Israel in Prophesy (still future vs 1948)

[dad2]

3 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

I did,  except you refuse to believe it,  in absence of any scripture or historical evidence on your behalf.  Maybe you will believe it when God turns on the furnace. 

The children of Israel won't acknowledge God gathering them back to the their land until they are given into the hands of their enemies and they sanctify God in the sight of many nations.

Eze 39:17-28 KJV ¹⁷ And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood. ¹⁸ Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan. ¹⁹ And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you. ²⁰ Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD. ²¹ And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them. ²² So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward. ²³ And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword. ²⁴ According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them. ²⁵ Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name; ²⁶ After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid. ²⁷ When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;

²⁸ Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

Hopefully,  you will come to acknowledge God's gathering hand before they do.   They won't know it until after the attack by Gog. 

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

 

 

No you did not. The verses you cited are history except for Jer and that does and could never apply to history. Try getting a verse that deals with the last days, or 'that day' etc. When God brings them back that will be what all the prophesies are about. Show one verse dealing with that time of the end where God brings them back?  One single verse?

Don't talk about ancient history and what God tended to do etc. There are those who claim God brought them back. One verse please.

Edited August 26, 2021 by dad2

[dad2]

10 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

Until you provide scriptural and/ or historical evidence of your antithesis about Ezekiel 22, your rebuttal will continue to fall on deaf ears. 

If you would have taken the time to read Eze 5, you would see: 

1.  The focus is Jerusalem,  v.5,

Eze 5:5 KJV Thus saith the Lord GOD; This is Jerusalem: I have set it in the midst of the nations and countries that are round about her.

2. It is about the children of Israel,  v.7,

Eze 5:7 KJV Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye multiplied more than the nations that are round about you, and have not walked in my statutes, neither have kept my judgments, neither have done according to the judgments of the nations that are round about you;

3. It is the time of greatest tribulation, v.9,

Eze 5:9 KJV And I will do in thee that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like, because of all thine abominations.

4.  The remnant will be the ones scattered from there into all the winds,  v.10 & 12,

Eze 5:10 KJV Therefore the fathers shall eat the sons in the midst of thee, and the sons shall eat their fathers; and I will execute judgments in thee, and the whole remnant of thee will I scatter into all the winds.

Eze 5:12 KJV A third part of thee shall die with the pestilence, and with famine shall they be consumed in the midst of thee: and a third part shall fall by the sword round about thee; and I will scatter a third part into all the winds, and I will draw out a sword after them.

5. It is the merciless, fury of God,  v.11 & 13,

Eze 5:11 KJV Wherefore, as I live, saith the Lord GOD; Surely, because thou hast defiled my sanctuary with all thy detestable things, and with all thine abominations, therefore will I also diminish thee; neither shall mine eye spare, neither will I have any pity.

Eze 5:13 KJV Thus shall mine anger be accomplished, and I will cause my fury to rest upon them, and I will be comforted: and they shall know that I the LORD have spoken it in my zeal, when I have accomplished my fury in them.

6.  The result will be the desolation in utter astonishment of Jerusalem,  v.15,

Eze 5:15 KJV So it shall be a reproach and a taunt, an instruction and an astonishment unto the nations that are round about thee, when I shall execute judgments in thee in anger and in fury and in furious rebukes. I the LORD have spoken it.

7. The remnant are the ones who are then gathered from the 4 winds,  Isa 11,

Isa 11:11-12 KJV ¹¹ And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. ¹² And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

Unless you don't believe that the people [of the nation of Israel],  are not the ones to be brought there for judgment, I can't help you see that they will be gathered there in unbelief first.   Maybe you believe that there is a future gathering of the unbelieving jews, relative to what is ongoing there today [but I am doubting that of you]; then I could understand your resilience to why they are there now... not for judgment.   

Maybe, it would help you if I were to say that the current nation of Israel does not fulfill the words of Eze 37.  The remnant's return will be preceded by a gathering of the unbelieving house of Israel.   If you can't see that,  I don't know of what else I can say. 

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

 

Eze 5 is history not prophesy of the end time. Or did you think otherwise??

Isa 11 is dealing with that day. That period when the lion shall lay down with the lamb etc. Surely you do not think that applies to 1948!!?

[dad2]

On 8/26/2021 at 11:22 AM, Da Puppers said:

Eze 5 is absolutely not history unless you think Jesus is lying when he said, 

Mat 24:21 KJV For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Eze 5:9 KJV And I will do in thee that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like, because of all thine abominations.

I don't know why you keep thinking that I believe that the remnant was regathered in 1948.  Isa 11 is clearly about the return of remnant.   There is only one "2nd" gathering of the remnant. 

Isa 11:11 KJV And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

History doesn't contradict prophecy,  but you believe there are two remnants and two greatest tribulations.   I choose to believe the Bible over the contradictory historians that you have put your trust in. 

The PuP 

No. I wsee nothing that makes this end of the world at all. The commentaries I looked at suggest no such thing either. Example:

"The judgments Ezekiel 5:12-17 of “famine, pestilence,” and the “sword,” were precisely those which attended the coming siege of Jerusalem"

https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng/bnb/ezekiel-5.html#verse-12

Nor have you showed any part of that chapter to be end of the world era! Wishful thinking does not cut it.

 

Work on that.

[dad2]

On 8/25/2021 at 5:43 PM, Da Puppers said:

I did,  except you refuse to believe it,  in absence of any scripture or historical evidence on your behalf.  Maybe you will believe it when God turns on the furnace. 

The children of Israel won't acknowledge God gathering them back to the their land until they are given into the hands of their enemies and they sanctify God in the sight of many nations.

Eze 39:17-28 KJV ¹⁷ And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood. ¹⁸ Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan. ¹⁹ And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you. ²⁰ Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD. ²¹ And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them. ²² So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward. ²³ And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword. ²⁴ According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them. ²⁵ Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name; ²⁶ After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid. ²⁷ When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;

²⁸ Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

Hopefully,  you will come to acknowledge God's gathering hand before they do.   They won't know it until after the attack by Gog. 

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

 

 

Except I see nothing in Eze 39 that says God gathered them before He gathers them after they repent. Don't pretend it is me 'not believing'. It is you running on empty! Show the verse in Eze 39 that says God gathers them in Israel before that time when He returns to save the repented people? One verse!?

[dad2]

On 8/28/2021 at 7:52 AM, Da Puppers said:

Eze 5 is not about the 3 judgments of sword, famine and pestilence,  as was the case with Nebuchadrezzar.   But it is about the 4 sore judgments Jerusalem,

Eze 5:17 KJV So will I send upon you FAMINE and evil BEASTS, and they shall bereave thee; and PESTILENCE and blood shall pass through thee; and I will bring the SWORD upon thee. I the LORD have spoken it.

Eze 14:21-23 KJV ²¹ For thus saith the Lord GOD; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the SWORD, and the FAMINE, and the noisome BEAST, and the PESTILENCE, to cut off from it man and beast? ²² Yet, behold, therein shall be left a REMNANT that shall be brought forth, both sons and daughters: behold, they shall come forth unto you, and ye shall see their way and their doings: and ye shall be comforted concerning the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, even concerning all that I have brought upon it. ²³ And they shall comfort you, when ye see their ways and their doings: and ye shall know that I have not done without cause all that I have done in it, saith the Lord GOD.

When you read the text of Eze 14, you will find that deliverance in Jerusalem comes "by their own righteousness".  Who are those that escape these judgments?  They are the remnant.   You won't find anywhere in scripture where the seige of Nebu consisted of 4 judgments.   A comparison of Eze 5 and 6 shows this difference. 

Eze 6:12 KJV He that is far off shall die of the pestilence; and he that is near shall fall by the sword; and he that remaineth and is besieged shall die by the famine: thus will I accomplish my fury upon them.

1. Pestilence,  those who are far off.

2. Sword, those who are near.

3. Famine, those who remain in the city. 

Eze 5:12 KJV A third part of thee shall die with the pestilence, and with famine shall they be consumed in the midst of thee: and a third part shall fall by the sword round about thee; and I will scatter a third part into all the winds, and I will draw out a sword after them.

1. Pestilence,  those in the midst of thee.

2. Famine, [also] this in the midst of thee.

3. Sword,  those round about thee.

Here,  both pestilence and famine shall consume those in the midst of thee.  But in chapter 6, one is near and the other is far off.  We also see opposite fulfilment of the sword.   Near in Eze 6, round about Jerusalem in chapter 5.  We see a reiterating of chapter 5 in Eze 7, but with clarifying specificity,

Eze 7:15 KJV The sword is without, and the pestilence and the famine within: he that is in the field shall die with the sword; and he that is in the city, famine and pestilence shall devour him.

Eze 5 and 6 are clearly different events.   One has been historically fulfilled.  The other has not. 

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

So where in chap 6 does it say God brings them there before they repent?

[dad2]

On 8/28/2021 at 8:26 AM, Da Puppers said:

How do you suppose they got there?  A transporter?  Scott!

Do you understand the word then mean afterwards? 

Eze 39:27-28 KJV ²⁷ When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them [WHEN I HAVE GATHERED THEM] out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;

[Do you understand how God is  "sanctified in the sight of many nations"? -Eze 38:16 KJV And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.  

HOW is God sanctified in their eyes?  By delivering them out of the hand of Gog!  

WHEN is God sanctified in them?  When Gog attacks Israel,  the people "gathered many nations".

Eze 38:16 KJV And thou shalt come up against MY PEOPLE of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against MY LAND, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.

WHAT happens afterward?  

²⁸ THEN shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

..."AND HAVE LEFT NONE OF THEM THERE... but I have gathered them,  and now none of them are left there anymore!   Read that last verse again. 

²⁸ THEN shall they know that I am the LORD their God,... and have left none of them any more there.

How did that come about?  It came about as a result of God gathering HIS PEOPLE to HIS LAND, and removing every last one of them. What happens then? 

 Eze 39:25 KJV Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; NOW will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name; 

WHEN does God bring again their captivity and have mercy on the WHOLE HOUSE of Israel?  AFTER THIS: 

Eze 39:26-27 KJV ²⁶ After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid. ²⁷ When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;

Beam me out of here Scotty!

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

He only gathers them out of their enemies hands after they repent. Not in 1948

[dad2]

40 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

 

Why do you ask this?   Eze 6 is historically fulfilled by Nebuchadnezzar.   They have been dwelling in the land continuously since the days of the prophets.  But Eze 5 is unfulfilled prophecy, that is not the same event as Eze 6.  

The primary difference between between the two is the remnant.   When you understand that it is the remnant,  and only the remnant, that repents AND is returned to the land, it is not necessary,  even in Eze 5, to declare how  unrepentant Israel got there in the first place,  because only the remnant returns to the land in light of them repenting.   It is [only] the remnant that will be ungirdled from the blindness that pervades the house of Israel,  even to this day.  You should review the extensive quotation of Isa 6 by Jesus and Paul in how and when the blindness upon Israel will end.  

Isa 6:10-13 KJV ¹⁰ Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. ¹¹ Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate, ¹² And the LORD have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land. ¹³ But yet in it shall be a tenth, and it shall return, and shall be eaten: as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance is in them, when they cast their leaves: so the holy seed shall be the substance thereof.

Mat 13:14 KJV And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

Joh 12:39-41 KJV ³⁹ Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, ⁴⁰ He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. ⁴¹ These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

Act 28:25-28 KJV ²⁵ And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers, ²⁶ Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: ²⁷ For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. ²⁸ Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

Rom 11:8-10 KJV ⁸ (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. ⁹ And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: ¹⁰ Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

Rom 11:25-26 KJV ²⁵ For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. ²⁶ And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Isa 6:11 KJV Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,

They can only be judged for sins and their sinful behaviors by being gathered to the land before they repent,  making the land utterly desolate,  by leaving not one of them there.  Eze 39:25-27 is focused on the point at which the remnant is gathered to the land... after they have borne their sins... after I gathered them to their land and left none of them their.  They will (because of those things)  know that I am the LORD their God and for God will not hide his face any more from them.   Their gathering didn't happen in 1948.. it only began in preparation for their judgment.   If you can't see this,  you will be among those that that day will come upon you unawares and unprepared. 

The PuP 

Don't worry about why did someone ask. Worry about answering the question. The reason we need to know if Israel repented is to see when and what is being talked about. God only brings them back and destroys their enemies after they do repent. You brought up Eze 39. You quoted the part that says

 

"[WHEN I HAVE GATHERED THEM] out of their enemies' lands.." When do you think that is talking about, before they repent??

[dad2]

40 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

Not according to Eze 38-39.  You might try giving a scripture to back up your claim.   Do you not have anything worthy of continuing this fruitless discussion? 

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

You might show where in eze that it says He gathers them in 1948! EVERY verse I have seen so far that talks about that time when He gathers them is obviously after they repent and obviously not in 1948. You failed to offer ONE verse where it says otherwise when talking about when HE brings them back in that day. They are not at peace now. Their enemies have not been destroyed etc etc etc etc etc etc etc. Why offer Eze 38,or 39 when you cannot show one verse in there that has ANYTHING to do with 1948 of God having brought them to Israel already? Why waste post after post saying nothing to support your claims, yet pretending the bible supports them?

[dad2]

44 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

Yeah,  why waste post after post.  You have not provided one scripture that supports what you say.   Not one.   Good bye...

All future prophesies regarding the time God restores Israel have nothing to do with 1948 that you have shown. You have not one single verse. When confronted on some chapters you throw out pretending they somehow support you (like eze 38 and 39) you fail to show one single verse in the chapters that support your position. Really.

[dad2]

41 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

Absolutely!  Now it's up to you to show us what is so "obvious".

...obviously after they repent and obviously not in 1948. 

 Let's look at ANY verse that prophesies about when Israel is restored then. 

Jeremiah 30:10-11 ESV / 3 helpful votes

 

“Then fear not, O Jacob my servant, declares the Lord, nor be dismayed, O Israel; for behold, I will save you from far away, and your offspring from the land of their captivity. Jacob shall return and have quiet and ease, and none shall make him afraid. For I am with you to save you, declares the Lord; I will make a full end of all the nations among whom I scattered you, but of you I will not make a full end. I will discipline you in just measure, and I will by no means leave you unpunished.

There is no time yet that no one made them afraid! No full end of all nations either. There is anything BUT quiet and ease there since 1948. Nor do we see Jesus ruling there..etc. So OBVIOUSLY God has not restored them yet.