Who is the Little Horn of Daniel 8? Can this be linked with the Little Horn in Daniel 7?

[Selah7]

1 hour ago, adamjedgar said:

Only thing I wish to add Charlie (and this i feel is potentially going to destroy my own theology)...

Note what is says in 8:2

"Daniel spoke, saying, “I saw in my vision by night, and behold, the four winds of heaven were stirring up the Great Sea. 3And four great beasts came up from the sea,"

 

4 winds stirred up the sea...

 

I think that is important to make note of (I'm sure you and I both know why and where that may lead us when we get to the next chapter. DOH!!!)

 

Now i ask an important question...we need a explanation of what the 4 winds are that stir up the sea. What are they?

Hi, @adamjedgar
 

* Daniel spoke, saying, "I saw in my vision by night, and behold, the four winds of heaven were stirring up the Great Sea.   - Daniel 7:2 (NKJV) *

First and foremost, this is a vision "by darkness," which refers to the gloomy hour at the conclusion of this age.  Furthermore, the huge sea is not the Mediterranean or any other body of water, as some experts claim. The sea and rivers represent the earth's peoples, multitudes, countries, and tongues, according to the Book of Revelation, Daniel's sister book. 

This is confirmed in Rev. 17:15, which reads: 

* Then he said to me, "The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues.   - Revelation 17:15 (NKJV) *

The One World System, the political Beast of Revelation 13:1, rises from the sea of peoples and nations, etc., indicating that it is an earthly beast.

When the four winds are released, however, it signals the end of the earth's final events when the "little horn," that "vile person," the phony messiah and his angels, who are those ten toes and ten kings, are cast out of heaven and come to take over the reigns of world government, ushering in a time of trouble (spiritual, not physical) like there has never been since there was a nation.

S.

[truth7t7]

2 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

First, you went well passed Daniel 7.... straight to Revelation which almost EVERYONE does. Why jump to Revelation before one interprets Daniel.... Let Daniel interpret Daniel... God has given us 3 separate images in 2,7 and 8 to triangulate and identify the 4 kingdoms. 

Today's interpretations of Revelation are partially based on misinterpretations from Daniel. And much of today's interpretations of Daniel are grossly misinterpretations.

Take for example the 'he' in 9:27. I would guess that maybe 85 % of Christians believe this represents the AC. And that interpretation has GROSSLY affected Revelation.  So, if one were to ask me why THEIR Revelation interpretation (based on this AC interpretation) does not agree with one of my interpretations which treats 'he' as 'HE', you can see it is apples and oranges. There can be no reconciliation - that is why I constantly suggest we stay within the chapter (this case 7) to interpret it without any interpretations already sent to Revelation .

No Charlie the "he" in Daniel 9:27 isnt Jesus Christ as you have stated previously, Jesus dosent make abomination and desolation

I respectfully disagree, this figure is the (Little Horn) The Beast

This "Future" figure will be present on earth making (Abomination & Desolation) to the (Consummation) or (The Ultimate End) "Future" Event(s) Unfulfilled

Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation

1: the act of consummating the consummation of a contract by mutual signature specifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

Edited December 28, 2021 by truth7t7

[Charlie744]

2 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

 

Sorry Adam, I was past the first 2 verses.... 

2Daniel spoke, saying, “I saw in my vision by night, and behold, the four winds of heaven were stirring up the Great Sea. 3And four great beasts came up from the sea, each different from the other. 4The first was like a lion, and had eagle’s wings.

If I am correct, the 4 winds of heaven is NOT an uncommon phrase in the Scriptures and conveys the 4 corners of the world... N, S, E, W kind of thing. Sea equates to peoples of all nations, languages, etc.,

Therefore, out of the known world, from all nations, etc., there will come 4 kingdoms....

Is this causing you a concern .. please let me understand how you are seeing this.. thanks, Charlie

Adam, by the way, and I am sure you have noticed this... this speaks directly to the Daniel 8:8--- Daniel specifically identifies in ORDER,  the broken king (AG), the 4 notable ones (4 generals) and then towards the 4 winds.... (Daniel 2)

[adamjedgar]

8 minutes ago, Selah7 said:

Hi, @adamjedgar
 

* Daniel spoke, saying, "I saw in my vision by night, and behold, the four winds of heaven were stirring up the Great Sea.   - Daniel 7:2 (NKJV) *

First and foremost, this is a vision "by darkness," which refers to the gloomy hour at the conclusion of this age.  Furthermore, the huge sea is not the Mediterranean or any other body of water, as some experts claim. The sea and rivers represent the earth's peoples, multitudes, countries, and tongues, according to the Book of Revelation, Daniel's sister book. 

This is confirmed in Rev. 17:15, which reads: 

* Then he said to me, "The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues.   - Revelation 17:15 (NKJV) *

The One World System, the political Beast of Revelation 13:1, rises from the sea of peoples and nations, etc., indicating that it is an earthly beast.

When the four winds are released, however, it signals the end of the earth's final events when the "little horn," that "vile person," the phony messiah and his angels, who are those ten toes and ten kings, are cast out of heaven and come to take over the reigns of world government, ushering in a time of trouble (spiritual, not physical) like there has never been since there was a nation.

S.

Woah that's jumping way ahead...I think your interpretation is quite good though.

I am trying not to jump that far ahead...just staying close to Daniel 7.

I make note of the fact his vision was in the night...not sure if we can draw anything from that?

[Charlie744]

8 minutes ago, Selah7 said:

Hi, @adamjedgar
 

* Daniel spoke, saying, "I saw in my vision by night, and behold, the four winds of heaven were stirring up the Great Sea.   - Daniel 7:2 (NKJV) *

First and foremost, this is a vision "by darkness," which refers to the gloomy hour at the conclusion of this age.  Furthermore, the huge sea is not the Mediterranean or any other body of water, as some experts claim. The sea and rivers represent the earth's peoples, multitudes, countries, and tongues, according to the Book of Revelation, Daniel's sister book. 

This is confirmed in Rev. 17:15, which reads: 

* Then he said to me, "The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues.   - Revelation 17:15 (NKJV) *

The One World System, the political Beast of Revelation 13:1, rises from the sea of peoples and nations, etc., indicating that it is an earthly beast.

When the four winds are released, however, it signals the end of the earth's final events when the "little horn," that "vile person," the phony messiah and his angels, who are those ten toes and ten kings, are cast out of heaven and come to take over the reigns of world government, ushering in a time of trouble (spiritual, not physical) like there has never been since there was a nation.

S.

Thank you for your thoughts... and unfortunately, I can not begin to comment on Revelation since I am attempting to complete Daniel.... but I can tell you one thing (even though I will most likely lose any credibility I MAY have left - the 10 toes had to exist at the time of Christ and will continue to the end of time just as the little horn AND the beast will have to do.... so sorry I can divulge that at this time... Charlie 

[Charlie744]

6 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

No Charlie the "he" in Danile 9:27 isnt Jesus Christ as you have stated previously, Jesus dosent make abomination and desolation

I respectfully disagree, this figure is the (Little Horn) The Beast

This "Future" figure will be present on earth making (Abomination & Desolation) to the (Consummation) or (The Ultimate End) "Future" Event(s) Unfulfilled

Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation

1: the act of consummating the consummation of a contract by mutual signature specifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

Thank you so much for your comment within Daniel... really! Now, let me tell you that perhaps no less than 85% of all Christians agree with YOU. And that is why I can not reconcile / discuss Revelation with anyone at this time... This is one of the grossest misinterpretations in Daniel and corrupts His prophecies in Daniel and in Revelation.  So, I agree you are in good company with the majority of Christians...

Now here is the key: Look for the Messiah in 9:24 - 9:27 and you will find Him. There is NO AC in chapter 9 but there is a prince who will destroy everything Jewish in 70 AD. 

[adamjedgar]

46 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Thank you so much for your comment within Daniel... really! Now, let me tell you that perhaps no less than 85% of all Christians agree with YOU. And that is why I can not reconcile / discuss Revelation with anyone at this time... This is one of the grossest misinterpretations in Daniel and corrupts His prophecies in Daniel and in Revelation.  So, I agree you are in good company with the majority of Christians...

Now here is the key: Look for the Messiah in 9:24 - 9:27 and you will find Him. There is NO AC in chapter 9 but there is a prince who will destroy everything Jewish in 70 AD. 

I would be very careful where one goes in interpreting 9:27. We must neve forget the scene is set in 9:24...it must stay true to the earlier verse.

24“Seventy ‘sevens’ ^c are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish ^d transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holt Place. ^e (NIV)

Only the Messiah can make atonement for sins and annoint the MHP...The Ark of the covenant has already been taken away from temple and hidden by the time of the Babylonian captivity (perhaps by prophet Jeremiah)...there is no mercy seat in the temple beyond this point...Gods presence is no longer there, nor will it return. 

Edited December 28, 2021 by adamjedgar

[truth7t7]

1 hour ago, Charlie744 said:

Thank you so much for your comment within Daniel... really! Now, let me tell you that perhaps no less than 85% of all Christians agree with YOU. And that is why I can not reconcile / discuss Revelation with anyone at this time... This is one of the grossest misinterpretations in Daniel and corrupts His prophecies in Daniel and in Revelation.  So, I agree you are in good company with the majority of Christians...

Now here is the key: Look for the Messiah in 9:24 - 9:27 and you will find Him. There is NO AC in chapter 9 but there is a prince who will destroy everything Jewish in 70 AD. 

We disagree, the bad guy seen in Daniel 9:27 will be present on earth causing desolation up to the "Consummation" or ultimate end, Charlie you disregard this fact "Why"?

Your Preterist interpretation in 70AD fulfillment is silenced in this simple fact alone

Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation

1: the act of consummating the consummation of a contract by mutual signature specifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Edited December 28, 2021 by truth7t7

[truth7t7]

1 hour ago, Charlie744 said:

Thank you so much for your comment within Daniel... really! Now, let me tell you that perhaps no less than 85% of all Christians agree with YOU. And that is why I can not reconcile / discuss Revelation with anyone at this time... This is one of the grossest misinterpretations in Daniel and corrupts His prophecies in Daniel and in Revelation.  So, I agree you are in good company with the majority of Christians...

Now here is the key: Look for the Messiah in 9:24 - 9:27 and you will find Him. There is NO AC in chapter 9 but there is a prince who will destroy everything Jewish in 70 AD. 

Charlie Messiah the Prince is explaining nothing more than who the Jews are building to, the true Messiah as seen in the Old Testament, Messiah is cut off when the armies surround Jerusalem in the "Future" and the building to Messiah is stopped/cutoff 

Charlie I'm fully aware you take a preterist 70AD interpretation on fulfillment, I disagree as the bad guy will be present on earth until the "Future" consummation (The End)

Daniel 9:24-27, Seventy Literal Weeks Explained?

Daniel's 70 weeks are literal 7 day periods, or 490 literal days.

If Daniel meant 490 years he would have written

(Four hundred and ninety years)

Daniel had no restrictions in "Writing" exact numerology as seen below.

Daniel 6:1KJV
It pleased Darius to set over the kingdom an hundred and twenty princes, which should be over the whole kingdom;

Daniel 8:14KJV
And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Daniel 12:11KJV
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Below in Daniel 10:2-3 we see just another example of Daniel's literal weeks, as Daniel mourned and fasted for 3 literal weeks or 21 days.

Daniel 10:2-3KJV
2 In those days I Daniel was mourning three full weeks.
3 I ate no pleasant bread, neither came flesh nor wine in my mouth, neither did I anoint myself at all, till three whole weeks were fulfilled.

Below in Daniel 9:24-27 we see (70 Literal Future Weeks) or 490 days.

When the (Future) call/commandment goes out in Jerusalem to build unto the Jewish Meshiach/Messiah that they wait for (They Denied Jesus Christ) this will start the 7 week period.

62 literal weeks will be in building, and Meshiach/Messiah will be cut off as Armies surrounding Jerusalem, who stop the building.

The 70th literal week will see the antichrist revealed in making a covenant, and in the middle of this literal week he proclaims to be Meshiach/Messiah God to the Jews, and Jesus returned to the apostate church, to start a Millennium on earth.

The 3.5 year tribulation now starts.

Daniel 9:24-27KJV
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Edited December 28, 2021 by truth7t7

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, adamjedgar said:

I would be very careful where one goes in interpreting 9:27. We must neve forget the scene is set in 9:24...it must stay true to the earlier verse.

24“Seventy ‘sevens’ ^c are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish ^d transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holt Place. ^e (NIV)

Only the Messiah can make atonement for sins and annoint the MHP...The Ark of the covenant has already been taken away from temple and hidden by the time of the Babylonian captivity (perhaps by prophet Jeremiah)...there is no mercy seat in the temple beyond this point...Gods presence is no longer there, nor will it return. 

I agree with you but I am not understanding your ‘caution’ statement.  

Would you mind elaborating on it? Thank you, Charlie