Who is the Little Horn of Daniel 8? Can this be linked with the Little Horn in Daniel 7?

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, truth7t7 said:

Charlie Messiah the Prince is explaining nothing more than who the Jews are building to, the true Messiah as seen in the Old Testament, Messiah is cut off when the armies surround Jerusalem in the "Future" and the building to Messiah is stopped/cutoff 

Charlie I'm fully aware you take a preterist 70AD interpretation on fulfillment, I disagree as the bad guy will be present on earth until the "Future" consummation (The End)

Daniel 9:24-27, Seventy Literal Weeks Explained?

Daniel's 70 weeks are literal 7 day periods, or 490 literal days.

If Daniel meant 490 years he would have written

(Four hundred and ninety years)

Daniel had no restrictions in "Writing" exact numerology as seen below.

Daniel 6:1KJV
It pleased Darius to set over the kingdom an hundred and twenty princes, which should be over the whole kingdom;

Daniel 8:14KJV
And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Daniel 12:11KJV
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Below in Daniel 10:2-3 we see just another example of Daniel's literal weeks, as Daniel mourned and fasted for 3 literal weeks or 21 days.

Daniel 10:2-3KJV
2 In those days I Daniel was mourning three full weeks.
3 I ate no pleasant bread, neither came flesh nor wine in my mouth, neither did I anoint myself at all, till three whole weeks were fulfilled.

Below in Daniel 9:24-27 we see (70 Literal Future Weeks) or 490 days.

When the (Future) call/commandment goes out in Jerusalem to build unto the Jewish Meshiach/Messiah that they wait for (They Denied Jesus Christ) this will start the 7 week period.

62 literal weeks will be in building, and Meshiach/Messiah will be cut off as Armies surrounding Jerusalem, who stop the building.

The 70th literal week will see the antichrist revealed in making a covenant, and in the middle of this literal week he proclaims to be Meshiach/Messiah God to the Jews, and Jesus returned to the apostate church, to start a Millennium on earth.

The 3.5 year tribulation now starts.

Daniel 9:24-27KJV
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Thank you for your comments!

There is a ton of information about Daniel’s 70 weeks prophecy and it is in years. It begins in 457BC and is a continuous 490 years. The purpose of the 490 years is to restore EVERYTHING that was taken away from the Jews when they went into captivity. Each time element, whether it is identified as ‘times’, or days, or years, etc., has to be evaluated and interpreted on its own merits- context.  Take a look at each of the items that were removed from the Jews (Babylon)- they last the Ark, the city walls, the Temple, the land and the people. At the end of the 70 years, after their punishment period, God would design a Plan to restore each of those pieces in Jerusalem as if it was prior to Babylon. He specifically restored those pieces in 3 very separate and distinct time periods- 7 weeks of 7 years (49 years), 62 weeks of 7 years (434 years), and 1 week of 7 years (7 years) totaling 490 years. The 3 separate periods represented one or more of those pieces that HAD to be restored BEFORE the Messiah came. Why? Everything had to be IN PLACE for the FINAL piece of those items to he restored- The Messiah would be the replacement piece that HAD to be in the Holy of Holies- the ARK of the covenant. Jesus could not serve as our High Priest unless the Temple was rebuilt. Jesus could not be our Passover Lamb unless the sacrificial system was restored. The Temple was ONLY a beautiful building without God’s presence (Jesus replaces the ARK). The 490 years are needed and can not be separated from His Plan to restore everything BEFORE His first coming. This is why you have to find the ‘true meaning’ for EACH time element in Daniel- each one has their own unique application.

Some denominations will use the SAME time application for EVERY mention of a time element- days, years, times, etc. They never find His underlying message or prophecy. And this causes ALL their timed element interpretations to be shot forward into Revelation and completely corrupt it’s messages and prophecies. 

Here is what I can tell you:

1) time, times, and 1/2 times is not years, 

2) 2300 days IS days, 

3) 1260, 1290 and 1335 are ALL days, 

4) 490 is in years,

5) Nebuchadnezzar’s period of punishment is 7 days

6) I believe all the other minor time elements in Daniel - 21, etc., are all in days. 

So, before you commit to interpret what period each time element means, you MUST study the intent of His message. This is why you MUST leave Revelation alone until you finish Daniel. 

Jesus was baptized by John on the exact first day of the last week (the beginning of the. 70th week). This means everything He must complete and fulfill WILL be done in those last 7 years of the 70 weeks prophecy. Chapter 9 tells us the 6 requirements Jesus MUST fulfill on that week, and despite His being ‘cut off in the midst of the week”, He would still fulfill His mission to save us from our sins. His part of God’s Plan of Salvation was finished- no different than ANY other one of God’s covenants He had entered into with man. God would ALWAYS fulfill His side of the covenants and man would always fall short of their commitments. 

On the Cross Jesus said 2 things pertaining to His 6 requirements (because He was crucified before the end of the 7 years): He said, ‘forgive them, for they know not what they do’, and ‘it is finished’. BOTH of these statements tell us we did not understand He came for OUR salvation and despite what we did to Him, He still would finish His part in God’s Plan of Salvation. 

Let me know your thoughts, Charlie 

[adamjedgar]

Charlie...you have gone off base with the Nebuchadnezzar punishment of 7 days...that is bogus I'm afraid.

It also means some of your other timescales are wrong as well. The keys to the day/year prophecies are far more in depth than what you are interpreting and for good reason. You cannot continue to isolate biblical passages like this...I fear it will end up in a mass of convoluted and conflicting theories.

 

Jesus did not come to setup an earthly sanctuary...that is an incorrect view.

His mission was to make atonement for sin...that may be manifested on earth but it was heavenly in its intention...the forgiveness of sin doesn't come from earth.

 

The reason he said to Mary on the sunday morning, do not touch me for I have not yet ascended to my father...it's  significant...look at the sanctuary festivals...what come next after his crucifixion?

Edited December 28, 2021 by adamjedgar

[Charlie744]

56 minutes ago, adamjedgar said:

Charlie...you have gone off base with the Nebuchadnezzar punishment of 7 days...that is bogus I'm afraid.

No, the other day I provided you with only two of the reasons. There are 4 other very good reasons that ‘fit’ quite nicely with the 7 days.  

So, I know I have done my homework. I am aware of the two extremely weak reasons (without any support at all) why others including yourself claim a 7 year period. But I understand!

 

56 minutes ago, adamjedgar said:

It also means some of your other timescales are wrong as well. The keys to the day/year prophecies are far more in depth than what you are interpreting and for good reason. You cannot continue to isolate biblical passages like this...I fear it will end up in a mass of convoluted and conflicting theories.

There is absolutely NO isolation of any passages or verses... I understand just how difficult (impossible) it is for an SDA member to even consider an application other than the year for a day principle- It is part of your DNA! Which is exactly why I have not attempted to bring up the 2300 days prophecy again- and, I also realize why you have not shown any further interest in it since I mentioned to you that the 1844 date is not a good interpretation. Until I started studying Daniel my understandings of all of Daniel’s time prophecies were in line with the day / year principle since NO other interpretation made any sense to me. It was only after months and months of drilling down that the interpretations associated with these time elements came together. They just would not come out of the ground no matter how long and hard I pulled. But I persisted and the time elements are indeed what I mentioned in my earlier post. The reason they were ALL uncovered is because I tried to see how each might apply to the Messiah- that is the key to Daniel. The historical approach EVERYONE has been using for past 300 years is ALL historical and Daniel is NOT a history book but all prophetic. 

56 minutes ago, adamjedgar said:

Jesus did not come to setup an earthly sanctuary...that is an

incorrect view.

I have no idea why you believe my interpretations speak of an ‘earthly Sanctuary’. Nothing in my interpretations claim such a thing. What you should see is that the physical Temple/Sanctuary/ Sacrifices, etc., were a shadow of the coming Messiah. He would fulfill each of the pieces of the Sanctuary by His first coming, as well as the first 4 Jewish feasts. He completely His mission on earth and now has returned to heaven where His sacrifice was accepted by God and the heavenly Sanctuary was cleansed. It is finished! 

The SDA has attempted to interpret the 2300 days AND Daniel perhaps like no other denomination. And to be candid, they have so much if it right - compared to all other Christian groups!!!!!

But they failed on the 2300 days and the other days (1260,etc.) for ONE reason- they took their eye off of the Messiah and attempted to identify events that would take place ON EARTH. God did not use Daniel to design prophecies targeted to ONE specific denomination or to identify a ‘end time prophetic church’. These verses speak about the Messiah not a coming SDA church that is set apart from all other Christian churches and has the only correct interpretation of Daniel and the end times. I am aware of the Napoleon part in the Daniel interpretations and the RCC having a mortal wound, and then the Mussolini role, etc. ALL of this has come about because of this ‘one size fits all’ principle of the day for a year principle. I mentioned to you earlier I don’t know why or how but I seemed to have connected with a Bill Porter in Australia. Did not realize it then but his family is HUGE in the SDA world going back quite far (don’t know if it goes back to Ellen White ), but I mentioned my interpretation to him on the time, times, and 1/2 times to get his response. He sort of went ballistic since it went against the SDA view using day for a year principle. 

Bottom line- it IS IN YOUR DNA no different than many interpretations found in other denominations who belief in Sunday worship, 9:27 is the AC, and so many more. 

56 minutes ago, adamjedgar said:

His mission was to make atonement for sin...that may be manifested on earth but it was heavenly in its intention...the forgiveness of sin doesn't come from earth.

No disagreement here. The Messiah HAD to fulfill His 6 requirements AS A MAN on earth which also included His requirement to show us HE could keep the 10 commandments. None of the 10 or the 6 could the Messiah have ‘phoned them in’ if you will! He had to fulfill them HERE, and they were all accepted in heaven by His Father. 

56 minutes ago, adamjedgar said:

The reason he said to Mary on the sunday morning, do not touch me for I have not yet ascended to my father...it's  significant...look at the sanctuary festivals...what come next after his crucifixion?

Because He was ‘perfected’ as we will be after our resurrection when He will restore OUR Holy Spirit back into us and be able to he on His presence. Jesus had to return and present Himself to God - He fulfilled His mission. 

I will not  reveal the 2300 days interpretation to you because you will receive it no different than my very good friend who grew up in a SDA household / SDA education at every level, he, his family, his friends, is 100% SDA. 

So, I do understand why you made your comments above.

Charlie 

[Charlie744]

17 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

No, the other day I provided you with only two of the reasons. There are 4 other very good reasons that ‘fit’ quite nicely with the 7 days.  

So, I know I have done my homework. I am aware of the two extremely weak reasons (without any support at all) why others including yourself claim a 7 year period. But I understand!

 

There is absolutely NO isolation of any passages or verses... I understand just how difficult (impossible) it is for an SDA member to even consider an application other than the year for a day principle- It is part of your DNA! Which is exactly why I have not attempted to bring up the 2300 days prophecy again- and, I also realize why you have not shown any further interest in it since I mentioned to you that the 1844 date is not a good interpretation. Until I started studying Daniel my understandings of all of Daniel’s time prophecies were in line with the day / year principle since NO other interpretation made any sense to me. It was only after months and months of drilling down that the interpretations associated with these time elements came together. They just would not come out of the ground no matter how long and hard I pulled. But I persisted and the time elements are indeed what I mentioned in my earlier post. The reason they were ALL uncovered is because I tried to see how each might apply to the Messiah- that is the key to Daniel. The historical approach EVERYONE has been using for past 300 years is ALL historical and Daniel is NOT a history book but all prophetic. 

I have no idea why you believe my interpretations speak of an ‘earthly Sanctuary’. Nothing in my interpretations claim such a thing. What you should see is that the physical Temple/Sanctuary/ Sacrifices, etc., were a shadow of the coming Messiah. He would fulfill each of the pieces of the Sanctuary by His first coming, as well as the first 4 Jewish feasts. He completely His mission on earth and now has returned to heaven where His sacrifice was accepted by God and the heavenly Sanctuary was cleansed. It is finished! 

The SDA has attempted to interpret the 2300 days AND Daniel perhaps like no other denomination. And to be candid, they have so much if it right - compared to all other Christian groups!!!!!

But they failed on the 2300 days and the other days (1260,etc.) for ONE reason- they took their eye off of the Messiah and attempted to identify events that would take place ON EARTH. God did not use Daniel to design prophecies targeted to ONE specific denomination or to identify a ‘end time prophetic church’. These verses speak about the Messiah not a coming SDA church that is set apart from all other Christian churches and has the only correct interpretation of Daniel and the end times. I am aware of the Napoleon part in the Daniel interpretations and the RCC having a mortal wound, and then the Mussolini role, etc. ALL of this has come about because of this ‘one size fits all’ principle of the day for a year principle. I mentioned to you earlier I don’t know why or how but I seemed to have connected with a Bill Porter in Australia. Did not realize it then but his family is HUGE in the SDA world going back quite far (don’t know if it goes back to Ellen White ), but I mentioned my interpretation to him on the time, times, and 1/2 times to get his response. He sort of went ballistic since it went against the SDA view using day for a year principle. 

Bottom line- it IS IN YOUR DNA no different than many interpretations found in other denominations who belief in Sunday worship, 9:27 is the AC, and so many more. 

No disagreement here. The Messiah HAD to fulfill His 6 requirements AS A MAN on earth which also included His requirement to show us HE could keep the 10 commandments. None of the 10 or the 6 could the Messiah have ‘phoned them in’ if you will! He had to fulfill them HERE, and they were all accepted in heaven by His Father. 

Because He was ‘perfected’ as we will be after our resurrection when He will restore OUR Holy Spirit back into us and be able to he on His presence. Jesus had to return and present Himself to God - He fulfilled His mission. 

I will not  reveal the 2300 days interpretation to you because you will receive it no different than my very good friend who grew up in a SDA household / SDA education at every level, he, his family, his friends, is 100% SDA. 

So, I do understand why you made your comments above.

Charlie 

Sorry, have to make a slight correction- 

time, times, and 1/2 time IS in YEARS, but it is NOT how you might think... very different! Charlie 

[adamjedgar]

 I was more interested right now in the problem with the 7 days......his hair grew long and fingernails as well. That does not happen in 7 days. I think the only way to ignore the importance of those two features is to twist the text.

Sorry, but it's absolutely not 7 days.

 

(The the word "until" is important)

 

Daniel chapter 4 

His body was drenched with the dew of heaven until his hair grew like the feathers of an eagle and his nails like the claws of a bird.

 

what I see is that one has to ignore that word "until" to support the idea it must be days. That is ignoring this specific passage in its own context. It's a tree...that references seasons...seasons is not linked to 7 days.

So it's weeks, months or years. Of the types that will...most tree stumps also don't regrow to full maturity again in 7 days...I would argue 7 weeks or even 7 months isn't long enough. Hence why I stick with years.

 

(Bite me. My formal training was an industrial arts high school teacher... woodwork is one of my major areas of study)

Edited December 28, 2021 by adamjedgar

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, adamjedgar said:

 I was more interested right now in the problem with the 7 days......his hair grew long and fingernails as well. That does not happen in 7 days. I think the only way to ignore the importance of those two features is to twist the text.

Sorry, but it's absolutely not 7 days.

 

(The the word "until" is important)

 

Daniel chapter 4 

His body was drenched with the dew of heaven until his hair grew like the feathers of an eagle and his nails like the claws of a bird.

 

what I see is that one has to ignore that word "until" to support the idea it must be days. That is ignoring this specific passage in its own context. It's a tree...that references seasons...seasons is not linked to 7 days.

So it's weeks, months or years. Of the types that will...most tree stumps also don't regrow to full maturity again in 7 days...I would argue 7 weeks or even 7 months isn't long enough. Hence why I stick with years.

 

(Bite me. My formal training was an industrial arts high school teacher... woodwork is one of my major areas of study)

Two comments: Please note the words here..... with emphasis on the word "like".............. 'until his hair grew like the'. He did not grow feathers or claws, but his hair grew like them..... 

Secondly, 'Bite me'?  Really? 

 

 

[adamjedgar]

5 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Two comments: Please note the words here..... with emphasis on the word "like".............. 'until his hair grew like the'. He did not grow feathers or claws, but his hair grew like them..... 

Secondly, 'Bite me'?  Really? 

 

 

the bite me was not meant in gest...it was meant to convey i cant help that im a wood technology and metal technology major in teaching at university...so the concept of times/seasons being years is consistent with tree growth, i think that is also why this particular illustration is used.) 

anyway, now to speak to the word "like" if i said to you, my horse has a tail that looks "like" a bald mans head, what imagery would be in your head...taht the horse had no tail or that it was hairless?

If i were to say to you, after polishing my car, it looked like it had a brand new paint job, would you say the car had not paint or just that the paintwork was in pristine condition after polishing?

The point is, if a writer says to you, I am describing a physical attribute after a person has been homeless for a long period of time, how might that writer describe some of those attributes?( nails that look like claws of a bird...clearly means they had grown very long and curled...hair that grew long is the same application).

you are trying to change the meanings of very self evident concepts in order to support a theory that the day year principle for this is wrong. Im sorry Charlie...you are not correct here. you have to let this go.

Also, as i said previously, after reading Zehariah chapters 1 and 6 and commentary on what the four winds of heaven represents, as well as numerous biblical passages about the four horns, the four horses, the four craftsman...even my own theory about the Seleucid empire is now in tatters and i have to rethink it!

It is now absolutely clear to me that we have to move to Daniel chapter 8 vs 8&9. Remove all sentence structure from these words bar the spaces and recompile them. If you do that with the enlightening information of Zechariah ch 1 and ch 6, suddenly you realise that the horn that comes our of the 4 winds of heaven in Daniel 8:9 is not one of the 4 generals of Alexandar the Great. This horn comes out of the same four winds that stirred up the sea in Daniel 7:1-3.

One could actually argue that the horn here is on one of those first four beasts...remember the last beast that comes out of the sea is the "terrible one that is different from all of the others".

How is this last beast different i ask myself? 

1. its clearly a frightening beast of awesome visual characteristics...clearly much more imposing than a bear

2. this beast is described as being exceedingly strong

Now here is the really interesting thing about how the fourth beast is describe...notice verse 7 "it devoured and broke in pieces and stamped what was left with its feet."

 

so what was left that this beast was devouring and breaking in pieces? Are we talking about the left over ruins of previous kingdoms or, are we talking about the what is left of Gods people and their theology? Could it be that this beast is going to break into pieces the final unblemished world view of the church? This is now where we are simply forced to look at the historical record...we have irrefutable evidence/proof of this. If we look to the rise of the power of the church in the Roman empire, and the subsequent dark ages, clearly that is what happened....the foundation of the original christian church was corrupted so badly, so oppressed, so broken...it was scattered.

 

3. Now here is where another problem immediately comes into this theology. As soon as we realise that the four beast coming up out of sea (the sea stirred up by the four winds of heaven) we now have to recognise that this vision extends right down to the end of time...Daniel 7:

21As I looked, this horn made war with the saints and prevailed over them, 22until the Ancient of Days came, and judgment was given for the saints of the Most High,

 

Now here is the thing that at some point soon we need to resolve...what is the meaning of Daniel 8

English Standard Version
And at the latter end of their kingdom, when the transgressors have reached their limit, a king of bold face, one who understands riddles, shall arise.

 

Does this refer to the latter part of the Greek empire, OR, 

 

is it in fact talking about the end of the kingdoms of the four beasts that come up out of the sea that was stirred up by the four winds of heaven? See there is no mention of the little horn here at all...which i think in fact supports the view that this is actually talking about the four beasts BEFORE the little horn rises up out of them! (ie babylon, medo-persia, greece, rome) 

 

BTW...just to dispel and thoughts to the contrary...i am not sitting with an SDA bible commentary by my side...this is all just personal deduction from what i am reading. 

Edited December 29, 2021 by adamjedgar

[Charlie744]

2 hours ago, adamjedgar said:

the bite me was not meant in gest...it was meant to convey i cant help that im a wood technology and metal technology major in teaching at university...so the concept of times/seasons being years is consistent with tree growth, i think that is also why this particular illustration is used.) 

anyway, now to speak to the word "like" if i said to you, my horse has a tail that looks "like" a bald mans head, what imagery would be in your head...taht the horse had no tail or that it was hairless?

If i were to say to you, after polishing my car, it looked like it had a brand new paint job, would you say the car had not paint or just that the paintwork was in pristine condition after polishing?

The point is, if a writer says to you, I am describing a physical attribute after a person has been homeless for a long period of time, how might that writer describe some of those attributes?( nails that look like claws of a bird...clearly means they had grown very long and curled...hair that grew long is the same application).

you are trying to change the meanings of very self evident concepts in order to support a theory that the day year principle for this is wrong. Im sorry Charlie...you are not correct here. you have to let this go.

Also, as i said previously, after reading Zehariah chapters 1 and 6 and commentary on what the four winds of heaven represents, as well as numerous biblical passages about the four horns, the four horses, the four craftsman...even my own theory about the Seleucid empire is now in tatters and i have to rethink it!

It is now absolutely clear to me that we have to move to Daniel chapter 8 vs 8&9. Remove all sentence structure from these words bar the spaces and recompile them. If you do that with the enlightening information of Zechariah ch 1 and ch 6, suddenly you realise that the horn that comes our of the 4 winds of heaven in Daniel 8:9 is not one of the 4 generals of Alexandar the Great. This horn comes out of the same four winds that stirred up the sea in Daniel 7:1-3.

One could actually argue that the horn here is on one of those first four beasts...remember the last beast that comes out of the sea is the "terrible one that is different from all of the others".

How is this last beast different i ask myself? 

1. its clearly a frightening beast of awesome visual characteristics...clearly much more imposing than a bear

2. this beast is described as being exceedingly strong

Now here is the really interesting thing about how the fourth beast is describe...notice verse 7 "it devoured and broke in pieces and stamped what was left with its feet."

 

so what was left that this beast was devouring and breaking in pieces? Are we talking about the left over ruins of previous kingdoms or, are we talking about the what is left of Gods people and their theology? Could it be that this beast is going to break into pieces the final unblemished world view of the church? This is now where we are simply forced to look at the historical record...we have irrefutable evidence/proof of this. If we look to the rise of the power of the church in the Roman empire, and the subsequent dark ages, clearly that is what happened....the foundation of the original christian church was corrupted so badly, so oppressed, so broken...it was scattered.

 

3. Now here is where another problem immediately comes into this theology. As soon as we realise that the four beast coming up out of sea (the sea stirred up by the four winds of heaven) we now have to recognise that this vision extends right down to the end of time...Daniel 7:

21As I looked, this horn made war with the saints and prevailed over them, 22until the Ancient of Days came, and judgment was given for the saints of the Most High,

 

Now here is the thing that at some point soon we need to resolve...what is the meaning of Daniel 8

English Standard Version
And at the latter end of their kingdom, when the transgressors have reached their limit, a king of bold face, one who understands riddles, shall arise.

 

Does this refer to the latter part of the Greek empire, OR, 

 

is it in fact talking about the end of the kingdoms of the four beasts that come up out of the sea that was stirred up by the four winds of heaven? See there is no mention of the little horn here at all...which i think in fact supports the view that this is actually talking about the four beasts BEFORE the little horn rises up out of them! (ie babylon, medo-persia, greece, rome) 

 

BTW...just to dispel and thoughts to the contrary...i am not sitting with an SDA bible commentary by my side...this is all just personal deduction from what i am reading. 

Thank you and will get back!

Charlie

[adamjedgar]

8 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Thank you and will get back!

Charlie

Sorry this is so late...but I've just found it...

Joel 1:6-10

"6For a nation has come up against my land,
powerful and beyond number;
its teeth are lions’ teeth,
and it has the fangs of a lioness.
7It has laid waste my vine
and splintered my fig tree;
it has stripped off their bark and thrown it down;
their branches are made white.

8Lament like a virgin^a wearing sackcloth
for the bridegroom of her youth.
9The grain offering and the drink offering are cut off
from the house of the LORD.
The priests mourn,
the ministers of the LORD."

 

It seems that Joel is linked to the period around 500b.c or earlier.

I am considering that perhaps Joel is  referring to the captivity commencing in Babylon.

Vs 9 also clearly speaks of the stopping of the sacrificial system during that captivity.

 

Then I have also noticed...Daniel chapters 7 and 8  are out of sync with chapter 6 and 9.

They are still in baylonian rulership even though the medes overthrew Babylon in ch 5!

Something unusual going on there.

Edited December 29, 2021 by adamjedgar

[Hobie_]

On 12/28/2021 at 7:26 PM, adamjedgar said:

the bite me was not meant in gest...it was meant to convey i cant help that im a wood technology and metal technology major in teaching at university...so the concept of times/seasons being years is consistent with tree growth, i think that is also why this particular illustration is used.) 

anyway, now to speak to the word "like" if i said to you, my horse has a tail that looks "like" a bald mans head, what imagery would be in your head...taht the horse had no tail or that it was hairless?

If i were to say to you, after polishing my car, it looked like it had a brand new paint job, would you say the car had not paint or just that the paintwork was in pristine condition after polishing?

The point is, if a writer says to you, I am describing a physical attribute after a person has been homeless for a long period of time, how might that writer describe some of those attributes?( nails that look like claws of a bird...clearly means they had grown very long and curled...hair that grew long is the same application).

you are trying to change the meanings of very self evident concepts in order to support a theory that the day year principle for this is wrong. Im sorry Charlie...you are not correct here. you have to let this go.

Also, as i said previously, after reading Zehariah chapters 1 and 6 and commentary on what the four winds of heaven represents, as well as numerous biblical passages about the four horns, the four horses, the four craftsman...even my own theory about the Seleucid empire is now in tatters and i have to rethink it!

It is now absolutely clear to me that we have to move to Daniel chapter 8 vs 8&9. Remove all sentence structure from these words bar the spaces and recompile them. If you do that with the enlightening information of Zechariah ch 1 and ch 6, suddenly you realise that the horn that comes our of the 4 winds of heaven in Daniel 8:9 is not one of the 4 generals of Alexandar the Great. This horn comes out of the same four winds that stirred up the sea in Daniel 7:1-3.

One could actually argue that the horn here is on one of those first four beasts...remember the last beast that comes out of the sea is the "terrible one that is different from all of the others".

How is this last beast different i ask myself? 

1. its clearly a frightening beast of awesome visual characteristics...clearly much more imposing than a bear

2. this beast is described as being exceedingly strong

Now here is the really interesting thing about how the fourth beast is describe...notice verse 7 "it devoured and broke in pieces and stamped what was left with its feet."

 

so what was left that this beast was devouring and breaking in pieces? Are we talking about the left over ruins of previous kingdoms or, are we talking about the what is left of Gods people and their theology? Could it be that this beast is going to break into pieces the final unblemished world view of the church? This is now where we are simply forced to look at the historical record...we have irrefutable evidence/proof of this. If we look to the rise of the power of the church in the Roman empire, and the subsequent dark ages, clearly that is what happened....the foundation of the original christian church was corrupted so badly, so oppressed, so broken...it was scattered.

 

3. Now here is where another problem immediately comes into this theology. As soon as we realise that the four beast coming up out of sea (the sea stirred up by the four winds of heaven) we now have to recognise that this vision extends right down to the end of time...Daniel 7:

21As I looked, this horn made war with the saints and prevailed over them, 22until the Ancient of Days came, and judgment was given for the saints of the Most High,

 

Now here is the thing that at some point soon we need to resolve...what is the meaning of Daniel 8

English Standard Version
And at the latter end of their kingdom, when the transgressors have reached their limit, a king of bold face, one who understands riddles, shall arise.

 

Does this refer to the latter part of the Greek empire, OR, 

 

is it in fact talking about the end of the kingdoms of the four beasts that come up out of the sea that was stirred up by the four winds of heaven? See there is no mention of the little horn here at all...which i think in fact supports the view that this is actually talking about the four beasts BEFORE the little horn rises up out of them! (ie babylon, medo-persia, greece, rome) 

 

BTW...just to dispel and thoughts to the contrary...i am not sitting with an SDA bible commentary by my side...this is all just personal deduction from what i am reading. 

Yes, the four beasts rise before the little horn, and the little horn rises out of them and also takes many of the characteristics of the four beasts.

Daniel 7 lines them up:

3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.

5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.

6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.

7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

The conglomeration of the four into the rise of the fifth beast is seen in Revelation 13:

1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

We basically have the following:
1. Lion = Babylon
2. Bear = Medo Persia
3. Leopard = Grecia
4. Pagan Rome before 538 AD.
5. Papal Rome which we see in the conglomerate beast of Revelation 13, and it has the characteristics of the four beasts before it. And is given its power by the dragon as we see in Rev 13:2. 

The Apostle Paul spoke of the mystery of iniquity which had already begun in his day, and the man of sin, both of which are part of the fifth beast of bible prophecy.

This fifth beast of biblical prophecy, the first beast of the book of Rev. 13, was the Papacy and we see how it rose out of the Roman Empire to create what is called the holy Roman empire of the middle, or dark ages.  The Papacy was the little horn of Daniel 7 which grew out of one of the ten horns of the fourth beast, who plucked up three of the other horns, had the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things:

Daniel 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

In Daniel 7:25, Daniel warned that the Little Horn power (Roman papacy) would "think to change Times and Laws",
(God's Laws)... https://askacatholic.com/_webpostings/answers/2015_01JAN/2015JanWhyDidTheChurchDoThis.cfm

  As the Roman Empire was falling, Christianity was spreading as the early church grew, and it was finally accepted.  But by this time however, the mystery of iniquity had already greatly influenced the Church especially at Rome.  The pagan rulers of Rome half heartedly accepting Christianity for the sake of greater control of their empire, only accelerated the rate of this apostasy. 

The result was the establishment of the little horn power spoken of in Daniel, clearly  Papal Rome, a half Christian half pagan entity which ruled over the kings of Europe and persecuted and killed all that opposed her, including God’s true people for 1260 years.  This is the first beast of the book of Rev 13. 

The following statement by William Durant sums it up well.

  "When Christianity conquered Rome the ecclesiastical structure of the pagan church, the title and vestments of the pontifex maximus, the worship of the Great Mother and a multitude of comforting divinities, the sense of supersensible presences everywhere, the joy or solemnity of old festivals, and the pageantry of immemorial ceremony, passed like maternal blood into the new religion, and captive Rome captured her conqueror.  The reins and skill of government were handed down by a dying empire to a virile papacy; the lost power of the broken sword was rewon by the magic of the consoling word; the armies of the state were replaced by the missionaries of the Church moving in all directions along the Roman roads; and the revolted provinces, accepting Christianity, again acknowledged the sovereignty of Rome.  Through the long struggles of the Age of Faith the authority of the ancient capital persisted and grew, until in the Renaissance the classic culture seemed to rise from the grave, and the immortal city became once more the center of summit of the world's life and wealth and art.  When, in 1936, Rome celebrated the 2689th anniversary of her foundation, she could look back upon the most impressive continuity of government and civilization in the history of mankind.  May she rise again.(CAESAR AND CHRIST, A history of Roman Civilization and of Christianity from their beginnings to A.D.325. By Will Durant-1944)

This persecuting religious-political power received a deadly wound in 1798 when the Pope was torn from his throne and put in exile until his death.  History shows it quite clearly.."1798 General Berthier made his entrance into Rome, abolished the papal government, and established a secular one." -Encyclopedia Britannica 1941 edition.
At this time also, many new systems of government were being put in place, that would no longer allow a religion to politically dominate a country.  The government of these United States not being at all among the least of them.  However, this country, and world, will turn back time, and make an image to this first beast of Rev. 13.  As Rev 13:14 points out, they will do this in the sight, or under the supervision if you will, of the first beast whose deadly wound is healed. 

The image to the beast will be a restoration of the form of government which the first beast implemented, that is a religious-political persecuting governmental power.  It will be the reestablishment of the authority and dominance of the Papacy on a world wide scale as we are seeing now.  The little horn is again rising as we see everywhere the news.. https://www.globalcitizen.org/en/content/pope-francis-climate-change-COP26-G20/

Edited January 15, 2022 by Hobie_