Defense of the Mid Trib Rapture

[Sister]

Quote

Let me add another thing to the mix. Rev 14:4  These (144,000) are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. (Any bells going off yet?)

Sorry I missed this.  The only bells going off is that most picture physical virgins.  Christ has given us the spiritual meaning.  When our robes are made white, we are seen to God as pure....like a virgin, serving him only and no other god. All sins forgiven.  To be defiled with "women" is to be defiled with religions.  The 144K are not defiled with religion, but follow the Lamb only (his Word), and not mans teachings.  Religions come out of man, but Christ has come out of God.  There's a big difference.

 

[Larry 2]

1 hour ago, Sister said:

No point in going around and around in circles.  I have said what I said, you can either consider it or leave it, it wont hurt my feelings.

Thank you dear Sister, we do seem to have opposing views concerning end times, and they will not change our destiny. God bless you in Jesus' name.

[Sister]

Ok, Larry, thank you too for this fine discussion.  When you first mentioned the 144K in your original post I thought you were seeing the same thing I was seeing.  You also quoted the same chapters that I connected in my understanding. I guess I got excited!  I still don't really know your position on the 144K and a little confused as to who you see that they really are?  You see them taken up last, I see them taken up first.  I see the title given them as "first-fruits", and I know that the first-fruits are always reaped first, not last. 

If you consider the 144K the remnants of Israel, and they are the firstfruits of them, then I can see where you are coming from.  I however don't see them as the remnants of Israel, but believers of Christ regardless what blood they have who are numbered out of the 12 tribes.  This would then make more sense of God's promise to Abraham in saying he will multiply his seed and give him more children according to faith.  Different type of children, those who would later come to worship his God also because of faith and not blood.  In saying that, Abraham's actual "seed", his bloodline has been multiplied also, so there is a spiritual group and a physical group.  One who accept Christ and one that doesn't.  That Israel that does not accept Christ now, will have mercy given at the coming, and the veil will be taken off.  The only difference is that they will multiply in flesh during the Millennium, whereas those of the first resurrection will not be flesh no more, but perfected to spirit.  I stated that God shows no preference to man, whether Jew or gentle and would like to clear this, meaning in "the resurrection of the saints only",...those who followed Christ.  Same law for all.  After this Israel is given preference of all the nations, concerning the flesh, for they will be brought into the Kingdom to dwell there amongst Christ and all the resurrected saints, and the gentiles will not live inside their borders.  The law will come forth out of Jerusalem, and every remnant will be blessed and filled with the spirit of Christ, and both Abraham's children - the spiritual ones, and the bloodline ones will live together in harmony and serve the Lord. 

Blessed be the name of God, and for the Israel to come who will make God proud this time when mercy is poured out.

 

[Larry 2]

1 hour ago, Sister said:

When you first mentioned the 144K in your original post I thought you were seeing the same thing I was seeing. 

Dear Sister, no problem and I may be stating things I take for assumption others are in accordance with.

Just so you know where I’m coming from concerning the catching up of the Church, and that includes the twenty-four elders (Rev 4:4), the four beasts Rev 4:6), the great multitude (Rev 7:14), and the one hundred and forty-four thousand as the Man Child (Rev 12:5 & shown in heavenly Jerusalem in Rev 14:1).

If you’ll notice, the man child is taken up just after Satan comes down to persecute the woman (Rev 12:1), and I have an excerpt from a study I have of Revelation that says the following:

“this mystery woman, this great wonder in heaven, this woman clothed with the sun, the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars is actually representative of the whole family of God in heaven and earth.”

And “Now Ephesians 2:19 says it this way. "Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God." But this is what we want to notice. The household of God includes those which are in heaven and those which are on the earth also. Ephesians 3:15 says, "Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named." So Verse One shows that this woman is the part of God's kingdom in heaven, and Revelation 12:13-17 shows that same woman on the earth, or that part of the kingdom of God on the earth.”

 It goes into much greater depth than that I’ve posted, but I’ll go on for now.

If you read the following scripture concerning Satan being cast out of heaven in Rev 12:9. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. This aligns with Rev 9:1  And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. Reading this portion of scripture we see Woe 1 concludes with Rev 9:12. This all starts with the reign of the man of sin in the second half of the seven years, and the 144,000 were spared this and we are shown them in Revelation Chapter 14.

My progression of the ranks of believers caught up unto God’s throne is simple to me in that it follows the outline Jesus’ angel is showing them arrive in heaven to John. I do not see the 144,000 being sealed in Revelation Chapter Seven preceding them already with Jesus in Revelation Four.

I mentioned something else concerning the 144,000 as being virgins told us in Rev 14:4. Does the five wise virgins of Israel have relevance?

Love in Christ Jesus.

[Sister]

Quote

If you read the following scripture concerning Satan being cast out of heaven in Rev 12:9. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. This aligns with Rev 9:1  And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. Reading this portion of scripture we see Woe 1 concludes with Rev 9:12. This all starts with the reign of the man of sin in the second half of the seven years, and the 144,000 were spared this and we are shown them in Revelation Chapter 14.

Hi Larry

 Revelation 9:1   And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

 Revelation 9:2   And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

You see this as Satan being that star falling from heaven and having the key to the bottomless pit?

Look at it from John's perspective.  The star "falling" is coming down very fast, that's how John sees it, like a star coming down with great speed.  That other star that "fell" from heaven happened a very long time ago.  That fall was spiritual.  For starters Satan doesn't have the key to the bottomless pit.

 Revelation 1:18   I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

 Revelation 20:1   And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

If that "key" was given to Satan to open up the bottomless pit, then why does this same key come down from heaven to lock him up?  The key was with Christ the whole time, and Jesus sends his angels to do his work.  So this star that John saw fall from heaven quickly, is God's angel.  Nothing is holding him back now, for Christ sends him down fast to do this job.

The spirits that are let out of the bottomless pit are locked up "in the earth" already.  They come not from heaven, but from below.  These are the angels that sinned in genesis who have been bound since the beginning.  They are coming up, now, not down, and this can not be when Satan is thrown out of heaven.

And yes they are commanded to not harm those who have the seal of God in their foreheads.  They will torment all those with the mark of the beast, and this will be a very evil time for the inhabitants of the earth.  But this is my question?  How many exactly have the seal of God written on their foreheads?  Only 144,000 and no more. This has been on my mind for some time.

 

[Larry 2]

2 hours ago, Sister said:

Hi Larry

 Revelation 9:1   And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

 Revelation 9:2   And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

You see this as Satan being that star falling from heaven and having the key to the bottomless pit?

Look at it from John's perspective.  The star "falling" is coming down very fast, that's how John sees it, like a star coming down with great speed.  That other star that "fell" from heaven happened a very long time ago.  That fall was spiritual.  For starters Satan doesn't have the key to the bottomless pit.

 Revelation 1:18   I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

 Revelation 20:1   And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

If that "key" was given to Satan to open up the bottomless pit, then why does this same key come down from heaven to lock him up?  The key was with Christ the whole time, and Jesus sends his angels to do his work.  So this star that John saw fall from heaven quickly, is God's angel.  Nothing is holding him back now, for Christ sends him down fast to do this job.

The spirits that are let out of the bottomless pit are locked up "in the earth" already.  They come not from heaven, but from below.  These are the angels that sinned in genesis who have been bound since the beginning.  They are coming up, now, not down, and this can not be when Satan is thrown out of heaven.

And yes they are commanded to not harm those who have the seal of God in their foreheads.  They will torment all those with the mark of the beast, and this will be a very evil time for the inhabitants of the earth. 

Jesus speaking of a future time saw this in Luk 10:18  And He said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Maybe the timing may be revealed better here in Rev 8:1.  And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. It is Jesus opening the seals as we read in Rev 5:5.  . . the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. 

Rev 8:10  And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star (Satan) from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;

Notice  2 Cor 11:14  And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Revelation 8:11. And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter. Water is oft referred to the word of God; has Satan made them bitter to the people? (Eph 5:26)

Rev 9:1  And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star (Satan) fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. (Who gave Satan this key?) Jesus said in Rev 1:18  I am He that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Rev 12:9  Rev 12:9  And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

I also have this following excerpt from a study by Gene Hawkins I transcribed from CD's showing his views of the 144,000.

"

Revelation 3:21. "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." This third rank of the Church is represented by Laodicea, and that condition is found in our day right now. Now this is really a special place of reigning, and the Laodicean Church actually refers to the one hundred and forty-four thousand.

"They are going to have to overcome and I am quite sure many of the one hundred and forty-four thousand are in the world today though they are not the full overcoming group. As we get on into Revelation we will read that they're not filled with the Spirit, but they will be and we'll see the significance of that as they go on. There is that sealing of the one hundred and forty-four thousand in Revelation 7:4-8, but then they will have to go on before they are finally caught up. So keep in mind that the one hundred and forty-four thousand are all Israel of twelve tribes of Israel and now what we must understand with the one hundred and forty-four thousand is that some of that one hundred and forty-four thousand have already gone home to be with the Lord. You can compare it with Matthew 19:27-28. "Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?" They had basically overcame the same conditions that we see in this Laodicean condition today, but they were doing that when Jesus was here and so what did Jesus promise them?  28  "And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." He promised them that they would reign upon twelve thrones over the twelve tribes of Israel. That place is going to be enjoyed by the one hundred and forty-four thousand.

So those early apostles are kingdom apostles, and they are going to find their place in this third rank reward of this church that we have here and the reason that it is called of the Church is because the one hundred and forty-four thousand form the bridge between God's kingdom which is in heaven, and God's kingdom on the earth. In the very beginning of this age, this same group formed a bridge between the kingdom and the Church. It will be the same way in the end time.

This is also represented by Matthew 25:1-13 in the parable of the ten virgins. There were five that were wise, and you'll remember that they had oil in their lamps and were taken to heaven. We're going to find that in Revelation Chapter Seven how that these one hundred and forty-four thousand are pictured as the "Man Child" there, and they are sealed which means they are filled with the Holy Ghost and that's the only difference between the five wise virgins, and the five foolish virgins as we saw in Matthew Chapter Twenty-five is that the five wise virgins had oil and the five foolish didn't. Alright, the five wise virgins are the one hundred and forty-four thousand which are heavenly people that get to go up, and when is it? Remember, the call went out at midnight and that tells us that this third rank is not going to realize their reward until the middle of the tribulation period when they are taken up to heaven. When they are translated up to heaven they will reign as we see here with Christ in His throne as is promised to them. "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in My throne even as I also overcame and am set down with My Father in His throne." That specifically applies to the one hundred and forty-four thousand of reigning with Christ."

2 hours ago, Sister said:

this is my question?  How many exactly have the seal of God written on their foreheads?  Only 144,000 and no more. This has been on my mind for some time.

A quote I also have from Brother Gene Hawkins in a study he did on Daniel was “When God speaks and works with the Gentiles it really is in symbolic terms, but when He works with the Jews it is in exact days.” I wonder if this isn’t true of the numbering and sealing of the 144,000 also.

Blessings Sister in Jesus.

[Sister]

Larry 2

Revelation 15:1   And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

  Revelation 15:6   And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.

Can you see that all these angels are all God's angels?  They are coming out of the "temple" and clothed in "white".

So the third angel, and the fifth angel are God's angels, and not Satan.

[Sister]

Larry 2

Quote

"They are going to have to overcome and I am quite sure many of the one hundred and forty-four thousand are in the world today though they are not the full overcoming group. As we get on into Revelation we will read that they're not filled with the Spirit, but they will be and we'll see the significance of that as they go on.

Gene Hawkins made a mistake.....

 Revelation 14:4   These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

If one is following the Lamb whitheroever he goes, they are following his commandments.  They would be FULL of the spirit, not the opposite.  The truth is turned upside down.

 Revelation 14:5   And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

  Matthew 16:24   Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

 Matthew 19:28   And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

 

 Luke 17:23   And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.
 

[Sister]

Quote

So keep in mind that the one hundred and forty-four thousand are all Israel of twelve tribes of Israel

Galatians 3:7   Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Hebrews 6:12   That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

 

Romans 9:6   Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Romans 2:28   For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

Romans 2:29   But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

 Romans 3:9   What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

 Romans 3:29   Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

 Romans 9:24   Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

 Romans 10:12   For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

  1 Corinthians 1:22   For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
  1 Corinthians 1:23   But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

 

 

[Sister]

Quote

This is also represented by Matthew 25:1-13 in the parable of the ten virgins. There were five that were wise, and you'll remember that they had oil in their lamps and were taken to heaven. We're going to find that in Revelation Chapter Seven how that these one hundred and forty-four thousand are pictured as the "Man Child" there,

The Man child is "singular".  It is Christ.  This Gene Hawkins is taking away the glory of Christ being resurrected and caught up to God's throne.

 Revelation 12:5   And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

We shall follow in Christ's footsteps, but he was the first one resurrected.  "Her child" is speaking of only one, not 144,000.  They followed that man child, Jesus because of his teachings and his mercy, therefore they are Christians, holy and chosen, not the opposite.