect... what do you suggest is the best way to answer them? We cannot go beyond what Scripture states, so there is no way to know. I know that some believe that every child who dies, before the "age of accountability" (an uncertain concept), goes to be with the Lord; but, although I would like to believe this (I had a sister who died at just a few months old), I cannot prove it. We have to trust that all the Lord does is in perfect wisdom and according to his holy, loving, just character and leave the secret things to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slug1 Posted June 2, 2021 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 104 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 86 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/03/2021 Status: Offline Share Posted June 2, 2021 17 minutes ago, David1701 said: We cannot go beyond what Scripture states, so there is no way to know. I know that some believe that every child who dies, before the "age of accountability" (an uncertain concept), goes to be with the Lord; but, although I would like to believe this (I had a sister who died at just a few months old), I cannot prove it. We have to trust that all the Lord does is in perfect wisdom and according to his holy, loving, just character and leave the secret things to him. Quote We cannot go beyond what Scripture states, so there is no way to know. I agree that we can not provide answers beyond what Scripture states, however, are our answers limited to our interpretation of Scriptures? The reason I ask/say this, or at least raise this, is because ALL answers we have can be answered in a manner aligned with Scripture. For example, concerning election in relation to the post I initially posted, I cannot say yes/or no whether or not the child was "an" elect because Scripture states the following: 1 Tim 2: Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, 7 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth. All of mankind can respond (God's desire) and those who choose to "do so", we know are referred to as elect. God knows (foreknowledge), who will respond (those who will be saved), and "had" the child been allowed to live (but wasn't allowed due to the parent), the child would have HAD the possibility to come to the knowledge of the truth = hope. Quote I know that some believe that every child who dies, before the "age of accountability" (an uncertain concept), goes to be with the Lord; but, although I would like to believe this (I had a sister who died at just a few months old), I cannot prove it. I'm sorry for your loss. I pray the portion I posted with the 1 Tim 2 verses remove any need to "prove/disprove" what we call, "age of accountability." God knows (foreknowledge) who would have responded had they NOT had their choice taken from them (your sister's choice) or had their choice stolen from them (all aborted children). Quote We have to trust that all the Lord does is in perfect wisdom and according to his holy, loving, just character and leave the secret things to him. All in the Bible provides "hope" and if such was given in answer, then there is no hope. Claiming that we are to leave the "secret" things to God usually is another way of saying either, 1) "I don't know the answer," or, 2) "I can't provide an answer that counters the interpretation I have of the Scriptures." There is always the balance of Scripture understanding and we can't have God say, I pick who I save and then also say, I desire all to come to salvation. Such results in NO hope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David1701 Posted June 2, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,731 Content Per Day: 3.52 Reputation: 3,524 Days Won: 12 Joined: 11/27/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted June 2, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Slug1 said: I agree that we can not provide answers beyond what Scripture states, however, are our answers limited to our interpretation of Scriptures? The reason I ask/say this, or at least raise this, is because ALL answers we have can be answered in a manner aligned with Scripture. For example, concerning election in relation to the post I initially posted, I cannot say yes/or no whether or not the child was "an" elect because Scripture states the following: 1 Tim 2: Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, 7 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth. All of mankind can respond (God's desire) and those who choose to "do so", we know are referred to as elect. God knows (foreknowledge), who will respond (those who will be saved), and "had" the child been allowed to live (but wasn't allowed due to the parent), the child would have HAD the possibility to come to the knowledge of the truth = hope. The "all men" here refers to all without distinction, not all without exception. This can be seen clearly, by looking at the context. Verse 1 - if prayers were to be for all men without exception, then the prayer meetings would never end... Verse 2 - kings and those in authority are categories of people, not individuals (all without distinction, not all without exception) ---Foreknowledge, when referring to people, means intimate, favourable knowledge, in advance. It means knowing them, not merely knowing about them; in fact, according to BDAG (the foremost Koine Greek-English lexicon) it means "choosing beforehand". It does not refer to mere knowledge, in advance, of what people will do or choose. ---Hope, in the NT, means "confident, joyful expectation for the future". Unbelievers do not have biblical hope. We only get this hope when God saves us. Quote I'm sorry for your loss. I pray the portion I posted with the 1 Tim 2 verses remove any need to "prove/disprove" what we call, "age of accountability." God knows (foreknowledge) who would have responded had they NOT had their choice taken from them (your sister's choice) or had their choice stolen from them (all aborted children). Thank you for the condolence. It was a long time ago, but it did affect me quite strongly, for a number of years (less so now, with the passing of five decades). Salvation is not based on sinful man's choice, but upon God's choice. We did not choose Jesus, but he chose us. Quote All in the Bible provides "hope" and if such was given in answer, then there is no hope. Claiming that we are to leave the "secret" things to God usually is another way of saying either, 1) "I don't know the answer," or, 2) "I can't provide an answer that counters the interpretation I have of the Scriptures." In my case, I don't know the answer to what happens to children who die very young, or even unborn. Quote There is always the balance of Scripture understanding and we can't have God say, I pick who I save and then also say, I desire all to come to salvation. Such results in NO hope. God does say that he has picked whom he will save. He also says that he desires all to be saved, which means that the "all" cannot mean "all without exception"; rather, it means "all without distinction" (all kinds of people - rich, poor, young, old, black, white, etc, without reference to how many). Edited June 2, 2021 by David1701 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slug1 Posted June 3, 2021 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 104 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 86 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/03/2021 Status: Offline Share Posted June 3, 2021 (edited) 6 hours ago, David1701 said: Salvation is not based on sinful man's choice, but upon God's choice. We did not choose Jesus, but he chose us. God does say that he has picked whom he will save. He also says that he desires all to be saved, which means that the "all" cannot mean "all without exception"; rather, it means "all without distinction" (all kinds of people - rich, poor, young, old, black, white, etc, without reference to how many). While I've read all your post, the parts I left quoted is where the key is. You mention context but what I see is how you interpreted the 1 Tim 2 Scripture to have a meaning that remains within a theology. Why I say this, your context is limited to "just" those 6 verses. However, by looking into all context, "all" is based on Jew and Gentile. Has nothing to do with "how many." Only with mankind and ultimately, mankind is either Jew or Gentile. Any Jew and any Gentile can respond to the provision of grace/faith, and choose. God desires this and that is the point/meaning of the 1 Tim 2 verses. Edit: I just want to make a comment about your #1 statement concerning v 1 and I will get to the GK concerning foreknowledge at a later time. A favor? Can you cite (copy/paste) the BDAG defining of foreknowledge or provide a link for me to review? Quote Verse 1 - if prayers were to be for all men without exception, then the prayer meetings would never end... Disagree. I can pray for each and every member of this message board in one breath and in the next breath, conclude the prayer in Jesus' name. Edited June 3, 2021 by Slug1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David1701 Posted June 3, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,731 Content Per Day: 3.52 Reputation: 3,524 Days Won: 12 Joined: 11/27/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted June 3, 2021 (edited) 15 hours ago, Slug1 said: While I've read all your post, the parts I left quoted is where the key is. You mention context but what I see is how you interpreted the 1 Tim 2 Scripture to have a meaning that remains within a theology. Why I say this, your context is limited to "just" those 6 verses. However, by looking into all context, "all" is based on Jew and Gentile. Has nothing to do with "how many." That's what I said (the part I've made bold). Quote Only with mankind and ultimately, mankind is either Jew or Gentile. Yes, exactly. Quote Any Jew and any Gentile can respond to the provision of grace/faith, and choose. This is also true; BUT, each person responds according to his nature. The unregenerate will respond by rejecting the gospel, since he hates the light and is hostile towards God. Those whom God makes born again will respond in repentance and faith, flowing from that new heart/spirit that God has given them. Ez. 36:26,27 (WEB) 26 I will also give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and you shall keep my ordinances, and do them. John 3:3-7 (WEB) 3 Jesus answered him, “Most certainly, I tell you, unless one is born anew, he can’t see the Kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Most certainly I tell you, unless one is born of water and spirit, he can’t enter into the Kingdom of God! 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Don’t marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born anew.’ Quote Edit: I just want to make a comment about your #1 statement concerning v 1 and I will get to the GK concerning foreknowledge at a later time. A favor? Can you cite (copy/paste) the BDAG defining of foreknowledge or provide a link for me to review? I would if I could. I don't have BDAG but I've seen it quoted re. foreknowledge, on another forum, so my comment was from memory. Quote Disagree. I can pray for each and every member of this message board in one breath and in the next breath, conclude the prayer in Jesus' name. No; that is a general prayer, not for each individual. Proper prayer for individuals requires knowing something about them and their situation. It requires specific prayer, not, "Please bless everyone, amen.", which is a waste of time. Edited June 3, 2021 by David1701 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slug1 Posted June 3, 2021 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 104 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 86 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/03/2021 Status: Offline Share Posted June 3, 2021 (edited) 52 minutes ago, David1701 said: No; that is a general prayer, not for each individual. Proper prayer for individuals requires knowing something about them and their situation. It requires specific prayer, not, "Please bless everyone, amen.", which is a waste of time. I will be addressing other parts of your response when I can. This part I'm led to address now. Again, I have to disagree with your conclusion about prayer concerning "everyone" being a waste of time. The reason why is if I apply your reasoning/interpretation to Jesus' prayer in Gethsemane, then most of the prayer He spoke would fall into what you refer to, as a waste of time. Edit: Let me add, I do pray for America and it's leaders, I never name any of the population nor name leaders during prayer... have I been wasting my time = God doesn't know "who" I'm praying about? Edited June 3, 2021 by Slug1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David1701 Posted June 3, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,731 Content Per Day: 3.52 Reputation: 3,524 Days Won: 12 Joined: 11/27/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted June 3, 2021 39 minutes ago, Slug1 said: I will be addressing other parts of your response when I can. This part I'm led to address now. Again, I have to disagree with your conclusion about prayer concerning "everyone" being a waste of time. The reason why is if I apply your reasoning/interpretation to Jesus' prayer in Gethsemane, then most of the prayer He spoke would fall into what you refer to, as a waste of time. Edit: Let me add, I do pray for America and it's leaders, I never name any of the population nor name leaders during prayer... have I been wasting my time = God doesn't know "who" I'm praying about? If you are thinking about, for example, Joe Biden, when you are praying (and he desperately needs prayer!), then you don't need to name him in words, because your thoughts have already "named" him. Your prayer is still specific. If you are praying a general prayer, let's say, for revival in your country, then that is not a prayer for individuals anyway, so does not fall within the parameters of this discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slug1 Posted June 3, 2021 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 104 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 86 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/03/2021 Status: Offline Share Posted June 3, 2021 7 minutes ago, David1701 said: If you are thinking about, for example, Joe Biden, when you are praying (and he desperately needs prayer!), then you don't need to name him in words, because your thoughts have already "named" him. Your prayer is still specific. If you are praying a general prayer, let's say, for revival in your country, then that is not a prayer for individuals anyway, so does not fall within the parameters of this discussion. I can see how this specific part can do nothing but spin. Tell me, in Jesus' prayer and the use of "they" (NKJV), do you consider "they" as specific persons or many (non-specific) people? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David1701 Posted June 3, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,731 Content Per Day: 3.52 Reputation: 3,524 Days Won: 12 Joined: 11/27/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted June 3, 2021 4 minutes ago, Slug1 said: I can see how this specific part can do nothing but spin. Tell me, in Jesus' prayer and the use of "they" (NKJV), do you consider "they" as specific persons or many (non-specific) people? If you are referring to John 17, then the "they" is all of God's chosen people (the elect), every one of whom the Lord knows by name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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