What is a Faith vs Works Mindset?

[Hopefully]

I was just reading and a question  came to my mind. How can a person know they are operating off of a faith and not works mindset.

 I then thought we could take a sin we have repented and think about it. I came up with:

If you think about that repented sin and the memory of it brings a smile to your face and you’d actually like to do it again, but you have the willpower not to so you won’t go to hell this is a works mindset.

If you think about that repented sin and feel disgusted, ashamed, angry, or having thoughts like how could I ever do that this is a faith mindset.

 The topic of faith vs works gets confusing because faith causes works.

I gave my examples above, but what would you say to people to make sure they are operating off of a faith  and not works mindset in all areas of their lives? 

[enoob57]

I believe it is to understand where your reliance is placed (God’s Word or God’s created elements)… absolutely all aspects of this first heaven and earth is going to be removed from all memory:

Isaiah 65:17 (KJV) [17] ¶ For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
1 Corinthians 13:8 (KJV) [8] Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
Revelation 21:1-5 (KJV) [1] And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
[2] And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
[3] And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
[4] And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
[5] And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
So we know that which is of eternal significance to The Lord will not end thus God’s declaration I make all things new (above) all that was before will no longer be kept (works would be totally in that reality)…

[Michael37]

5 hours ago, Hopefully said:

I was just reading and a question  came to my mind. How can a person know they are operating off of a faith and not works mindset.

 I then thought we could take a sin we have repented and think about it. I came up with:

If you think about that repented sin and the memory of it brings a smile to your face and you’d actually like to do it again, but you have the willpower not to so you won’t go to hell this is a works mindset.

If you think about that repented sin and feel disgusted, ashamed, angry, or having thoughts like how could I ever do that this is a faith mindset.

 The topic of faith vs works gets confusing because faith causes works.

I gave my examples above, but what would you say to people to make sure they are operating off of a faith  and not works mindset in all areas of their lives? 

The source of faith is the Word of God, and while faith without works is dead, works without faith are futile, so faith toward God and repentance from dead works are continually the foundation that Christians are to build on. (See Hebrews 6:1)

Sure there is pleasure in sin for a season, but the wages of sin is death so that puts a damper on it.

[BK1110]

Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.  -- Philippians 3:8-14

The context of this, if you read the rest of the passage that preceded it, Paul is talking about how he was a Jew of Jews, kept the law better than anyone, was a Pharisee, etc. If anyone was going to heaven based on works, it was him. But he counted all of that, all of those works that he had to his credit, as rubbish compared to Christ. That's a recognition that, no matter how good, no matter what works, it's all garbage without faith in Christ.

Of course, he then immediately follow it up with verses about how he hasn't obtained it yet, and that he presses on (works harder) to obtain it! The key part is the "because Christ Jesus has made me his own." Instead of his works coming from a place of trying to save himself, they now come from a place of joy and gratitude that Christ has already saved him. But if someone is not really saved, they will not feel that joy, that gratitude. They will simply want to continue living in all their sins. They will have no desire to forget what lies behind and strain forward to what lies ahead, because they love what lies behind.

[BK1110]

It just so happens that my daily study, which I've just finished, was on that very passage I just quoted! Funny how that works.

The title of the study video is "Philippians 3:11–14 // Can I Really Have Assurance?" on the DesiringGod channel on Youtube. You might want to give it a watch.

[Your closest friendnt]

2 hours ago, BK1110 said:

Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.  -- Philippians 3:8-14

The context of this, if you read the rest of the passage that preceded it, Paul is talking about how he was a Jew of Jews, kept the law better than anyone, was a Pharisee, etc. If anyone was going to heaven based on works, it was him. But he counted all of that, all of those works that he had to his credit, as rubbish compared to Christ. That's a recognition that, no matter how good, no matter what works, it's all garbage without faith in Christ.

Of course, he then immediately follow it up with verses about how he hasn't obtained it yet, and that he presses on (works harder) to obtain it! The key part is the "because Christ Jesus has made me his own." Instead of his works coming from a place of trying to save himself, they now come from a place of joy and gratitude that Christ has already saved him. But if someone is not really saved, they will not feel that joy, that gratitude. They will simply want to continue living in all their sins. They will have no desire to forget what lies behind and strain forward to what lies ahead, because they love what lies behind.

I do not think so that Paul would agree with you wholeheartedly, because you have not ask your self when you read the work of someone else " what does he mean with that? .

" that he counts everything for nothing even using the common word they were using that time to emphasize.  

Everything Paul list in that list was "painfully"gain through out many years of study and they had produce the fruit of Paul having attained the righteousness of the Law not only blinding following those who knew but by himself knowing why he does what he has to do as it was set up in their religious Calendar and the book of God known as the Law of Moses. 

Paul said those things not to devalue the importance of what he had learn through out the years but to emphasize that he has come to understand that there is another righteousness which is greater than the righteousness through the obedience to the Law 

The righteousness of God in Jesus Christ by DEFAULT upon everyone who believes in Jesus Christ. 

Paul was able to follow that statement by narrating who Jesus Christ was and is and how he is the fulfillment of all the prophecies on the book of the Law and the Psalms and the prophets including Isaiah, the prophetic about the Messiah the Christ of God. 

Paul he could explain why Jesus the Messiah the Christ of God had to die on the Cross and what happened at the time when Jesus Christ died on the Cross. 

When someone understands what happened when Jesus Christ died on the Cross, then he can understands Paul who said that the moment we believe that and the reason why instantly we are in the righteousness of Jesus Christ so we cannot get lost the way Adam and Eve were lost. 

Paul he never said he tries to attend the righteousness of Jesus Christ by his own obedience to him.

He said something else that he tries to grow in what Jesus Christ is reveling to him as he guides him, and he said that this is an never ending path. Paul confess that he is walking in that path because Jesus Christ is telling him that he is because he keeps correcting him so he can remained in the path he has for him and not to be wandering at times in the path of his own.

Which Paul admits that at times is happening to him, and he cannot help it at times but Jesus Christ keeps him in the right path and he does not forget that he already have the righteousness of Jesus Christ when he first believed.  

 

Edited September 9, 2021 by Your closest friendnt

[BK1110]

19 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Paul said those things not to devalue the importance of what he had learn through out the years but to emphasize that he has come to understand that there is another righteousness which is greater than the righteousness through the obedience to the Law 

The righteousness of God in Jesus Christ by DEFAULT upon everyone who believes in Jesus Christ.

To the first point, I do not mean to say that it is meaningless to try to do good or that his good deeds had no value before one is saved, but only that they cannot save you, and compared to Christ they are rubbish, which Paul himself says.

To the second point, indeed it is. But the point is that we don't stop there. If we do, if we say "now I'm saved so I can live however I want," we prove that we were not, in fact, saved at all.

[Your closest friendnt]

33 minutes ago, BK1110 said:

To the first point, I do not mean to say that it is meaningless to try to do good or that his good deeds had no value before one is saved, but only that they cannot save you, and compared to Christ they are rubbish, which Paul himself says.

To the second point, indeed it is. But the point is that we don't stop there. If we do, if we say "now I'm saved so I can live however I want," we prove that we were not, in fact, saved at all.

Scripture please if you may. 

[BK1110]

5 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Scripture please if you may. 

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all have knowledge. -- 1 John 2:19-20

“I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned." -- John 15:1-6

More info https://www.gty.org/library/questions/QA145/what-kind-of-things-do-and-do-not-prove-the-genuineness-of-saving-faith

[Your closest friendnt]

20 hours ago, BK1110 said:

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all have knowledge. -- 1 John 2:19-20

“I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned." 

My request was not for any scripture but for scriptures that supported your position as in your previous post.

On 9/9/2021 at 4:06 PM, BK1110 said:

To the second point, indeed it is. But the point is that we don't stop there. If we do, if we say "now I'm saved so I can live however I want," we prove that we were not, in fact, saved at all.

The issue you raised is if someone who is saved and does not submit to the instructions of the elders to seek to be like minded with them....

He can not be a role model of a Christian. 

Because people do not see the power of God working in him.

For that reason we may conclude that he was never saved. 

***the scripture in 1st John ch 2 and v.19, 20 it does not and cannot support your position in this matter.

John is referring to some people who left their fellowship. 

He says that one time they were with them....this is not clear as to what took place the time they were with them, and it is not clear what their background was and whether they were seekers or they were there because they wanted to find out about them.

We do not have any information about them.

Were they believers? 

What was their nationality? 

Was it a leadership despite? 

Complaining about something, not being happy about something. 

Or was something doctrinal...or a more serious matter about Jesus divinity.

Or about water baptism or the Holy Spirit gifts. 

Or some interpretation of the Cross of Jesus Christ or his resurrection or questioning a theological position? 

John is not telling us why they left their fellowship. 

Was it to start their own fellowship? 

Was it because they did not accept something that effects their Salvation that they could not adhere to something as the like that Jesus Christ was coming back as John was preaching.

And eschatology matters.

***The description of the person in your post reference an individual who does not submit to the elders in a way of their instructions of how he should live his life.  

It not specific about something in particular that can get be discussed is very general....and unspecific.

Even if it has to do something about a sin it does not name the sin.

All sins are not the same weight and maybe is not even a sin but something percieved as sin from their doctrine....

First John 2:19, 20. Is not and cannot support your position. 

I am wondering as to why you have just posted some scriptures without giving some argument as to why you think it justifies your position taken. 

And that you are not in error. 

You are not giving any scripture that say " by observing how someone lives we can tell if he is saved or not.

This will need the works to be included in the righteousness of Jesus Christ by faith in his death on the Cross for the forgiveness of our sins.