Will The New Heaven And Earth Have The Lake Of Fire Present?

[missmuffet]

16 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

Tell that to the rich man in Hell, who mistreated Lazarus below

Luke 16:22-24KJV

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

No, the rich man was not in a literal "hell" he was in Hades. 

The different terms used in the Bible for heaven and hell—sheol, hades, gehenna, the lake of fire, paradise, and Abraham’s bosom—are the subject of much debate and can be confusing.

The word paradise is used as a synonym for heaven (2 Corinthians 12:3–4; Revelation 2:7). When Jesus was dying on the cross and one of the thieves being crucified with Him asked Him for mercy, Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:43). Jesus knew that His death was imminent and that He would soon be in heaven with His Father. Therefore, Jesus used paradise as a synonym for heaven, and the word has come to be associated with any place of ideal loveliness and delight.

Abraham’s bosom is referred to only once in the Bible—in the story of Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16:19–31). Abraham’s bosom was used in the Talmud as a synonym for heaven. The image in the story is of Lazarus reclining at a table leaning on Abraham’s breast—as John leaned on Jesus’ breast at the Last Supper—at the heavenly banquet. The point of the story is that wicked men will see the righteous in a happy state, while they themselves are in torment, and that a “great gulf” that can never be spanned exists between them (Luke 16:26). Abraham’s bosom is obviously a place of peace, rest, and joy—in other words, paradise.

In the Hebrew Scriptures, the word used to describe the realm of the dead is sheol. It simply means “the place of the dead” or “the place of departed souls/spirits.” The New Testament Greek equivalent to sheol is hades, which is also a general reference to “the place of the dead.” The Greek word gehenna is used in the New Testament for “hell” and is derived from the Hebrew word hinnom. Other Scriptures in the New Testament indicated that sheol/hades is a temporary place where souls are kept as they await the final resurrection. The souls of the righteous, at death, go directly into the presence of God—the part of sheol called “heaven,” “paradise,” or “Abraham’s bosom” (Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 1:23).

The lake of fire, mentioned only in Revelation 19:20 and 20:10, 14-15, is the final hell, the place of eternal punishment for all unrepentant rebels, both angelic and human (Matthew 25:41). It is described as a place of burning sulfur, and those in it experience eternal, unspeakable agony of an unrelenting nature (Luke 16:24; Mark 9:45-46). Those who have rejected Christ and are in the temporary abode of the dead in hades/sheol have the lake of fire as their final destination.

But those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life should have no fear of this terrible fate. By faith in Christ and His blood shed on the cross for our sins, we are destined to live eternally in the presence of God.

https://www.gotquestions.org/sheol-hades-hell.html

Edited January 17, 2022 by missmuffet

[truth7t7]

2 hours ago, missmuffet said:

No, the rich man was not in a literal "hell" he was in Hades. 

The different terms used in the Bible for heaven and hell—sheol, hades, gehenna, the lake of fire, paradise, and Abraham’s bosom—are the subject of much debate and can be confusing.

The word paradise is used as a synonym for heaven (2 Corinthians 12:3–4; Revelation 2:7). When Jesus was dying on the cross and one of the thieves being crucified with Him asked Him for mercy, Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:43). Jesus knew that His death was imminent and that He would soon be in heaven with His Father. Therefore, Jesus used paradise as a synonym for heaven, and the word has come to be associated with any place of ideal loveliness and delight.

Abraham’s bosom is referred to only once in the Bible—in the story of Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16:19–31). Abraham’s bosom was used in the Talmud as a synonym for heaven. The image in the story is of Lazarus reclining at a table leaning on Abraham’s breast—as John leaned on Jesus’ breast at the Last Supper—at the heavenly banquet. The point of the story is that wicked men will see the righteous in a happy state, while they themselves are in torment, and that a “great gulf” that can never be spanned exists between them (Luke 16:26). Abraham’s bosom is obviously a place of peace, rest, and joy—in other words, paradise.

In the Hebrew Scriptures, the word used to describe the realm of the dead is sheol. It simply means “the place of the dead” or “the place of departed souls/spirits.” The New Testament Greek equivalent to sheol is hades, which is also a general reference to “the place of the dead.” The Greek word gehenna is used in the New Testament for “hell” and is derived from the Hebrew word hinnom. Other Scriptures in the New Testament indicated that sheol/hades is a temporary place where souls are kept as they await the final resurrection. The souls of the righteous, at death, go directly into the presence of God—the part of sheol called “heaven,” “paradise,” or “Abraham’s bosom” (Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 1:23).

The lake of fire, mentioned only in Revelation 19:20 and 20:10, 14-15, is the final hell, the place of eternal punishment for all unrepentant rebels, both angelic and human (Matthew 25:41). It is described as a place of burning sulfur, and those in it experience eternal, unspeakable agony of an unrelenting nature (Luke 16:24; Mark 9:45-46). Those who have rejected Christ and are in the temporary abode of the dead in hades/sheol have the lake of fire as their final destination.

But those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life should have no fear of this terrible fate. By faith in Christ and His blood shed on the cross for our sins, we are destined to live eternally in the presence of God.

https://www.gotquestions.org/sheol-hades-hell.html

No confusion whatsoever, the rich man was in Hell, and this Hell is where the wicked unsaved go to presently when they die, feel free to believe as you wish

My King James Bible says "Hell" and that's exactly where it's at, simple and very easy to understand

[AdHoc]

10 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

A simple question and a novel off topic response pushing Dual Covenant Theology

I disagree with you placing (Two Groups) of Gods people in the Eternal Kingdom, as you continue to push (Dual Covenant Theology) Jew/Church

God has one people, his Church, where there is neither Jew/Greek

I think that you have developed a stronghold where you have a problem and then you attribute the problem to somebody else. Then you lambaste that somebody. Who said anything about Dual Covenant theology? If New Jerusalem has walls based on the Twelve Apostles, and is the Tabernacle of God, it is the Church. It is THERE that there is no Jew nor Greek. But then it has Twelve GATES which have the names of the twelve Tribes of Israel, then it is here that there are Jews and no Greeks. And if outside the City are the Nations trying to bring their glory into the City, it is here that there are Greeks but no Jews. You just recently posted a posting on Ezekiel 48 in which you said as much.

Now, let's enumerate the Covenants.

1. Noah - "with all flesh" (Gen.9:9)
2. Abraham - That of Promise for multiple blessings
3. Moses with Israel - That of Law
4. The New Covenant of Law - that with Israel when they are united again (Jer.31:31-33)

Where then is Dual Covenants in this?

[truth7t7]

5 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

I think that you have developed a stronghold where you have a problem and then you attribute the problem to somebody else. Then you lambaste that somebody. Who said anything about Dual Covenant theology? If New Jerusalem has walls based on the Twelve Apostles, and is the Tabernacle of God, it is the Church. It is THERE that there is no Jew nor Greek. But then it has Twelve GATES which have the names of the twelve Tribes of Israel, then it is here that there are Jews and no Greeks. And if outside the City are the Nations trying to bring their glory into the City, it is here that there are Greeks but no Jews. You just recently posted a posting on Ezekiel 48 in which you said as much.

Now, let's enumerate the Covenants.

1. Noah - "with all flesh" (Gen.9:9)
2. Abraham - That of Promise for multiple blessings
3. Moses with Israel - That of Law
4. The New Covenant of Law - that with Israel when they are united again (Jer.31:31-33)

Where then is Dual Covenants in this?

Your teaching is error, you fail to see the Church is the Israel of God, your problem

There aren't two groups, there is one (The Church) the Israel of God

Gods words clearly show (Two Israel's) below

1.) Israel of the flesh (Jews)

2.) Israel of the promised seed (Church)

Scripture clearly teaches Israel of the flesh, they aren't the children of God, it's that simple

Romans 9:6-8KJV

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Yes the Kingdom of God has been taken from National Ethnic Israel, And Given To The Church, a "Holy Nation" as clearly seen below

Matthew 21:43KJV

3 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

1 Peter 2:9KJV

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Edited January 17, 2022 by truth7t7

[missmuffet]

12 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

No confusion whatsoever, the rich man was in Hell, and this Hell is where the wicked unsaved go to presently when they die, feel free to believe as you wish

My King James Bible says "Hell" and that's exactly where it's at, simple and very easy to understand

Suit yourself. The Word of God is not going to change your mind. 

[AdHoc]

On 1/17/2022 at 6:54 AM, truth7t7 said:

No confusion whatsoever, the rich man was in Hell, and this Hell is where the wicked unsaved go to presently when they die, feel free to believe as you wish

My King James Bible says "Hell" and that's exactly where it's at, simple and very easy to understand

Perhaps a word study would clear the matter.

23 And in hell (Strong's #86) he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Strong's #86 in Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words

hades (ᾅδης, 86), ... it has been unhappily rendered “hell,” e.g., Ps. 16:10; or “the grave,” e.g., Gen. 37:35; or “the pit,” Num. 16:30, 33; in the NT the revisers have always used the rendering “hades”;...

The word is used four times in the Gospels, and always by the Lord, Matt. 11:23; 16:18; Luke 10:15; 16:23; it is used with reference to the soul of Christ, Acts 2:27, 31;...

(Vine, W. E., Unger, M. F., & White, W., Jr. (1996).

 

[AdHoc]

On 1/17/2022 at 12:04 PM, truth7t7 said:

Your teaching is error, you fail to see the Church is the Israel of God, your problem

There aren't two groups, there is one (The Church) the Israel of God

Gods words clearly show (Two Israel's) below

1.) Israel of the flesh (Jews)

2.) Israel of the promised seed (Church)

Scripture clearly teaches Israel of the flesh, they aren't the children of God, it's that simple

Romans 9:6-8KJV

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Yes the Kingdom of God has been taken from National Ethnic Israel, And Given To The Church, a "Holy Nation" as clearly seen below

Matthew 21:43KJV

3 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

1 Peter 2:9KJV

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

You have based your theory on two pillars, both which, on examination will crumble.

1: Romans 9:6-9 is only obscure because students approach it with a preconceived idea. Let us examine it in the light of Romans Chapter 1 to 8. Paul has built a case for all men to be under sin and in need of salvation by having sins put away and faith in Christ. Since Israel refused Christ, the next bog question Paul must answer is; The Covenant with Abraham promises the Land of Canaan to Israel for an "everlasting possession". But the curses of the Law have dispossessed Israel of the Land. What future has Israel then if they remain in unbelief?

The first five verses of Roman's 9 define Israel. They are all Paul's brethren "according to the flesh". That is, every descendant from Jacob who has not been born another way. This implies that there is another people who are Paul's brethren, BUT NOT ACCORDING TO THE FLESH. Verses 6 to 9 say who:

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

How can a man be NOT part of Israel when he is OF Israel? Only one way. Be born of Jacobs line in the womb (makes him OF Israel), but born again by the Spirit (makes him NOT Israel but a son of God)

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

The objector will then say, but the promises as not to Jacob but to Abraham and he brought forth multiple nations? To this answers the fact that no son of Israel outside the line of Isaac received the Promises. Esau is firstborn of this line, but sells his birthright in a legal, but despicable deal. Thus the line of Promise is Abraham - Isaac - Jacob

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

The phrase "that is" explains verse 7. Ishmael, Esau and the sons of Kerturah are "sons according to the flesh" and receive a blessing but not the Promises. This leaves THREE peoples, or three seeds of Abraham;

1. The seed which is via Ishmael and Kerturah - the Nations that "came out of Abraham"
2. The seed which is via Isaac via Jacob - the Nation of Israel
3. The seed which was via Jacob, making them Israel, but who believed and are now not Israel but the New Man by a new birth which makes them exclusively "sons of God"

These verses do not created TWO Israels. They created the scenario where men who were Israel are, by faith, not Israel anymore but sons of God.

2: You stand or fall in the matter of "THE Israel of God" in Galatians 6:16

And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Throughout the gospels, and throughout the New Testament Israel is CONTRASTED with the Church. And this very pronounced in the Book of Galatians. Christian ex-Jews came to the Churches of Galatia and taught that it was good to believe in Messiah, but that perfection, or maturity came from keeping the Law. Paul vehemently denies this. The Law addresses the FLESH and the flesh is corrupted and doomed (Romans Chapter 7). The way a man is sanctified in his disposition is by the Holy Spirit (2nd Cor.3:18). Throughout Galatians Israel and the Church are pitted AGAINST each other, right down to the point where their ORIGIN is compared. Israel came from the FLESH and is typified by Hagar, and the Church came into being by the working of the holy Spirit on a barren woman.

Israel's unbelief hit Paul hard as we see in Romans 9:1-5. He prayed for, and wanted to preach Christ to them. His heart was sore for Israel because they had refused their Messiah. So after six Chapters of COMPARING Israel and the Church, he wants to end his letter with a blessing. And he blesses that entity that "is a new creature where circumcision does not avail" - the Church, AND he blesses the Israel of God. The word "and" ("kai" in the Greek) that I have made red above, is a CONJUNCTION. The word "and" is (i) copulative - it joins different entities without making them one, (ii) it is cumulative - it accumulates additional entities and (iii) it is sequential - it introduces a sequence. Example; "The explosives AND the detonator (two different things) were prepared. Current was sent to the detonator AND the explosives ignited (a sequence)" 

By the simple laws of grammar the "New Man" is one thing AND Israel is a second. Two independent entities are shown throughout the New Testament right up to New Jerusalem where one is the walls of the City and one is the Gates. Two independent and OPPOSING entities are the subject of the whole book of Galatians. And these TWO are individually blessed in 6:16.

The Church is NEVER connected to Israel throughout the New Testament. In point#1, if an Israelite embraces Christ he is not an Israelite any more, but a New Creature. In Point #2 above Israel is CONTRASTED in every mention when the Church is in view:

• Israel of Jacob's flesh - the Church of a new birth by the Holy Spirit
• Israel under the Law - the Church under grace
• Israel led by the Law - the Church led by the Holy Spirit
• Israel in unbelief - the Church in faith
• Israel typified by Hagar - the Church by Isaac
• Israel eligible to the Promises by being IN Jacob - the Church by being IN Christ

[truth7t7]

18 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

You have based your theory on two pillars, both which, on examination will crumble.

1: Romans 9:6-9 is only obscure because students approach it with a preconceived idea. Let us examine it in the light of Romans Chapter 1 to 8. Paul has built a case for all men to be under sin and in need of salvation by having sins put away and faith in Christ. Since Israel refused Christ, the next bog question Paul must answer is; The Covenant with Abraham promises the Land of Canaan to Israel for an "everlasting possession". But the curses of the Law have dispossessed Israel of the Land. What future has Israel then if they remain in unbelief?

The first five verses of Roman's 9 define Israel. They are all Paul's brethren "according to the flesh". That is, every descendant from Jacob who has not been born another way. This implies that there is another people who are Paul's brethren, BUT NOT ACCORDING TO THE FLESH. Verses 6 to 9 say who:

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

How can a man be NOT part of Israel when he is OF Israel? Only one way. Be born of Jacobs line in the womb (makes him OF Israel), but born again by the Spirit (makes him NOT Israel but a son of God)

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

The objector will then say, but the promises as not to Jacob but to Abraham and he brought forth multiple nations? To this answers the fact that no son of Israel outside the line of Isaac received the Promises. Esau is firstborn of this line, but sells his birthright in a legal, but despicable deal. Thus the line of Promise is Abraham - Isaac - Jacob

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

The phrase "that is" explains verse 7. Ishmael, Esau and the sons of Kerturah are "sons according to the flesh" and receive a blessing but not the Promises. This leaves THREE peoples, or three seeds of Abraham;

1. The seed which is via Ishmael and Kerturah - the Nations that "came out of Abraham"
2. The seed which is via Isaac via Jacob - the Nation of Israel
3. The seed which was via Jacob, making them Israel, but who believed and are now not Israel but the New Man by a new birth which makes them exclusively "sons of God"

These verses do not created TWO Israels. They created the scenario where men who were Israel are, by faith, not Israel anymore but sons of God.

2: You stand or fall in the matter of "THE Israel of God" in Galatians 6:16

And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Throughout the gospels, and throughout the New Testament Israel is CONTRASTED with the Church. And this very pronounced in the Book of Galatians. Christian ex-Jews came to the Churches of Galatia and taught that it was good to believe in Messiah, but that perfection, or maturity came from keeping the Law. Paul vehemently denies this. The Law addresses the FLESH and the flesh is corrupted and doomed (Romans Chapter 7). The way a man is sanctified in his disposition is by the Holy Spirit (2nd Cor.3:18). Throughout Galatians Israel and the Church are pitted AGAINST each other, right down to the point where their ORIGIN is compared. Israel came from the FLESH and is typified by Hagar, and the Church came into being by the working of the holy Spirit on a barren woman.

Israel's unbelief hit Paul hard as we see in Romans 9:1-5. He prayed for, and wanted to preach Christ to them. His heart was sore for Israel because they had refused their Messiah. So after six Chapters of COMPARING Israel and the Church, he wants to end his letter with a blessing. And he blesses that entity that "is a new creature where circumcision does not avail" - the Church, AND he blesses the Israel of God. The word "and" ("kai" in the Greek) that I have made red above, is a CONJUNCTION. The word "and" is (i) copulative - it joins different entities without making them one, (ii) it is cumulative - it accumulates additional entities and (iii) it is sequential - it introduces a sequence. Example; "The explosives AND the detonator (two different things) were prepared. Current was sent to the detonator AND the explosives ignited (a sequence)" 

By the simple laws of grammar the "New Man" is one thing AND Israel is a second. Two independent entities are shown throughout the New Testament right up to New Jerusalem where one is the walls of the City and one is the Gates. Two independent and OPPOSING entities are the subject of the whole book of Galatians. And these TWO are individually blessed in 6:16.

The Church is NEVER connected to Israel throughout the New Testament. In point#1, if an Israelite embraces Christ he is not an Israelite any more, but a New Creature. In Point #2 above Israel is CONTRASTED in every mention when the Church is in view:

• Israel of Jacob's flesh - the Church of a new birth by the Holy Spirit
• Israel under the Law - the Church under grace
• Israel led by the Law - the Church led by the Holy Spirit
• Israel in unbelief - the Church in faith
• Israel typified by Hagar - the Church by Isaac
• Israel eligible to the Promises by being IN Jacob - the Church by being IN Christ

It's very simple, all promises and covenants made to Abraham were fulfilled in Jesus Christ "Seed" Singular, end of debate

Galatians 3:16KJV

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

 

Edited January 19, 2022 by truth7t7

[AdHoc]

10 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

It's very simple, all promises and covenants made to Abraham were fulfilled in Jesus Christ "Seed" Singular, end of debate

Galatians 3:16KJV

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

 

But it is not so simple - is it? To Abraham are promised;

1. A Seed (singular - which you mention above)
2. Seed as the sand of the sea-shore
3. Seed as the stars of heaven
4. Seed which became many nations

In the very same Chapter, in verse 29, we who are Christ's are "SEED (plural) of Abraham and HEIRS (plural). So you have three options;

1. Withdraw your doctrine based on one verse until you have studied the matter further to include the whole Bible
2. Remain in an obviously untenable position
3. Expose, now, the matter in a short, or long commentary here and now.

[truth7t7]

6 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

But it is not so simple - is it? To Abraham are promised;

1. A Seed (singular - which you mention above)
2. Seed as the sand of the sea-shore
3. Seed as the stars of heaven
4. Seed which became many nations

In the very same Chapter, in verse 29, we who are Christ's are "SEED (plural) of Abraham and HEIRS (plural). So you have three options;

1. Withdraw your doctrine based on one verse until you have studied the matter further to include the whole Bible
2. Remain in an obviously untenable position
3. Expose, now, the matter in a short, or long commentary here and now.

You aren't going to divert attention away from Jesus Christ the "Seed" who fulfilled all covenants and promises made to Abraham, yes it's that simple!

Sand as the sea, stars of heaven, many nations, are through the "Seed" singular, you haven't pulled the wool over my eyes!

Galatians 3:16KJV

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Edited January 19, 2022 by truth7t7