social psychology Psychology – A Warning

[Kelly2363]

57 minutes ago, Josheb said:

There are some corrections warranted because a number of mistakes exist in this op beginning but not limited to the belief psychoogy begins with man and begins with the Greek philosophers. This is the way secularists think about the science of psychology. It's the way they think about all the sciences and scientific endeavors. So, Kelly, right from the very beginning you (and whoever your sources were) have bought into a secularized version of something that begins with God, not man. 

You would not say the same things about engineering, biology, physics or any of the other sciences so do not teach Christians to have contempt for psychology. Like anything and everything else it can be corrupted and misused by sinners but that does not mean psychology is thoroughly a man-made device. 

The op is way to long for me to go through it line by line so here are just a few of its problems warranting correction: 

 

• Psychological understanding is good for the spiritual man, too. Properly speaking the human being is not made up of three separate and distinct parts, the body, the soul, and the spirit, the human is body, soul, and spirit and to remove one from the other causes the whole to cease to exist. The opening lines of this op are an insinuated abuse of 1 Cor. 2:14 in reverse. The spiritual man understands both the natural and the spiritual; the natural man does not and cannot understand the spiritual. Nothing wrong with nature. Nothing wrong with God's design of humanity. Nothing wrong with studying God's designs. Everything wrong with abusing that study as many within and outside psychology do. 
• The sentence that reads, "The subject and application of psychology as social psychology, emphatically represents a union between men and the prince of the power of the air," and the lines that follow it are just lies straight out of the pits of hell. Just think about this sentence if any other science were substituted for psychology: "The subject and application of psychology as social biology, emphatically represents a union between men and the prince of the power of the air". This is the kind of nonsense that led men to believe illness was caused by an imbalance of the for humours and flies are spontaneously generated from steak. It is also the kind of thinking that as I just noted in point 1 that can only come from denying God as the basis for all human scientific endeavors. It is a godless attempt to argue for a inherent godlessness of something deeply rooted in God, not human or demons. 
• As far as the author's personal anecdotal experience goes, that is all it is: his personal anecdotal experience and not something representative of all of psychology. I am going to present another view and if it boils down to my view versus his view then we both failed the readers. 
• As far as anecdotal experience goes I started out studying social psychology, sociology, and anthropology at secular state universities that were staffed with a few Nobel Laureates and my experience as a Christian was mixed. Several of my professors were Christians, some of them former clergy. Alternatively, some of my professors were raging antitheists and on at least one occasion one of them was forced to meet with a dean because of his treatment of others. I moved to a Christian university to finish my graduate studies and there I had twice as many books as I had at any of the secular state universities, Literally. Literally twice as much reading. For every secular textbook we had to read there was an accompanying textbook written by Christian authors and all of it was discussed in small classrooms where every belief and thought was rigorously examined because they do not want bigots and/or educated people with strongholds doing counseling. They don't want people with pre-existing biases getting their fingers in the broken souls of others. Every semester I saw someone get "invited to explore other options".  Every counselor has to go through the process him/herself and most have done so long before they got to graduate school. We are constantly examined for many years. You can be crazy and get a degree in engineering. You can be crazy and get a degree in biology, pr physics but you cannot be crazy and get a degree in psychology. And every single class had every single student's faith examined. You want to know how and why I'm so articulate? Then thank a Christian university that demanded you have a scripturally rational case for what you believe. Some of the professors with whom I studied and those who wrote the Christian textbooks we used are some of the leading psychologists in America, recognized by both secularists and Christians as such. So, Kelly, if you were studying with secular humanists then you've got no one but yourself to blame. 
• As I stated the science of psychology did not start with the Greco-Romans. The formalization of the study of human behavior may have begun with the Greeks but that is not the same thing as saying that is where psychology started. From the very beginning of scripture we have an exposition of human psychology. It just does not come with flashing neon signs saying, "Look! Psychology! Psychology! Pay attention because there's psychology going on here!!!" From the beginning of Eve's internal dialogue to Adam's scapegoating denial and their son's murderous intent we have psychology and it is deeply intertwine spirituality and soulishness that begets real action. real observable, measurable action. And this is true whether the Genesis account is taken literally or allegorically. 
• "Behavioural psychology believes that what is true for a dog is just as true for a man." I'll let that speak for itself because it is prima facie false and it's the kind of statement that should be supported by authoritative documentation (not personal opinion). 
• As far as "fruit" goes, I have a successful practice and a good reputation among clients and peers and I routinely interact with academia. I do the same with clergy of enormous theological diversity and remain held in high esteem. There isn't a single day I don't help others improve their lives in ways desirable by most Christians (I was going to say "enviable" but we all know the critics are just looking for reasons to criticize). I dare you to bear that kind of fruit,  Kelly. When you readers go to worship services on Sunday (or Saturday) look around you because at least a third of those people have been in counseling and half of those who are married have committed adultery. Secular statistics on treating adultery say the short-term success of couple's counseling treating adultery is only 35%. Long-term success is 15%. Those are egregiously bad success rates so I started keeping track. I've worked with over 400 adulterous couples and 84% of them still have their marriage..... now adultery free. I dare you to bear that kind of fruit for God, Kelly. 
• There's much, much more I could say but I've already committed a wall of text. Fundamentally at the bottom of this op is a presupposition that was ignored in the op. This presupposition says there is a place in creation where God does not reign. Alongside this lie is the belief Christians should not serve God in an authoritative manner in this field. When the sciences of biology, zoology, cosmology, etc. were in their fledgling states they got a lot wrong. No one in modernity thinks the way they did 10,000 years ago and the simple, oft-denied fact of science is replace much of what it hold true about every 150 years. The same is true of psychology. Freud is gone. So too are Plato and Aristotle.

 

Many times have I commended an op. This one should be deleted. It is godless from beginning to end. 

"As a man thinketh, so he is."

"A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of."

 

And all one need do to consider the veracity and efficacy is consider what kind of a person would post such dross. Psychology is like theology: we all do it whether we know it or not, even if we deny doing so and disdain those who study it. Ops like this prey upon the spiritually/scripturally and scientifically uninformed.

 

 

I expected nothing less from you Josh. But as usual you jump the gun and miss what is being said. It's an introduction and it is a qualified introduction not an emphatic statement. It is qualified to an end. But please don't feel any need to reply. I knew you would be offended - that's just the way of it.

You said:

Many times have I commended an op. This one should be deleted. It is godless from beginning to end.

I neither seek your commendation nor do you have authority to delete anything Josh. 

But you can answer just one pesky question. Was Adam naked when he hid himself from God?

 

Edited October 12, 2021 by Kelly2363
Added Question

[Kelly2363]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

Psychological understanding is good for the spiritual man, too.

 

Extract: The Darkest Hour
Copyright © Robert Chisholm 1986, 2011, 2017 All Rights Reserved

Psychology & Physiology

It is important to realise that no study in psychology will of itself produce the necessary understanding that gives rise to a conviction of sin. The purpose here, therefore, is not to replace the working of the Holy Spirit; it is rather to facilitate an understanding that the very physical body is ruined because of sin and death. The mind, which is a function of the soul, is weakened. In this fallen condition the emotions of the mind are experienced in the physical body itself. They are essentially imprisoned by the physical body. Indeed this could be said for the soul itself and not simply the seat of emotion. The genetic material which all men and women share is ruined, and while it is still possible to restrain the outer man by physical means, it is not possible to repair the genetic man by conduct arising from that fallen condition. It took another kind of man altogether, one without sin and death working in Him to answer that profound problem. “So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body; it is raised an imperishable body; it is sown in dishonour it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So also it is written, “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.” (1 Cor 15:42-47)

Trusting emotions based in physical experience is the most common basis for deception. In this scheme, physical means especially the eyes, the ears and the inner physiology of the central nervous system, forming a basis for believing what is seen or heard with no more justification than experiencing the body itself. Deception is no less profound in its outworking towards others than through the body itself. My assertion is that in this day in which we live Satan is specifically seeking to make the emotional (physical) experience the basis for knowing what truth is. This is not only a matter of pseudo faith as a mechanism for achieving false conversions, but it is a very real danger for the one who is born again if we are not taught to deny ourselves daily.

With these things in mind, therefore, we can ask, what physical fear is? A simple physical schematic for describing fear may be as follows.

Auditory, visual and olfactory, stimuli are relayed by the Thalamus to the Amygdala and Cerebral Cortex. The Amygdala also receives contextual information from the Hippocampus. After processing of the emotional stimuli, the central nucleus of the Amygdala activates the nucleus of the Pons which triggers a noradrenaline response as well as stimulating the Hypothalamic nuclei. The stria terminalis (brainstem) or the extended Amygdala also acts as a control centre for the noradrenaline uptake response by integrating information from both the Amygdala itself as well as the Hippocampus. The central nucleus of the Amygdala is responsible for activating the Vagus Nerve in the Medulla (characteristically increased heart rate and raised blood pressure), In finality, the Frontal Cortex formulates cognitive responses which serve to modulate ongoing physiological responses. (Fight, Flight or Paralysis).

In this physical description of the principle parts of the Nervous System, involved in fear, we may realise very quickly that it is necessary to have a link between that which is physical and that which is psychical (soul). We cannot ignore the fact that Adam himself knew that he had disobeyed God at the moment he heard God in the garden. This knowledge also forms part of who Adam was. He clearly wasn’t simply a physical man. He was a living soul as well. Clearly, emotions are experienced in the body, yet they are perceived as being of the soul itself in the mind. In fact, the seat of emotion is said to be of the soul. If the seat of emotion is of the soul and yet emotions are experienced in the body, what is the soul? This question is beyond science. In the ordinary iterative model of science fact, there is no possibility of proving that the soul even exists. Yet the very least thing which all men and women comprehend is that they do in fact exist distinct to the body. For those who believe in God and Christ, not only do we know that we exist as sentient beings, but we comprehend that we are eternal souls as well.

It is psychology and philosophy which endeavour to answer those questions outside a biblical account.. In looking at the physical explanation of fear, we can rationalise that from seeing, hearing or smelling something, a physical process ensues which in the end results in a behavioural outcome. In the case of Adam, it was hearing God in the garden that produced both psychological and physical fear as well as the corresponding behaviour (flight). “Then the Lord God called to the man, and said to him, “Where are you?” He said, “I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid myself.”” (Genesis 3:9–10)

It is certain that Adam and Eve knew that they had disobeyed God, and therefore even before God called out to them they had this understanding in their minds. In basic psychological parlance this is called anticipation and forms a pre- experiential basis for explaining why fear occurs. It is a blind use of the idea of stimulus and response. In other fields of psychology, Adam and Eve’s fear would be said to be no more than the sum of chemical responses to external stimuli. In this view learned behaviour arises from evolved physiological mechanisms, and amounts to no more than a survival response. Although it may seem implausible, most psychological theories would ignore disobedience, and instead emphasise acquired knowledge, as a positive step forward in evolutionary development. I have to say that such a view is Satanic. And herein lies a serious problem with psychology in general. At its root is a denial of the existence of God, and the whole of its concern is pathological, in the sense that modern psychology is concerned with developmental or learned experience, and not with original causality.

In the world of neurology, the concern is with disorders of the nervous system, both central as well as peripheral, including all visceral elements of the sympathetic, parasympathetic, enteric as well muscle systems. The neurologist can opine (give an opinion) on psychiatry, and due to the neurophysiological emphasis of neurology, much of the research that informs psychobiology feeds into generalised psychology and psychoanalytical theories. It is for this reason principally that psychology is limited and eclectic.

These two strands of knowledge are always in tension with one another. In Europe the emphasis is still in favour of psychoanalytical models of behaviour and in North America Object Oriented psychology has been embraced in favour of the latter in recent years. So while I have said earlier that psychology is a better medium through which to understand neurophysiology and psychophysiology, there is no direct, simple school of thought in psychology itself which makes this task easy or clear. The best which one can do is to identify that all aberrant behaviour carries consequences, and through those consequences, something is learned. Yet in the case of Adam what he experienced, was that sin itself had made a separation between himself and God. He knew that when he disobeyed God, he was disobeying God. He was under a strict command and disobeyed. He was not deceived at that moment. Adam must have had this in mind, as well as the realisation that he was naked as he spent those few hours in the garden knowing that God would come to fellowship with him in the evening.

The profound thing about this account of Adam lies in the fact that there is no explanation given, or attention drawn to his disobedience as a consequence, beyond the knowledge which was acquired through disobedience (chiefly that he was naked and felt ashamed). Until God came into the garden, we know nothing of any other effect in Adam’s mind beyond this knowledge. Only when God called is there an effect that goes beyond the knowledge that was already gained. We know this because Adam was not naked at that moment of hearing God call to him. He had in fact covered his nakedness with an apron of leaves. Nothing is said about whether Adam was anxious (fearful) about his next meeting with God. Yet the moment that opportunity presented itself he experienced in his own body physical fear, and understood this to be connected to his newly acquired knowledge, that he was naked underneath his apron. This knowledge was more than the first realisation of being naked when he sinned. It amounted to a development in his experience, in so far as now in a possible face to face encounter with God, fear races through his body to his mind, and he is compelled to hide. This is the central tenet of learned behaviour.

Copyright © Robert Chisholm 1986, 2011, 2017 All Rights Reserved

Because you're worth it! 

[Kelly2363]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

• As far as the author's personal anecdotal experience goes, that is all it is: his personal anecdotal experience and not something representative of all of psychology. I am going to present another view and if it boils down to my view versus his view then we both failed the readers. 
• As far as anecdotal experience goes I started out studying social

 

Extract: The Darkest Hour 
Copyright © Robert Chisholm 1986, 2011, 2017 All Rights Reserved

An Easy Deception

One would be quite justified in asking how it has become possible for the churches to take this apostate route with such ease at this time, compared with the huge struggles that characterised apostasy in the early church of the 3rd and 4th centuries. My own understanding, and a part explanation, presently lies in two primary fields of human endeavour. They are Philosophy and Psychology. Many younger psychologists, psychotherapists and councillors are concerned by the separation which took place in the late 19th century between the original study of the soul (psychology) and Philosophy. The claim is that the study of the soul was broader in the past than it is today. While I agree with the thrust of the statement, those who suffer from this abstract nostalgia have apparently missed the great weight of philosophical knowledge that has informed psychoanalytical thinking, almost from its inception.

The scientific model was primarily responsible for this change in emphasis, from fuller questions about the human psyche to the eventual narrower focus on the mind, with the attendant neurology. The need for observable evidence of the soul, as defined by the iterative scientific model was demanded by serious scholars and in the absence of proof, psychology, or the study of the soul, turned to that which could be outwardly measured and therefore proven. This change eventually led to the beginnings of what is today called behavioural psychology. This change of emphasis has never been reconciled with the original broader meaning of the study of the soul in ancient cultures as well as previous generations, where the rational philosophical roots of psychology are said to lie. Nevertheless it has served to facilitate the justification of self as the primary agent of benefit.

Over the last 100 years, behaviourism or behavioural psychology developed into a major system of thinking, along with Cognitive Psychology more recently. Both are firmly grounded in the scientific model and have contributed to significant changes in the way societies behave. At the same time (1900-1950) as behaviourism developed into a dominant model, psychotherapy also came to maturity. It has been psychoanalytical models of behaviour, however, that have been responsible for introducing a vast range of Eastern philosophical and occult thinking into the West by synthesising neurological, subjective observational and atheistic thought into theoretical frameworks; thereby giving rise to complex theories of behaviour. In the early years, the application of these ideas were mostly limited experiments on men and women who presented with psychological disturbance, as well as children, and to some extent, they were developed in the treatment of those who could meet the cost privately.

Through time, strands of pure subjective theoretical reasoning, laid against known occult as well as philosophical filters, were even incorporated into the most scientific field of behavioural and cognitive psychology, such as in Constructivism with its self-oriented cognitive learned process model. Today this mix of religious deception and scientific observation is scarcely separated in the minds of even trained psychologists themselves. It would take a vast knowledge of ancient Eastern philosophy, ancient Greek philosophy, shamanism, anthropology, anatomy and theology to make a meaningful distinction between what is real, and represents deception, and what is real, and accounts for a logical way of understanding behaviour in the context of mental illness. In fact, the distinction is more than likely impossible. It is only in the context of having a genuine and sound conversion, and a living faith in Christ Jesus, as well as a love of the truth, that one would be able to recognise lies and deception when these theories are being taught and presented to new students.

Homogeneity

Those believers, who so freely embrace the world in which we live, do not necessarily realise that societies have been fundamentally influenced by social as well as public health initiatives, which have been informed by an increasingly competent methodological scientific technique, where many occult and mystical deceptions, which had their roots in ancient societies, are incorporated into the very fabric of the underlying paradigms which form the basis for interpreting the data upon which those psychological and sociopsychological imperatives were written. Sociology, Politics, Philosophy, Anthropology, Finance, Theology, Social Policy, Health Policy, Criminology, Education, Gender, Conflict Theories of labour, and a range of others areas of societal influence on the individual, have all been increasingly informed by psychology, indirectly or else directly, over the last 100 years. Today, we scarcely realise just how much society has changed.

In my view while there is no doubt that psychology presents some valid and useful mechanisms for understanding the behaviour of those individuals who have good reason to be thought of as in need of help, that help could have just as easily been given with an exercise in compassion and decency, than by a means which simultaneously excuses sinful and rebellious behaviour, or else robbed the individual of any perception of absolute morality. An essential fuel for the rebellious mind is no longer hunger, or a lack of love by others, or else the cold, but has become the belief that your own rebellious actions are justified in the sight of others. If others justify your rebellion then you yourself are free to embrace the natural heart as a reasonable and desirable inheritance with its wicked and deceitful inclinations.

A sorcerous mind is that mind which embraces in its most ruined state. the ambition and hope that at the end of its efforts it will realise a true and full consciousness, and by an existential path arrive at a perfect self. It is a mind that cannot conceive of God as He truly is, yet intuitively knows that such an account exists. In that ruined state the sorcerous mind therefore necessarily rejects God Himself and instead lays hold of creation. It is a mind that cannot know that the soul is not the spirit and thus seeing nothing of spiritual reality, the sorcerous mind lays hold of the only reality that it can conceive of, and therefore lays hold of the body itself. In this wicked and deceived condition the sorcerous mind conceives of spiritual reality as no more than elements scattered to an infinite place wherein that mind presses itself in a false hope. In the end, the sorcerous mind lays hold of itself in an embrace that amounts to the determination and ambition of Satan who makes of men, souls and bodies his commodity.

Copyright © Robert Chisholm 1986, 2011, 2017 All Rights Reserved

Because you're worth it! 

[Kelly2363]

21 hours ago, anynmsfmly said:

Ok, Well let me offer you a moment to not shut up. This is what we call, "The Peer Support System,",....................... In short, "My illness is less severe than yours, Or I was able to recover, So you should, too,",................,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Is this correct, Or do I have this wrong ?..............,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

What is called "The Peer Support System"? 

Edited October 12, 2021 by Kelly2363

[David1701]

On 10/11/2021 at 7:31 PM, Kelly2363 said:

This following is the neurophysiological schematic for the fight or flight mechanism in man. 

Auditory, visual and olfactory, stimuli are relayed by the Thalamus to the Amygdala and Cerebral Cortex. The Amygdala also receives contextual information from the Hippocampus. After processing of the emotional stimuli, the central nucleus of the Amygdala activates the nucleus of the Pons which triggers a noradrenaline response as well as stimulating the Hypothalamic nuclei. The stria terminalis (brainstem) or the extended Amygdala also acts as a control centre for the noradrenaline uptake response by integrating information from both the Amygdala itself as well as the Hippocampus. The central nucleus of the Amygdala is responsible for activating the Vagus Nerve in the Medulla (characteristically increased heart rate and raised blood pressure), In finality, the Frontal Cortex formulates cognitive responses which serve to modulate ongoing physiological responses.

Fight, Fight or Paralysis

It is taken from page 142 of a book I wrote called Deepening Shadows. 

So I have asked was Adam naked when he hid. (Flight)

That question has to do with a psychophysiological reality that is evidenced in Adam when he said I was afraid. Its not one thread of an answer but numerous threads that need to be drawn if one is going to explain why psychology is a worthless endeavour in Christian Ministry and hence a - WARNING

 

Or, more briefly, the physical mechanisms of Adam's fear response, were not the source.

[Kelly2363]

1 minute ago, David1701 said:

Or, more briefly, the physical mechanisms of Adam's fear response, were not the source.

 

Precisely so. 

[Kelly2363]

1 hour ago, David1701 said:

Or, more briefly, the physical mechanisms of Adam's fear response, were not the source.

 

The neurology and pathology were all there when Adam was innocent. And yet after he sinned not only did he suffer the removal of God's glory {to use your perception) that also exposed him to a dependance on physical domains, but he also no longer had a means to settle his mind when he experienced fear. That precept is the precept that the sister alluded to when she posted the comment in which she spoke about The Insanity of Normality by Arno Gruen. His file was psychoanalytical theories and especially Fraud - it was whilst attending clinical lectures that I was astonished by Freudian theories and the demonic character of them. If I had not been personally in ministry evangelising at the time the Lord would not have had a way to teach me about the reality of fear through a spiritual glass in order to apply my own knowledge of how fear had driven me to exceptional ends and even into the occult. 

It was desiring to be loved that makes you vulnerable to being driven. 

Gruen's place in the history of psychology can be summarized as follows. According to Sigmund Freud, human beings are born with an innate tendency to destruction and violence; throughout his scholarly and clinical career, Prof. Gruen challenged that assumption, arguing instead that at the root of evil lies self-hatred, a rage originating in a self-betrayal that begins in childhood, when autonomy is surrendered in exchange for the "love" of those who wield power over us. Wikipedia

This kind of theorising is of course abstract - and my file was abstract theories in various psychological schools and in sociology. I knew even then that I was not going to find any answers in psychology or sociology that would be helpful for the church. So I set about to write a book trying to explain one simple premise that grounded the anatomical contract with the chemical and the physiological man. One commentator rebukes me and says I am speaking against God and another mocks when they ask if I am weighing one injury against another injury and saying my injury was worse and look at me. Such a mind would be the mind that Arno Gruen spoke about because it would be self loathing. Whereas what I know is that our deliverance is in Christ and a new man. 

In the end because this took place over a period of several decades it corresponded to the emergence of occult predications in the churches pertaining to the physical man which I had been a part of in Occult Theosophy before I was saved. So I extended my writings to cover that effect also. And here's the very truth - none of it is necessary if we would simply put our confidence in Christ and deny ourselves. 

What we now call psychology was not invented by God unless we mean the physical man and the natural mind - it was a work of the devil in ruining the mind of Adam so that he became a psychologically vulnerable creature. His son Abel is given to us in his countenance of anger to signal the second most prevalent emotional reality after fear. And the entire Scriptures are filled up with its proof. And not a mention of therapy anywhere. Just obedience unto death. What a God we serve. 

Edited October 12, 2021 by Kelly2363
Spelling

[David1701]

1 hour ago, Kelly2363 said:

 

The neurology and pathology were all there when Adam was innocent. And yet after he sinned not only did he suffer the removal of God's glory {to use your perception) that also exposed him to a dependance on physical domains, but he also no longer had a means to settle his mind when he experienced fear. That precept is the precept that the sister alluded to when she posted the comment in which she spoke about The Insanity of Normality by Arno Gruen. His file was psychoanalytical theories and especially Fraud - it was whilst attending clinical lectures that I was astonished by Freudian theories and the demonic character of them. If I had not been personally in ministry evangelising at the time the Lord would not have had a way to teach me about the reality of fear through a spiritual glass in order to apply my own knowledge of how fear had driven me to exceptional ends and even into the occult. 

It was desiring to be loved that makes you vulnerable to being driven. 

Gruen's place in the history of psychology can be summarized as follows. According to Sigmund Freud, human beings are born with an innate tendency to destruction and violence; throughout his scholarly and clinical career, Prof. Gruen challenged that assumption, arguing instead that at the root of evil lies self-hatred, a rage originating in a self-betrayal that begins in childhood, when autonomy is surrendered in exchange for the "love" of those who wield power over us. Wikipedia

This kind of theorising is of course abstract - and my file was abstract theories in various psychological schools and in sociology. I knew even then that I was not going to find any answers in psychology or sociology that would be helpful for the church. So I set about to write a book trying to explain one simple premise that grounded the anatomical contract with the chemical and the physiological man. One commentator rebukes me and says I am speaking against God and another mocks when they ask if I am weighing one injury against another injury and saying my injury was worse and look at me. Such a mind would be the mind that Arno Gruen spoke about because it would be self loathing. Whereas what I know is that our deliverance is in Christ and a new man. 

In the end because this took place over a period of several decades it corresponded to the emergence of occult predications in the churches pertaining to the physical man which I had been a part of in Occult Theosophy before I was saved. So I extended my writings to cover that effect also. And here's the very truth - none of it is necessary if we would simply put our confidence in Christ and deny ourselves. 

What we now call psychology was not invented by God unless we mean the physical man and the natural mind - it was a work of the devil in ruining the mind of Adam so that he became a psychologically vulnerable creature. His son Abel is given to us in his countenance of anger to signal the second most prevalent emotional reality after fear. And the entire Scriptures are filled up with its proof. And not a mention of therapy anywhere. Just obedience unto death. What a God we serve. 

 

Quote

Whereas what I know is that our deliverance is in Christ and a new man.

Quote

And here's the very truth - none of it is necessary if we would simply put our confidence in Christ and deny ourselves.

These two sentences are a good summary of the conclusion.

[Kelly2363]

2 hours ago, Josheb said:

Some of this was good. It was actually pleasurable to read some facts and truth when there is so much misinformation in this op. An understanding of the amygdala, prefrontal cortex and the vagus nerve system (it runs through the brain, down the neck, around the heart and further down into the gut) can prove quite crucial in helping people change. What is described in this post is also a basis for original sin: Adam and Eve were irrevocably changed in that moment of trauma at Genesis 3:6. 

However, there are five, not three basic states: fight, flight, freeze, submit, or engage. What this post and others are describing is the parasympathetic nervous system, but God also designed the sympathetic nervous system and it's the later that helps be relational, emotionally aware, and engaging with self and others. Psychology can in fact be enormously worthwhile in Christian Ministry, hence the folly of this error-laden "warning." 

Kelly, Justin, much of this stuff that's being posted and linked-to is antiquated (and incorrect). The Bobgans (for example) started ragging about psychology and Christian psychologists forty or more years ago and they've recycled the material every few years for profit. I read everything they wrote back when I was first getting into the field (along with other critical sources such as Leeuwen or Szasz). It's antiquated stuff. No one uses Freud anymore. Everything any modern critic might write built on criticisms of Freud is a red herring. For anyone interested, Jones and Butman are a much better resource. Sadly, many people who can be helped won't get help because they now fear and hate the boogeyman due to this op. 

The thalamus, amygdala, or cerebral cortex are not explicitly mentioned in the Bible but examples of sympathetic- and parasympathetic-driven behavior can be found throughout the scriptures. As I noted earlier, the Bible is not a textbook on biology, human physiology, or psychology but its pages are filled with truthful and helpful information to be used in the hands of well-trained and skilled individuals and there are many of us in Christianity that provide a godly alternative to the secularized versions represented and misrepresented in this op. 

 

I wrote the book from which the pathological and neurological schemata was taken. I linked to an extract from the book to make the point. Your prior comment was made somewhat abrasively when this NOW comment and the post reference were already visible in the OP. My name is Robert Chisholm and I neither practise psychology as clinically or applied science - but I did study psychology at University and attended clinical lectures in order to acquire the necessary theoretical knowledge to be able to write up a simple paragraph on the anatomy of fear. That anatomy hasn't changed since the day of Adam - and in medicine it has been around since the mid 19th century. What has developed is neurochemistry.

As to the Bobgan issue you raise with myself and @Justin Adams. I spoke with Martin by email in 2017 when I was updating my book and he read some of my work - but he pointed out to me that what I was doing was markedly different to what he was doing. The distinction being that he is addressing the prevalence of psycho heresies in the churches - I am addressing those same heresies in the world coming into the churches through broader social policy directives now expressed in legislative and statutory frameworks - as an effect giving release to occult sorcery amongst believers. I could NOT care less about psychology or any other therapeutic endeavour. People are free to make their own choices and pay whom they wish for whatever they wish. On that note and in defiance of your claim - Martin doesn't charge for his core material and it is freely available in downloadable PDF files through the site linked by Justin.

I don't bring my own work into the churches at all. It's far too technical and esoteric to introduce to the flock. I give it to those who are capable of resisting using it to control others. In the churches I just rebuke ungodliness on behalf of the pastors who are keen to feed the sheep. So they say "bad man" about the prophetic behind their hands and "dear brother" to the pastor who then feeds them. That suits me just fine. 

I was impressed by your point What is described in this post is also a basis for original sin: Adam and Eve were irrevocably changed in that moment of trauma at Genesis 3:6. 

That is an astute observation because it speaks about the psychological man without attributing a necessary misdirection to imply a changed physiology. Of course that would have to be qualified by epigenetic and other environmental factors - all of which are evident in the occult and in life. 

Edited October 13, 2021 by Kelly2363
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[Kelly2363]

18 minutes ago, Josheb said:

No but our knowledge and understanding of anatomy has changed enormously. Unblessedly, the wisdom of what to do with that knowledge and understanding has not kept pace and many abuse the knowledge. Holocausts, abortion, and the current debate in the field of genetics and cellular biology readily illustrate this. Christians are necessary but much of this op would cause Christians to eschew the field both as professionals and beneficiaries. 

 

What I said was:

"My name is Robert Chisholm and I neither practise psychology as clinically or applied science - but I did study psychology at University and attended clinical lectures in order to acquire the necessary theoretical knowledge to be able to write up a simple paragraph on the anatomy of fear. That anatomy hasn't changed since the day of Adam."

I did say as a qualification to the above was

That anatomy hasn't changed since the day of Adam - and in medicine it has been around since the mid 19th century. What has developed is neurochemistry.

What I did NOT say was that [all] knowledge of anatomy hadn't changed. The schemata I wrote is both an accurate account of the neurology and scheme of experiential fear.

Hence from the OP itself:

And herein lies a serious problem with psychology in general. At its root is a denial of the existence of God, and the whole of its concern is pathological, in the sense that modern psychology is concerned with developmental or learned experience, and not with original causality. In the world of neurology, the concern is with disorders of the nervous system, both central as well as peripheral, including all visceral elements of the sympathetic, parasympathetic, enteric as well muscle systems. The neurologist can opine (give an opinion) on psychiatry, and due to the neurophysiological emphasis of neurology, much of the research that informs psychobiology feeds into generalised psychology and psychoanalytical theories. It is for this reason principally that psychology is limited and eclectic.

My points are always qualified linguistically Josh and are rarely a simple matter of the narrative diction. They are almost always connected to a rational and transparent objective. And in this OP that is to do with secular psychological theories whether of the Maslow School or the Freudian School or any other more deterministic model of theorising - that are being imposed on the churches through numerous legislative frameworks - and where the worldy church is vulnerable to the very direction of societies generally that have been driven by social and psychosocial theories which cause unspeakable harm to millions of people - making the embrace of those theories much easier if they are reflective of the law of the land.

Stick to the OP Josh.