Defense of the Post Trib Rapture

[Guest]

You know, I find one thing interesting. Presumably, the majority of Christians on this board, are pre-trib. However, there are way more posts on the post trib defense than the pretrib defense.

Figures don't lie, but liers figure! One could guess why the responses are skirred the way they are, For example, perhaps there are so many more posts in the post-trib defense, because this minority of people have so much evidence on their side, that it comes out lopsided. Or, perhaps, post-tribbers are so insecure, that they have to write all of these posts, just to convince themselves.

[Trinity]

I wasn't handing any out and I don't believe Omegaman was either though he can tell you himself.

Well, speaking for myself, I was handing out sympathy, but not as in feeling sorry for Trinity, but in the sense of just understanding what it is like to have so many coming at you, there is only so much time, and these posts can take some time.

We have a delemna here......Two doctrines and only one is true.

Well, I assume that what I believe is true, in as much as I believe that is where the evidence leads. Of course, at least theoretically, both views could be wrong. Neither of these two views can be supported by every verse. I assume we are all on the same page, that the Bible should be understood literally, unless there is compelling reason not to. Therein lies the rub. IF, some verses are meant to be understood outside of there apparent literal meaning, we could all be wrong. For that reason, I consider myself about 95% certain that I have it about right. Of course, I thought the same thing 20 years ago, and I was wrong then.

I am looking forward to Trinity's upcoming response, that should be an interesting read. Thank's for your heart brother. I like the tone of this thread, I haven't been called stupid or Satanic yet.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanx O-man

[Guest Frankie boy]

I consider myself about 95% certain that I have it about right. Of course, I thought the same thing 20 years ago, and I was wrong then.

Hi "O",

I agree with your 95% assessment of postrib. This debate is healthy in the stirring up of our understanding of the proof texts but also in our acceptance of each other even when we disagree.

i have been on a lot of boards where the responses to a post seemed to be coming from the world rather than a brother or sister in Christ. So I think the Lord has really allowed these differing views to see if above all, we will "Love one another as He has loved us".

So this is my favorite text when sharing in these debates...

Prov 27:17 Iron sharpeneth iron ; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.

We can learn from one another and should, seeing that we still "all see thru a glass darkly".

And what we should want above all else is the revelation of God's truth so that we can encourage those who are babes waiting for their teeth to come in that they might enjoy the meat of the word also. I am sure that there are many who read our posts that never post themselves. They need to be encouraged to study the texts shared rather than just siding in with the view that sounds good.....and pretrib sounds good but I fear it is for our flesh rather than our spirit. Who wants to suffer or be persecuted? None! But to follow in the Lord's steps is still the command. And what can man do to us? Kill the body but not the soul. If I am martyred I just go home to be with the Lord a little sooner than the one who endures to the end. But together we all will be at the first resurrection where there will be only one view....His glorious face.

Amen!

Frankie boy

[Trinity]

Oh brother, don't you see we can say the same thing you just told me Fankyboy?

[JesusisGod2]

Hi Frankie Boy,

In the opening of the sixth seal, Christ's wrath is about to commence but does not happen until the opening of the seventh seal which allows the scroll to be opened and the wrath of God begins with the seven angels who blow the seven trumpets. At the seventh trumpet, the seven vials are poured out. This is the chronology of God's wrath during the seventieth week.

This is good! Although I would like to study further as I am not so sure that the Revelation is written in a chronological order, however, I really like what you said that until all 7 seven seals have been broken the scroll cannot be opened and do not disagree with this either.

Christ Himself said that while in this world we will experience tribulation,

John 16:33

"These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."

wheteher great or small, there is no comparisson between Gods wrath and world tribulation. The church through tribulation is strengthened, not weakend.

I too believe in post trib pre-wrath rapture and so please dont think I am disagreeing, instead am sharing a couple of verses that back your position. A couple of things to be considered are in the two following verses:

Revelation 7:3

saying, " Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads."

God will mark those who are His, just as satan will require a mark in order to buy or sell (he always trys to immitate God), it says nothing about rapturing us but sealing His own specifically the Jews, and in fact tells the angels to hold back until they are sealed. I do realize that He is speaking of the 144,000 specifically here, who will be of the twelve tribes of Israel. But what I am trying to get at is that God will not harm his own. But we also have been sealed, when we were born of the Spirit.

In the next set of verses, where John speaks of after these are sealed, the great multitude are before Gods throne:

Rev 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;

10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb."

Now this appears to happen after the seals chronologically as you have stated. It also appears to happen right after the sixth seal judgement, (the seventh seal when opened is when Gods wrath is poured out) if this is so, are the 144,000 sealed right before the rapture? This is where I admittedly am confused.

Also:

Revelation 9:4

They were told not to hurt the grass of the earth, nor any green thing, nor any tree, but only the men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

Again God says that the only harm that can be done are to those who do not have the seal of God on their forehead, is this to say that the church will still be here? if so who are the those in Revelation 7:9?

I do not believe that the church will experience Gods wrath, This is not to say that we will not experience satans fury, as some will be be-headed and persecuted because of the testimony of Jesus, for His sake and His gospel as a testimony to the world, yet by our persecution many will be brought to Christ by His mercy and love.

Thanks Frankie, for sharing your views on this important matter. I too was one who used to believe in pre-trib rapture, and to tell the truth I hope they are right, but the more I study the subject, i just dont see like that anymore and it is actually hard to make the scriptures fit this doctrine and yet I do have trouble with the above verse mentioned, however I do need alot more study thats for sure.

"This is not us against you./ It is the truth versus the error. And scripture is the umpire,

Amen!

God Bless!

[Guest Frankie boy]

Hi Jesusisgod,

Thx for the reply.

You wrote

This is good! Although I would like to study further as I am not so sure that the Revelation is written in a chronological order, however, I really like what you said that until all 7 seven seals have been broken the scroll cannot be opened and do not disagree with this either.

Me

The seals on a document were always on the outside of a scroll. Only the one to whom the doc was sent had the authority to open the scroll. So if a scroll had one seal on it. It would have a short messege from the sender. The one who received the scroll would read and then remove the seal in order for the scroll to be opened and then read it's contents.

In the case of Rev 6, we have seven seals on the outside of the scroll, each with it's own message. It is not until the seventh seal is broken that the contents of the scroll could be read. In which I believe contains God's wrath beginnig to be poured out in ch 8.

You

In the next set of verses, where John speaks of after these are sealed, the great multitude are before Gods throne:

Rev 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;

10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb."

Now this appears to happen after the seals chronologically as you have stated. It also appears to happen right after the sixth seal judgement, (the seventh seal when opened is when Gods wrath is poured out) if this is so, are the 144,000 sealed right before the rapture? This is where I admittedly am confused.

Me

Now I did not mean all of Rev is chronological, only the seals lead to the trumpets and the trumpets lead to the bowls. But in between, we have what I call interludes and ch 7 seems IMO to be one of them. John pauses and gives some new info concerning a great multitude in the heavenlies. But what most miss, is how they got there....Most believe this is the raptured church. But if you read this portion....

Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which "CAME OUT OF GREAT TRIBULATION", and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

NOTE: The washing of their robes in the blood of the Lamb signifies that they arrived in the heavenlies as martyrs and not the rapture at all. For in the following verses, you see a bunch of "SHALLS" which means all that is being said has not happened yet.

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne "shall" dwell among them.

16 They "shall" hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither "shall" the sun light on them, nor any heat.

17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne "shall" feed them, and "shall" lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God "shall" wipe away all tears from their eyes.

KJV

So if I am right, then this group is a lot of the church that enters the seventieth week but dies in it and "shall rest from all their labor" until the Second Coming which will happen after the wrath of the week is thru. Notice that The AC has power over the saints for 42 months which is the last half of the week. See Rev 13 and Dan 7.

Now those of the church that are "alive and remain" are those Paul speeks of in 1 Thess 4. Just a small remnant at the Coming and the "first res" of ch 20.

I know this a lot to chew on, but chew you must until confusion is overcome with revelation.

You

I do not believe that the church will experience Gods wrath, Amen!

Me

You are right on us not experiencing God's wrath. But where I believe prewrath errors, is they think the church must be removed not to experience it.

You need to see Noah, Lot, the Hebrews during the plagues, Rahab in Jerico, Dan in the den, and the three Hebrews in the furnace. They all were delivered at the "same time" that God's wrath was poured out on the wicked. "He Changes Not" so what He did in the past for His people, He will do in the future also.

Read Rev 3 with this in mind and you will see that God will "keep" (to garrison around) His people and keep them secure in the sphere of evil while still in the midst of it. They do not and will not be removed prewrath.

I hope I at least cleared up where I am coming from and will try to answer any other questions you may have. But remember, none of us has a complete handle on all portions of Rev, but we will keep on keeping on until that "Day", Lord willing.

Sorry about the You and Me thing. I don't know how to box off quotes. Help!

Your brother,

Frankie boy

"Iron sharpeneth iron as a man the countenance of his friend"

Edited May 10, 2005 by Frankie boy

[Guest Frankie boy]

Oh brother, don't you see we can say the same thing you just told me Fankyboy?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Trin,

Sorry to see you are playing a word game. I do not believe you would even consider another view. You are a "born again" pretribber and you will therefore probably remain one if you choose. I am not trying to change your view, only asking you to prove it!

If I am wrong on my assessment of you, I still challenge you to prove that "Imminence" is not a faulty plank of Pretrib dogma!!! EASY, right??

But if you just want to "dig", I have better things to do with my time with those that are serious about the truth. There is no competion coming from me.

Peace Bro,

Frankie boy

[Guest]

This is good! Although I would like to study further as I am not so sure that the Revelation is written in a chronological order

Now this appears to happen after the seals chronologically as you have stated. It also appears to happen right after the sixth seal judgement, (the seventh seal when opened is when Gods wrath is poured out) if this is so, are the 144,000 sealed right before the rapture? This is where I admittedly am confused.

Revelation is clearly not in chronological order. Let me restate that, it may be that John is recounting the vision in the order he received it, but the events depicted, do not happen chronologically, it kind of goes back and forth, pay close attention when you study it. Some examples, the bowls, seals and trumpets, have been seen in linear sequence, parallel, and with overlaps, I am sure there are other ways as well.

Revelation 14:1 has Jesus standing on Mount Zion with the 144,000 Jews when the bowls are still yet to come in chapter 16 yet his return is in chapter 19.

Rev 14 14 and 18 describe the fall of Babylon as if it has just taken place.

Revelation 6:12-14 describes the great cosmic signs which Jesus said would take place "after the tribulation"

Revelation 6 and 16 both describe all of the mountains and islands disappearing.

If one wants to merely discover the sequence of events, and particularly the timing of the rapture, the case can be made entirely outside of Revelation, where the language is clearer, less symbolism, and easy to understand. Though there are certainly rewards to reading Revelation, the chronology is best determined outside Revelation, and Revelation fills in some details.

I too believe in post trib pre-wrath rapture and so please dont think I am disagreeing, instead am sharing a couple of verses that back your position.

Careful there. I believe in a post-trib rapture. Not all post-tribbers are pre-wrath, or more specifically, the are postitions which are referred to as pre-wrath which do not reflect what most post-tribbers believe. You might want to describe what YOU mean by being post/pre.

[JesusisGod2]

Me

You are right on us not experiencing God's wrath. But where I believe prewrath errors, is they think the church must be removed not to experience it.

You need to see Noah, Lot, the Hebrews during the plagues, Rahab in Jerico, Dan in the den, and the three Hebrews in the furnace. They all were delivered at the "same time" that God's wrath was poured out on the wicked. "He Changes Not" so what He did in the past for His people, He will do in the future also.

Now so as not to confuse Gods wrath and the worlds tribulation, we will experience great tribulation such being beheaded for out testimony and not bowing down to the evil one, rejection, not being able to buy or sell, not having a place to live (how can we pay rent/mortage if we are not allowed the transfer of monies), not being able to worship in the ways that we have become accustmed to (at least here in the US). It will most definately not be a pleasant time, but God will not forsakes us.

But as far as when God pours out His wrath, I do not believe the church will be here, as a matter of fact we will come back with Him and fight at the battle of Armeggedon, clothed in righteousness.

I also believe that these two events are the same:

Rev 19:5 And a voice came from the throne, saying, "Give praise to our God, all you His bond-servants,

[JesusisGod2]

This is good! Although I would like to study further as I am not so sure that the Revelation is written in a chronological order

Now this appears to happen after the seals chronologically as you have stated. It also appears to happen right after the sixth seal judgement, (the seventh seal when opened is when Gods wrath is poured out) if this is so, are the 144,000 sealed right before the rapture? This is where I admittedly am confused.

Revelation is clearly not in chronological order. Let me restate that, it may be that John is recounting the vision in the order he received it, but the events depicted, do not happen chronologically, it kind of goes back and forth, pay close attention when you study it. Some examples, the bowls, seals and trumpets, have been seen in linear sequence, parallel, and with overlaps, I am sure there are other ways as well.

Revelation 14:1 has Jesus standing on Mount Zion with the 144,000 Jews when the bowls are still yet to come in chapter 16 yet his return is in chapter 19.

Rev 14 14 and 18 describe the fall of Babylon as if it has just taken place.

Revelation 6:12-14 describes the great cosmic signs which Jesus said would take place "after the tribulation"

Revelation 6 and 16 both describe all of the mountains and islands disappearing.

If one wants to merely discover the sequence of events, and particularly the timing of the rapture, the case can be made entirely outside of Revelation, where the language is clearer, less symbolism, and easy to understand. Though there are certainly rewards to reading Revelation, the chronology is best determined outside Revelation, and Revelation fills in some details.

I too believe in post trib pre-wrath rapture and so please dont think I am disagreeing, instead am sharing a couple of verses that back your position.

Careful there. I believe in a post-trib rapture. Not all post-tribbers are pre-wrath, or more specifically, the are postitions which are referred to as pre-wrath which do not reflect what most post-tribbers believe. You might want to describe what YOU mean by being post/pre.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hey thanks for sharing your views Omega Man!

I dont have a whole lot of time this morning to describe what my position is as far as post-trib/prewrath view. But I hope to reply later.

I briefly touched on it in my post above, and I understand what you mean as far as how many different views as to the meaning of this stance.

I will say the that the great tribulation which last approx 3 1/2 years and Gods wrath are not the same events.

God bless

Kevin