Defense of the Mid Trib Rapture

[Larry 2]

3 hours ago, Sister said:

Galatians 3:7   Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Hebrews 6:12   That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

 

Romans 9:6   Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Romans 2:28   For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

Romans 2:29   But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

 Romans 3:9   What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

 Romans 3:29   Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

 Romans 9:24   Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

 Romans 10:12   For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

  1 Corinthians 1:22   For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
  1 Corinthians 1:23   But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

 

 

I think what you're saying is that there is neither Jew nor Greek in Christ, but only he that does the will of God. I context of the body that is true, but be it remembered also that part of the body; the twenty-four elders & the four beasts according to Rev 5:8-9 sing the song of being of all peoples and nations.

Rev 5:8  And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders (Part of the Church) fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 
Rev 5:9  And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; (These will include Israelites that believe on Jesus)

And then in Rev 7:4 it is very explicit as to the ethnicity of who God is working with, and/or judging at a given time. (Did they miss the opportunity to be part of the twenty-four elders or four beasts?) Rev 7:4  And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. 

[Larry 2]

4 hours ago, Sister said:

Larry 2

Revelation 15:1   And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

  Revelation 15:6   And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.

Can you see that all these angels are all God's angels?  They are coming out of the "temple" and clothed in "white".

So the third angel, and the fifth angel are God's angels, and not Satan.

Dear Sister, I’m glad you brought this out for it is a very real point concerning which Jesus is not only revealing to us, but working with us during the End Times.

Rev 1:1  The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto Him, to shew unto His servants things which must shortly come to pass; and He sent and signified it by His ANGEL unto His servant John:

I had put this on a back burner as it were not realizing how quickly it would reappear, but the “Angel” here is interpreted as a messenger from God. Where do we find this messenger, and its purpose?

Rev 19:9  And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Rev 19:10  And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Rev 22:8  And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

Rev 22:9  Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

Now let’s address the seven angels we read of in Rev 15:6.  And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.

Rev 15:7  And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

Rev 19:8  And to her (The bride of Christ) was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. (Or righteous deeds).

 

What I’m attempting to show here is that we in heaven will be working directly with God in His judgments of the world at that time.

1 Corinthians 6:3, "Know ye not that we shall judge angels?"

Notice the words the four beasts utter in complete union with Christ “saying, Come and see.” (in Rev 6:1,3,5,7.)

[Larry 2]

3 hours ago, Sister said:

The Man child is "singular".  It is Christ.  This Gene Hawkins is taking away the glory of Christ being resurrected and caught up to God's throne.

Dear Sister, to me this is akin to saying Jesus' body is but ONE even though we are told it is made up of the total Church

Next I believe you're attempting to say the Man Child being talked of in Rev 12:5 is Jesus Himself. Again time must take precedence in context to what John is being shown by Jesus' angel. Rev 4:1 says that John was told to go up to heaven and see things "Which must be hereafter." From when? Are you saying Jesus' birth? Was Satan cast to earth at the time of Jesus' birth to devour Mary's child as soon as He was born like that we read in Rev 12:4? 

Not hardly. Not only didn't the wise men not know where Jesus was as they went to Jerusalem instead of Bethlehem, Satan's minion Herod didn't know either according to Mt 2:16, and slew all the children of Bethlehem two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men. The wise men ended up finding Jesus already in a house some time later according to Mat 2:11  And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh. 

Jesus was not immediately caught up to God and His throne as the Man Child of Rev 12:5, and now I'm losing track of the many different posts, questions, and statements, so please let me know if I need to address something I've missed. 

Submitted in Jesus' name.

[Sister]

Hi Larry

Quote

I think what you're saying is that there is neither Jew nor Greek in Christ, but only he that does the will of God.

Yes! Concerning the resurrection there is no preference to race.  So Jews don't get preference over gentiles, and gentiles don't get preference over Jews, as all are one in Christ who follow him.  The same rules for all, and the same reward.  This is according to the heart ok. - but concerning the remnants of Israel (in the flesh) who will be brought back into the kingdom during the millennium is according to race.  Israel will get preference over the gentiles in this area through mercy.  They are not coming in because they follow Christ, but because of mercy when the veil is lifted.

Now having said all that, and going back to the resurrection of all the saints, in this group God has shown favour and divided the group.  Out of this large group are 144,000 chosen to be the firstfruits.  They are end time Christians who are chosen to be fed directly from the Lamb.  Just as Christ chose his 12 apostles in the beginning and fed them to teach us, he also choses end time saints who received the apostles message (the scriptures) even, at the end of it all when it's coming close to an end.

So if we understand that the remnants of Israel are coming into the kingdom in "the flesh", during the millennium, then this 144K cannot be them.  Why?  Because they follow the Lamb whithersoever he goes.  This is a big clue.  They are not remnants, but chosen Christians of the end times.  These are the ones who's spiritual sacrifices are accepted at the altar.  One may say Christ sacrificed for all, so our sacrifices are not needed, it does say that, but I am speaking of spiritual sacrifices.  Going that extra distance.  Whatever we lose in this world for Christ is accounted as gain.  Many Christians are still "in the world", and part of the world's system.  They love Christ, but also love the material things the world has to offer including all the celebrations and traditions etc.  They cannot part from it.  Christ told us to be separate from the world, and to not follow, which is why the angel warns God's people to come out of Babylon, .....for his people are still joined to her.  Babylon also provides different meat than what Christ gives on the spiritual side of things.  The serpent is so cunning, he has prepared for us many doctrines to follow.  If Christ feeds us himself, we will not be deceived and will know true doctrine from false.  This is our protection, knowledge and truth.  This is what we put on, and is our covering to hide our nakedness.  Without it, we can be deceived, because the devil is always lurking around the corner to pollute God's truth and lead us into deception.  The 144K are delivered from the serpent because they have been given the deep things of God in my opinion, and will be reaped first.  And them together at the end with the rest of the saints who take part in the resurrection will be one spectacular display.  Some stars shine brighter than others, but when put together, the glory will be amazing.  All are for the glory of the Lord.

[Larry 2]

1 hour ago, Sister said:

The 144K are delivered from the serpent because they have been given the deep things of God in my opinion, and will be reaped first. 

Thank you for your reply. I'm not sure your meaning here as it seems to be saying what I've asserted. Are you saying that these 144,000 are indeed of Israel, overcomers as it were of their tribes, and presented as the firstfruits unto God and the Lamb from a people under judgment? A people divorced being courted again, and the firstfruits of all Israel that shall be saved as we read in Rom 11:26.

I've thought of them being similar to the separation God used when He separated their marching order on the breastplate of judgment worn on Aaron's heart. 

God’s judgment has been shown as we see the tribes by birth on Aaron’s shoulders in Ex 28:8-10, and then the order on the Breastplate of Judgment according to Ex:28:29, and it can be as simple as obtaining God's best.

Be blessed in God's wonderful love of us.

[Sister]

Hi Larry

No, that is not what I am saying. 

The 12 tribes of Israel came out of Abraham through Isaac, not Ishmael.  Abraham is the father of Israel through Isaac and from there they have multiplied as the sand of the sea.  They all have the blood of Abraham in them, and they all came out of the 12 tribes of Israel.

But because of Christ, something changed.  Abraham is given even more children now, not according to blood, his seed, but according to "faith", the seed of Christ.  This is where the gentiles come into it.

Romans 4:13   For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. Romans 4:14   For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

Romans 4:16   Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
 

So if Abraham is Father of us all now, not just Israel, but also the Father of the gentiles who have attained "faith" also, then all are all numbered amongst the 12 tribes of Israel.  All these tribes are offered a portion in the kingdom. Some will come back in "the flesh", and some in the spirit after their change.

Galatians 3:8   And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Galatians 3:9   So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Galatians 3:14   That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

So if Abraham is Father to the 12 tribes of Israel, and now to the gentiles also, then all must be in the same family to receive the promises, because the gentiles are now included, and not excluded.  The 144K are picked out of these tribes to be sealed in the last days, for they are amongst the living, and it doesn't necessarily mean they are of Israel's blood, but of the seed of Christ whether Jew or gentile.  In other words they are "christians".

[Larry 2]

Hi Dear Sister and thanks for your explanation. I'm not aware your stance on the context of Romans Chapters Nine, Ten, and Eleven ut Paul seems adamant as to his intentions for Israel. He discusses their past, present, and future and then utters those words of Rom 11:25 explaining how that Israel is in blindness until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in, and then Rom 11:26 telling how that all Israel shall be saved. Do you think Paul is speaking of all mankind being saved there since you state we're all the same? 

Now in Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, but I hope you realize this is not pertaining to ALL Israel at this present time of the Gentiles? (Acts 15:14).

Gal 3:26  For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 
Gal 3:27  For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 
Gal 3:28  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 
Gal 3:29  And IF ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. 

I reckon these are the things blocking my understanding of your position, to me justifies my thinking that we'll just have to agree to disagree, love one another as brethren, and we will certainly see as the time nears; at least in my opinion.  

[Sister]

Quote

Hi Dear Sister and thanks for your explanation. I'm not aware your stance on the context of Romans Chapters Nine, Ten, and Eleven ut Paul seems adamant as to his intentions for Israel. He discusses their past, present, and future and then utters those words of Rom 11:25 explaining how that Israel is in blindness until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in, and then Rom 11:26 telling how that all Israel shall be saved. Do you think Paul is speaking of all mankind being saved there since you state we're all the same? 

Yes I am aware of Romans Chapter 9, 10 & 11. 

Israel were the chosen people of God called out of Egypt to serve him in all his laws and statutes.  When Israel obeyed, God fought their battles and blessed them.  However even before Christ came, Israel started going after strange gods and doing abominations, therefore they did not keep his laws and killed all the prophets sent to them.  When Jesus came, this was their invitation to have all their sins forgiven and wipe the slate clean, but they rejected Christ also, so God invited all the gentiles to learn his ways, and cut off Israel, so that the gentiles could be "grafted" in.  Because of their unbelief, God stopped feeding them, so the whole new testament is not understood by them because it is all based on Christ, and neither do they seek Christ in the NT to compare to the OT prophesies, but totally dismiss him and his purpose for salvation.

......But God has not forgotten Israel and his love for them, and neither is he happy with them for turning his back on them, for just like any father who loves his children, he will chastise them until the fullness of the gentiles come in, and this will happen at the resurrection of the saints at Christ's coming.

After Christ's comes and destroys the system of Babylon, he will set up his kingdom in Jerusalem, and the chosen remnants of Israel will be brought into the kingdom to live for a thousand years.  These remnants are hand picked, and chosen from all generations of Israel going right back to Adam, and most of them will be brought back from the grave to live again in the "flesh" and multiply.  There will also be remnants who will survive Armageddon.  These remnants chosen are according to the election of grace.  It does not include every single Israelite that ever lived, but only those chosen, and all together these will make up the "whole house of Israel". 

So in the kingdom, Israel will receive their promise, and they will learn Christ.  Not one of them will be lost, and the difference is that they will be flesh, and will live blessed for a hundred years, then they will die, and thus it continues until the thousand years has ended.  The resurrected saints will not be flesh, but changed to spirit, and will rule with Christ.  The saints have already inherited all things that belongs to God and he will use them to teach Israel, and go about God's business whereever he sends them.  Israel will in turn teach the nations, and all the nations living outside the kingdom will know that Israel is blessed for the Lord is with them.  Israel is not forgotten, and instead of bringing the Lord shame, they will bring the Lord glory and will be a light to the gentiles.  God is going to put things right and honor his promises.

The 144K, in my opinion are not of Israel's bloodline.  They are not the remnants of Israel, but are Christians whether Jew and gentile who serve the Lamb.  Christ said many are called but few are chosen, and I believe they are chosen as end time witnesses and have the full testimony of Jesus.  I do not believe they are from one particular church, but pockets of individuals scattered throughout the nations who serve God with a pure heart.

So regarding the saints, and the remnants there is a difference.  God has used his Word to give truth, and he has also used his Word as a stumbling block.  Understanding can only be given from above, based on what is written by discerning the scriptures, ie comparing scripture with scripture so that they all harmonise showing a clear picture with no distortions.  Must be in harmony.  If something contradicts then we must go back to the drawing room, get all our evidence and put it together piece by piece until we see that picture clearly.

God bless.

 

Edited July 12, 2016 by Sister

[Sister]

Larry 2

I forgot to mention that God instructs us not to puff ourselves up against Israel, because he is going to graft them back in again to bring glory to his name.  I have been on sites in the past where members preach that God is done with Israel, and they are cut off forever.  They don't even acknowledge the millennium and Israel's role in it, and therefore,, these with their proud speeches will be very red-faced, because they have not done their homework, and if they actually read the OT, they would see how wrong they are that Israel are chosen from the beginning, and it will end with them being very blessed.

[Larry 2]

3 hours ago, Sister said:

The 144K, in my opinion are not of Israel's bloodline.  They are not the remnants of Israel, but are Christians whether Jew and gentile who serve the Lamb.  Christ said many are called but few are chosen, and I believe they are chosen as end time witnesses and have the full testimony of Jesus.  I do not believe they are from one particular church, but pockets of individuals scattered throughout the nations who serve God with a pure heart.

How can we be so very close, and yet apart?

What you have described is what I would call the bride of Christ reigning with Christ as kings and priests on (over- they're in heaven) the earth (Rev 5:10), and not two churches because there is but one Church and that is the total body of Christ, but two conditions within the One Church according to their walk in Christ. 

As you have said these are those with pure hearts.

Again Dear Sister, I don’t know your thinking on the Song of Solomon being a picture of Christ courting His bride. He is referred to as “beloved,” and her as “love.”

Notice what the Beloved said, "Rise up, My love, My fair one, and come away (Son 2:10). To me they are the very ones with Jesus when He takes His own Crown (Rev 4:2) prior to the Temptation to come upon all the world who faithfully keep the word of God (Rev 3:10), and those that were faithful unto death (Rev 2:10), and of course these are them redeemed to God by Jesus’ blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation according to Rev 5:9.

I see the 144,000 as still being sealed just prior to Jacob's trouble, with even the evil winds being held back until their sealing is complete. Rev 7:1  And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

Now where the bride is said to be of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation, these 144,000 are definitely said to be of Israel.

Rev 7:4  And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel, and I just can't see them as any others.

You did say "God has used his Word to give truth, and he has also used his Word as a stumbling block. Understanding can only be given from above." Thanks for suggesting I may be on the stumbling block end of receiving God's word; I've heard similar implications applied to me when I don't agree with other's doctrines.