A Prewrath Rapture question

[truth7t7]

2 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

You aren't disagreeing with me.  You are disagreeing with the consensual definitions of post trib and pre- wrath.   I think what you disagree with is that you are a post-tribber and I'm a Pre-wrather.  

Be Blessed 

 

You claim the coming of Jesus Christ in Matthew 24:30 is different than the one seen in Revelation 19 and I stated I disagree, its the very same coming seen, this is your belief that is error in my opinion, simple

Are you Preterist in 70AD fulfillment of events in Matthew 24?

Edited January 9, 2022 by truth7t7

[transmogrified]

On 1/8/2022 at 9:22 AM, JoeCanada said:

But Revelation is not in chronological order. 

Rev 17:1 to 19:10 is a Parenthesis, it's God’s Judgment on Babylon the religious and economic entity. If you read it, you will see that it is. Revelation 19:11 picks up again the chronological flow with ...... "And I saw heaven opened"

Joe-

There is a distinction between the woman and beast that she rides...the woman is Babylon the Great but she is riding upon a beast with seven heads and ten horns. The beast that is ruling over the 10 kings are the focus of Armageddon as it is these kings and the beast who are in power at the time of Christ's return.

John was wondering at what he saw when the angel showed him this woman riding upon a scarlet colored beast. When the angel reveals what he is looking at he makes a distinction between the woman and beast she is riding that had the seven heads and the ten horns, and then defines the two entities:

Rev. 17: 12 "And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast." 

Rev. 17:18 'The woman which thou sawest is that great city that reigns over the kings of the earth."

The woman, or Babylon the Great, is shown to be burned with fire by the ten horns, or the ten kings that rule with the beast. 

Rev. 17:16 "And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire..."

So this destruction of Babylon occurs before Jesus returns as shown by the resurrected saints that are in heaven before Jesus returns to the earth with them. What were they saying?

Rev. 19:1-3 "...I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, (the resurrected saints that have been caught up to heaven) saying, Alleluia; Salvation and glory and honor and power unto the Lord our God...for he hath judged (past tense) the great whore, (Mystery Babylon, the woman / whore who rode upon the beast) which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand...and her smoke rose up for ever and ever..."

The reason that the saints are saying that God had avenged the blood of his servants by burning her with fire is that God put it in the heart of these kings to do his will:

Rev. 17:17 "For God has put in their hearts to fulfill his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled."

So what I am getting at is Babylon is destroyed by the ten kings before he returns with his saints, then when he returns with his saints he will be making war with the ten kings and the beast at Armageddon.

We cannot escape the sequence of events, in that  Babylon is burned with fire before the Second Coming, and then the armies at Armageddon are destroyed afterward  at the Second Coming.

1) John sees the vision of the woman riding a beast with seven heads and ten horns..

2) The angel reveals to John the identity of the woman and the beast that carries her...

3) He then shows John what will happen to the woman and the beast that carries her...

4) He then shows that the woman will be burned before he returns and then shows the armies at Armageddon will later be destroyed when he comes with the armies of heaven.

But you are correct when it says in Rev. 19:11 that John saw the heaven opened...this is when Jesus comes down with his saints to Armageddon....but it is not until after heaven is opened that we see the slaughter at Armageddon being described.

So lets look at your quote here again:

Quote

Rev 17:1 to 19:10 is a Parenthesis, it's God’s Judgment on Babylon the religious and economic entity. If you read it, you will see that it is. Revelation 19:11 picks up again the chronological flow with ...... "And I saw heaven opened"

The quote shows that God's judgment takes place on both Babylon and the economic entity, and then continues with the chronological flow with heaven being opened, however it is only the judgment of Babylon the Great that has occurred up to when heaven was opened, the judgment of the economic entity, or the beast is not shown to occur until after the heaven is opened at the Second coming. 

[transmogrified]

7 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

Many have mistakenly identified the 7th Trumpet as the time of his coming.   There is no such hint of his coming mentioned in the account of the blowing of the 7th Trumpet. 

Hello Da Puppers - The events listed at the sounding of the 7th trumpet include the following:

1) The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ

2) Thou has taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned...

3) The nations were angry and thy wrath is come...

4) The time of the dead that they should be judged...

5) Thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and to them that fear thy name, both small and great...

6) And that thou shouldest destroy them that destroy the earth.

When do the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ?

When Daniel interpreted Nebuchadnezzar's dream, he said:

"Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay; and brake them to pieces...and the stone became a great mountain that filled the whole earth..."

Revelation 19 is specifically showing Jesus (the stone cut out without hands) returning with his armies from heaven and  the slaughter of the ten kings and the beast at Armageddon (smiting the image upon his feet, i.e. the ten toes) where he calls the birds of the heaven to come and eat their flesh and the blood is up to the horses bridles. It then states he has taken to himself his great power and hast reigned. (The stone became a great mountain and filled the whole earth).

Another two major points are that this is called the 'time of the dead' that they should be judged.

This is the last day, when everyone, good and bad, from Adam up to the Second coming will be resurrected and judged. Paul said in Timothy that he will judge the quick (living) and the dead at his appearing and kingdom, and both his appearing and kingdom are shown to occur at the 7th Trumpet.

Paul said he had fought a good fight, he had kept the faith and finished his course and then said because of this there was a crown of life that the Lord would give him at that day....this is the day he was speaking of...and he said it would not be for him alone, but for all those who love his appearing.

This is confirmed in the next part of what is said to happen at the 7th trumpet...not only the time of the dead, but that he would give rewards to his servants the prophets, and to them that fear his name, both small and great. This is the day of judgment, this is the judgment seat of Christ, this is when Jesus comes with all the holy angels and sits on his throne on the earth in Matt. 25 called the sheep and goat judgment occurs. This is the wheat and tares being judged and rewarded. This is the good and bad fish being separated on the shore. This is that great and terrible day of the Lord.

These events are specifically identified as events that occur at the Second Coming in many scriptures, more than I have brought up. 

It was said there was not one hint of the 7th Trumpet being the Second Coming...what events would be needed to show it was the Second Coming?

 

[truth7t7]

4 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

Let me briefly address your question and then I will re-address our point of disagreement. 

Preterist? Emphatically no.   As a matter of clarification,  the prophesied destruction of the temple in matt 24, is yet future and was NOT fulfilled in 70 AD.  I think(?) i understand you to also believe in a future destruction of Jerusalem.   That is the basis of Matt 24.  The AoD of Matt 24 is mistakenly PRE-associated with the "great tribulation" .  Don't get me wrong here.   Great Tribulation [as is mentioned in Rev 7] will in fact precede the future desolation of Jerusalem [Rev 11:2]; and it will precede the beast rising from the bottomless pit [Rev 17].  But it is the DOTL that Joel 2:1,2 identifies as the time unlike and unparalleled in history. 

Joe 2:1-2 KJV ¹ Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand; ² A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.

And it's from Jer 30 that that unparalleled time [of Jacob's trouble, DOTL] is equated to the time when the remnant is gathered back to the promised land.  

I don't believe you are grasping the ramifications of Psa 110.  Jesus will not begin his reign [execution of authority over ALL things]  until the Father sends him to rule in the midst of his enemies.   That is the declaration manifesto of the 7th Trumpet.  

Rev 11:15 KJV And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Many have mistakenly identified the 7th Trumpet as the time of his coming.   There is no such hint of his coming mentioned in the account of the blowing of the 7th Trumpet.   It is but the beginning of the executing of the authority that the Father gives to the Son.  This is what we see in Daniel 7.

Dan 7:13-14 KJV ¹³ I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. ¹⁴ And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

It's not until AFTER Jesus is seen coming in the clouds of heaven TO the Ancient of Days that all authority [people, nations and languages] is given to the Son of man.  That is why the coming of Jesus in Rev 19 takes place AFTER the declaration of the 7th Trumpet found in Rev 11. It is also why Jesus says in Luke 21 that it is only after "... you see all these things..." that the kingdom of God is then and only then,  near.

Luk 21:31 KJV So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

John also tells us that Satan's removal from heaven is a necessary precursor to the coming kingdom of God on earth. 

Rev 12:10 KJV And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

As I have already pointed out, Satan could not be cast out until after the death of Jesus.   And that casting out constitutes an execution of authority by Jesus,  given to him by the Father... not yet given.   And it is only then that Satan's "short time" has been reduced to time, times,  and half a time, when he will be placed in the bottomless pit for "1000 years".  Which will also be the beginning of Jesus' 1000 year reign.   We have a dual,  but separate identifications of a thousand years: the kingdom  rule of Jesus and Satan being locked in the pit.  Both of which don't start until the coming of Jesus in Rev 19.  To which the Olivet discourse identifies this future kingdom of God as being future to all these things happening first. 

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

 

Thanks for the response, we disagree

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

[truth7t7]

1 hour ago, Da Puppers said:

2nd coming is a term that I don't like to use because it creates semantic dyslexia.   Most people, regardless of their rapture aversion,  refer only to Armageddon.   But I already stated,  that Hebrews 9:28 refers to his 2nd appearing as "our salvation", when the righteous are given immortality.

  In accordance with Psalm 110, Jesus sits as the prince,  heir in waiting to when God shall give reigning authority to the one sitting at his right hand.  That "reigning authority " is identified in Psa 110 by the phrase,  "... until I make your enemies your footstool. "  1Cor15:25 states that God the Father will continue to reign until He places ALL enemies under his feet. ⁴

There is no coming of Jesus of any kind mentioned with the blowing of the 7th Trumpet.   It is only there by eisegetic interpretation.   There is nothing in Rev 19 to tie it to Rev 11 except eisegesis.   Psalm 110 goes on to say that God will send "the rod of thy strength" to Zion to rule in the midst of his enemies.   This is why the apostle Paul uses the phrase,  "out of Zion" in the following: 

Rom 11:26 KJV And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come OUT OF SION  the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Then the "blindness in part" will end for Israel and thus,  all Israel shall be saved.   Isa 6 also identifies the end of Israel's blindness with a "great forsaking in the land" and the cities (of Israel) being "without inhabitant".  The Day of Christ,  of 2 Thess 2, is to be preceded by this falling away/ removal of the ungodly from the house of Jacob.   The parousia of Christ in 2Thess2:1 is "his appearing/ coming".  The "gathering together" is the gathering of the elect,  found in Matt 24:31, that takes place after Jesus is seen "coming in the clouds of heaven" of verse 30.   Reiterating Luke 21, it is only after Jesus comes with glory that the kingdom of God then becomes near. 

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

 

Revelation 11:15 in the 7th Trump sees the end of this world in final judgement

Revelation 11:18 & Revelation 20:11-15 are the same final judgement in parallel teachings

Revelation 11:18KJV

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

[transmogrified]

Hi The PuP-

   Daniel told Nebucadnezzar his dream saying he saw a great image with Nebucadnezzar   being the head of gold on down through the silver, the brass, the iron and down to the feet of  iron and clay.

When the stone hit the image on the feet all the kingdoms came down and became as the chaff of the summer threshing floor and the stone became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.

This was a prophecy showing that God would break in pieces and consume the kingdoms of this world and that they would become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ.

When Jesus returns he smites the image on the feet which represent the ten kings  that rule one hour with the beast.

Where is the scripture that shows Jesus doing this and when does it happen?

Thank you - Gary

 

[transmogrified]

10 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

AT THAT TIME,  some will be resurrected.   Some to everlasting life,  some to everlasting contempt. 

It says many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to everlasting shame and contempt.

The thing that sometimes gets misunderstood is the word 'many.' The word 'many' here is a grammatical figure called a synecdoche, where a word that refers to a part of something is used figuratively to represent the entirety of that thing.

For example, when Paul said because of 'one mans disobedience  'many' were made sinners,' it does not mean only some of them were made sinners while others were not. No, it specifically says 'all have sinned.' 

Other translations make this a bit easier to understand by saying 'multitudes' of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake...' where the meaning is made clear that the amount of people that will be resurrected will be great.

So in context of Daniel 12:3, it says 'at that time,' multitudes of those that sleep in the dust of the earth  will awake. When does this resurrection take place? 

 

[truth7t7]

15 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

It will only be fulfilled when God the Son is no longer reigning with executive authority. 

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

Yes when Jesus Christ returns death is swallowed up in the resurrection of all, at this time all rule and authority is given to the father

As scripture clearly teaches below in 1 Corinthinas 15:23-24 , when Jesus Christ returns then comes (The End)

Many disregard (Then Cometh The End) as they desire to see a mortal Millennial Kingdom on earth, after the coming of Jesus Christ, that will never take place

(Then Cometh The End) As (Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)

Afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, not a Millennial Kingdom on this earth as many claim

(Then Cometh The End)

(Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)

1 Corinthians 15:21-26 & 51-54KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

[truth7t7]

27 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

It says many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to everlasting shame and contempt.

The thing that sometimes gets misunderstood is the word 'many.' The word 'many' here is a grammatical figure called a synecdoche, where a word that refers to a part of something is used figuratively to represent the entirety of that thing.

For example, when Paul said because of 'one mans disobedience  'many' were made sinners,' it does not mean only some of them were made sinners while others were not. No, it specifically says 'all have sinned.' 

Other translations make this a bit easier to understand by saying 'multitudes' of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake...' where the meaning is made clear that the amount of people that will be resurrected will be great.

So in context of Daniel 12:3, it says 'at that time,' multitudes of those that sleep in the dust of the earth  will awake. When does this resurrection take place? 

 

There is one time of resurrection for all, this takes place on the (Last Day) at the Second Coming of Jesus Christ

There are (Two) resurrections on this (Last Day) the righteous are blessed to be in the (First Resurrection) to eternal life, on such the (Second) death resurrection has no power.

1.) (First) Resurrection To Life
2.) (Second) Resurrection To Damnation, The Second Death

(Revelation) 20:6KJV
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The (Last Day) Resurrection Of All Below

(John) 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

There is one time of resurrection for all, this takes place on the (Last Day) at the Second Coming of Jesus Christ

There are (Two) resurrections on this (Last Day) the righteous are blessed to be in the (First Resurrection) to eternal life, on such the (Second) death resurrection has no power.

1.) (First) Resurrection To Life
2.) (Second) Resurrection To Damnation, The Second Death

(Revelation) 20:6KJV
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The (Last Day) Resurrection Of All Below

(John) 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Daniel 12:2KJV

1 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

(John) 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(1 Corinthians) 15:21-24KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The (Last Day) Judgement

(John) 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Edited January 10, 2022 by truth7t7

[truth7t7]

4 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

You are intermingling the judgment to be executed by the Son, the resurrection of life and damnation with the executing of judgment by the Father's promise,  the new heavens and new earth.   

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

Your disregarding the very simple and clear teaching of scripture

When Jesus Christ returns (Then Cometh The End) not a Millennial Kingdom on this earth

In Love, Jesus Is The Lord