Revelation Chapter 13 -

[Bold Believer]

You mean 6, 7, and 8th HEADS? There were only 4 beast-nations.

Reckoning from Julius Caesar, the 6th head was Nero, then Galba (who lasted only a little while per John and history) and Galba was replaced by Otho, then Vitellus, then Titus Vespasian, who happened to be the father of General Titus, the commander of the Roman Armies which took Jerusalem. Galba, Otho and Vitellus are referred to in history as the pocket emperors, because none of them lasted long due to the civil war after Nero's death. Nero is the 6th and Vespasian the 7th full emperor. Vespasian was the emperor at the siege of Jerusalem.

Re 17:11

And the beast

that was, and is not, even

he is the eighth

, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

[/quote}

Vespasian. Galba is considered by historians to be the seventh. Otho and Vitellus didn't really reign. Galba BARELY reigned. Nero is called a beast (and early Christians called him THE Beast) so John's reference to more beasts doesn't surprise me.

.

Edited February 20, 2009 by Bold Believer

[Bold Believer]

OK, not sure why the answer didn't come out, but...

Vespasian is the eighth who is 'of the seventh'. He actually reigned. Galba BARELY reigned, the reign of the other two pocket emperors was negligible. John refers to Nero as a beast (personification), so the idea of referring to subsequent emperors as beasts is no surprise. The leader of a nation is often used to personify it.

[BlindSeeker]

OK, not sure why the answer didn't come out, but...

Vespasian is the eighth who is 'of the seventh'. He actually reigned. Galba BARELY reigned, the reign of the other two pocket emperors was negligible. John refers to Nero as a beast (personification), so the idea of referring to subsequent emperors as beasts is no surprise. The leader of a nation is often used to personify it.

Before you were adamant there were only 4 beast / kingdoms / heads, but now consent to there is an 8th. Please share with us then progressively how chapters 13-18 then historically fit with Vespasian, if he is indeed the 8th.

[BlindSeeker]

You mean 6, 7, and 8th HEADS? There were only 4 beast-nations.

Mentioned in Daniel and during the duration of the writing of scripture . . .

[Celt]

I think we've been here before on this topic in another thread...

Our Lord Jesus Christ describes the symbols of Revelation 13 in Chapter 17.

The "waters" is about the beast that comes out of the "sea" in Rev.13:1, and Jesus told John it represents, "peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues" (Rev.17:15).

Rev 17:12-14

12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

(KJV)

Our Lord's Message that He is The One Who will overcome those ten kings, along with His chosen and called, which points to the very last days at the second coming. It's about the battle of Armageddon that will occur at Christ's coming per Rev.16. That has yet to occur. That MOVES this Message about the beasts of Rev.13 to the very last days, our future even.

Another proof of that is how God's two witnesses are to appear in Jerusalem in the last days per Rev.11, and the 'beast' that ascends up out of the bottomless pit is to kill them, and let their bodies lay in the street of Jerusalem. THAT event has NEVER happened yet in history. It's because it's still yet a future event, and signals the very last woe and 7th trumpet coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the gathering of His saints to Him.

In Rev.13, there are two different 'beasts' mentioned.

Rev 13:11-15

11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

This "another beast" that John saw was different than the first beast of Rev.13:1. This second beast is about an entity, a man who comes to have power over the first beast.

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

(KJV)

In 2 Thessalonians 2, the apostle Paul warned that before Christ's coming and the gathering of the saints, a false one must first come, sitting in the Temple of God, showing himself that he is God, working great wonders and signs on the earth to deceive many into falling away.

2 Thess. 2:1-4

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

(KJV)

Compare the working of that false one with the "another beast" working in Rev.13.

2 Thess. 2:8-10

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

(KJV)

In 2 Thess.2:8, we are shown Who defeats that false one with the brightness of His coming, i.e., Christ Jesus. Only then will "that Wicked" one be revealed to the whole world for who he truly is. That's the same timing of Rev.17:14 when the ten kings will make war with The Lamb (Jesus Christ) at the battle of Armageddon.

That "another beast", or second beast, ascends up out of the earth, and that's a direct link to that beast of Rev.11 that ascends up out of the bottomless pit to kill God's two witnesses in Jerusalem during the very last days. That "another beast" is associated with the title of "dragon". We were already told who the "dragon" is in the previous Chapter, strange how some folk's memory is very short...

Rev 12:7-12

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

The identity of the "dragon" is the devil himself, Satan. Men's doctrines try to say something different, but who wants to listen to men's doctrines anyway?

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night."

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

(KJV)

Woe to the inhabiters of the earth, AND of the sea? Where was that bit of info given about the "sea"? Back at Rev.13:1 about the "sea" which Christ said means peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues.

Scripture is saying the devil, i.e., the "dragon", de facto, is going to be cast down to this earth with his angels after a war in Heaven. And, he knows he has but a short time. A short time for what? To make war with the saints, those who have the Testimony of Jesus Christ and those which keep the commandments of God (Rev.12:17). Rev.12 links that timing to the 1260 days of the Book of Daniel. Christ also linked the "abomination of desolation" event from the Book of Daniel with a false one coming to Jerusalem and placing an idol in the 'holy place', and warning His servants to not believe on that false one as Christ (Matthew 24 and Mark 13). Many will believe the devil himself is God, sitting in the Temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Note how the 'historicist' and 'preterist' views always attempt to run circles around those direct Bible links above, as if they already know it but want to steer around it, or discredit it.

[BlindSeeker]

Note how the 'historicist' and 'preterist' views always attempt to run circles around those direct Bible links above, as if they already know it but want to steer around it, or discredit it.

Perhaps Celt you would kindly explain your words above and the reason you felt it was necessary to state them.

Then I will address some aspects of your post.

[Emanuel]

What the Earthman declares (thoughts, words and deeds) in his/her Soul ------- over a period of his/her lifetime; is vital to his/her ultimately receiving, either the [1] "Mark of the Lamb" or [2] "Mark of the Beast";

whether these thoughts, words and deeds be [1] Dependent on God or [2] Independent of God.

When the Earth mans' THOUGHTS, WORDS AND DEEDS are independent of God over a period of his/her lifetime; he/she ultimately receives the "Mark of the Beast". (Rev.13:16,17) <<< THE ENTIRE BOOK OF REVELATION IS A SPIRITUAL VISION!

This is not a physical mark, not a computer chip; >>>>> BUT A SPIRITUAL MARK OF OWNERSHIP!

The Mark in the "forehead" >>> in the mind and motivation; and the Mark in the "right hand" >>> in the works and deeds: "Buy and Sell" >>> World system of transaction - spirit of living independent of God.

This "Mark of the Beast" is developed in ones' Soul over period of years, sometimes without his/her control (good or bad) as long as ones' LIFESTYLE (thoughts, words and deeds) is independent of God.

The Bible declares, "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way." (2Thessalonians 2:7)

"For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?" (Mark 8:36)

"Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?" (Mark 8:37

FURTHER APOKALUPSIS ON THE BOOK OF REVELATIONS!

A spiritual vision, we should not interpret along human time-lines! In addition, not a direct indication against democracy or government but against the entire soul dimension of mankind ever has been since the fall of man in creation as being under mankind's rule by the spirit of cult-ing, the spirit of living independent of God.

This spirit of cult-ing affects from smallest minute life like remote tribes to the biggest corporation or entity man has ever known.

The indictment is against mankind - the condemned - rejecting God even Jesus Christ as Personal God consummating in the tower of babel-like cult-ing of soulish doing things oneself in thoughts, words and deeds even entering our most sacred and yet still soulish religiosity without Christ Himself:

Church without Christ or at best without His cross(all forms of culting known to mankind: hypnosis, telepathy, mind over matter, soul control, soul ties and every witch craft in the book entering the "church") which will no more be the church as preplayed in the new testament bible but rather false prophet; name them today growing into greatness eventually becoming a terror in this life.

As you will discern this prophecy is greater than any one entity. It is a great culmination of all that is secular forces against God and all that is religious forces - falsely so against God deceiving humankind that they are so. Humankind complete in his/her independence from God!(666)

Even those who have been so deceived thereby would be so deceived by their hypnosis e.g. scientology oops and terror control that they would have received a pattern of thinking without the real Christ and His cross which is the crucified life against every easy way to life.

These deceived ones, the bible say receive the Mark of the beast on their right hand - works and deeds and on their forehead - mind, motivation.

Note this Mark is NOT a physical mark and NOT a computer chip, but a spiritual Mark of ownership on the souls of the condemned who reject Christ.

Think of things like being bribed, threatened or/and seduced to do bad things you will not do because of your moral beliefs now but then will be in a more hypnotic grander scale.

Also think of entities now that would change moral laws to suit their modern age lifestyle. These are all the baby stages of the anti-christ worship: Against Christ and His cross!

This apocalypse of the culmination of both the body of the Antichrist (The Condemned - including its dead since the fall of mankind) on the one hand;

And the culmination of the body of Christ (The Saved - including its dead since the fall of mankind) on the other hand both rising in absolute perfection one against Christ and the other for Christ, will be the final closure for the coming apostasy.

"Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son." 1 John 2:18,22

For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 2 John 7

There is hope for the - Condemned - [With God all things are possible (Mark 10: 26,27)]; to receive Jesus(Christ) even on their death bed(Gods Door Is Always Open)! However, more difficult due to a life long pharoah-ic hardening of heart against the Quality of Christ Presence: Holiness!

Just as the lifelong progress - capacity to do good - of the Saved soul is his/her inheritance in the kingdom of God: Spiritual Mark or rank of ownership is the 'Mark of the lamb'.

So also, the lifelong progress - capacity to do evil - of the condemned soul is his/her inheritance in the kingdom of darkness via the works of the flesh: Spiritual Mark or rank of ownership is the 'Mark of the beast'.

Note the Works are NOT the Mark themselves but a physical attribute as to the growth of the Soul or one's experiences of God on the one hand and one's experiences of darkness via mind, motivation and works on the other!

The only way out for the Condemned and the Lost is to be beheaded for Christ i.e. to put the old man Adam to death by receiving Jesus(Christ) as personal God - a Spiritual beheading - and living for Him (practical Holiness)!

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Rev.20:4

BUYING WITHOUT MONEY

Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. Isaiah 55:1

Others have hyped about the waters representing our eternal life, the milk representing the sincere word of God, the wine representing our complete forgiveness of our sins, giving us daily gladness to enjoy life, however nothing said about the buying itself as in worship.

Spiritually we do NOT buy directly with money! We buy with our individual souls! Money in this our physical dimension is an indirect means of transaction representing a significant part of our soul energy.

Therefore, when you see that kid or teenager playing with his/her video games or internet chatting for hours, they are making a transaction with their soul (mind, emotion, will). This needs to be brought home, when some say I do not have money to give or use in worship, hence I make no spiritual transaction? Yes, we all do!

The end - product is about, What we are becoming in our individual Soul.

Edited November 28, 2010 by Emanuel

[Bold Believer]

OK, not sure why the answer didn't come out, but...

Vespasian is the eighth who is 'of the seventh'. He actually reigned. Galba BARELY reigned, the reign of the other two pocket emperors was negligible. John refers to Nero as a beast (personification), so the idea of referring to subsequent emperors as beasts is no surprise. The leader of a nation is often used to personify it.

Before you were adamant there were only 4 beast / kingdoms / heads, but now consent to there is an 8th. Please share with us then progressively how chapters 13-18 then historically fit with Vespasian, if he is indeed the 8th.

Daniel mentioned 4 beasts. Historically, these were:

Babylon

Media-Persia

Greece

Rome

John mentions Daniel's 4th Beast: Rome

John introduces a beast out of the Land (earth) which has the authority of the Beast before it (Rome). This land-beast is the apostate unbelieving Jewish authorities which collaborated with Rome to persecute the Church. Paul was for a short time part of that beast. This beast is not mentioned by Daniel.

John personifies Rome by using Nero, calling him a beast, and also uses subsequent emperors to personify Rome. So Galba, is the seventh and Vespasian the eighth emperor (the two so-called pocket emperors never really reigned, they wound up dead before they had the chance). Titus Vespasian restored order to the Empire which nearly fell after the death of Nero.

Rev 13 starts by describing Imperial Rome. The last of Daniel's 4 beasts is Imperial Rome. The last great world empire. Imperial Rome gets its power (dynamis), seat (thronos) and great authority (mega exousia) from the Devil himself. One of the heads was wounded. Historically, this refers to Nero. John then states that "they" worshipped the dragon (we know this is the devil) and "they" worshipped the beast (the Roman Empire, through the burning of incense to the genus of the emperor). Of course, this begs the question "who is they?" "They" is the subjects of the Empire, the people of the Empire.

The Empire gets a mouth. The mouth is Nero. Nero blasphemes the God of heaven and persecutes the Church for 42 months and in so doing speaks against God, his tabernacle (the Church) and those who dwell in heaven (Believers, because technically our living place is in heaven, see Ephesians). The mouth (Nero) makes war against the saints for 42 months and prevails over them, Nero is the undisputed head of Imperial Rome. Anyone who is NOT a Believer will worship him. Unless you believed in Christ, you worshipped Caesar, Rome, and therefore Satan.

The Land Beast has all the authority of Rome. We know from Paul that he had letters from the authorities at Jerusalem to persecute the Church. Scripture tells us that Paul 'made havoc' in the Church. The Land Beast is unique. It causes the inhabitants of the Land (Palestine/Israel) to worship the Beast. By refusing Jesus as Messiah, and assisting Rome (through Nero) in the persecution of the Church, the apostate unbelieving religious authorities at Jerusalem caused the people to worship the Beast. Burning a pinch of incense to the Emperor was de facto worship of Satan! These religious authorities made an idol of Rome (Eikon means idol or image) to the people and caused them to worship Rome (the beast which was wounded by the sword). "We have no King but Caesar!" . It was the CHIEF PRIESTS (John 19:15) and all the people (Mt 27:25, John 19:12) alike. By preferring Rome to Christ, they worshipped Satan and made Rome their idol. They received the Mark of the Beast rather than the Mark of God (Deut 6:8), their deeds and thoughts showing who their true god was.

The number of the Beast is the number of a man. The gematria system, where letters corresponded to numbers is the key here. Ksr Nrwn=666. Nero was the Emperor at the time. Nero personified Rome by his actions and imperial decrees. So did Vespasian who took over from Nero, thus 'resurrecting' Rome in sense of allowing the Empire to continue on.

[Celt]

Note how the 'historicist' and 'preterist' views always attempt to run circles around those direct Bible links above, as if they already know it but want to steer around it, or discredit it.

Perhaps Celt you would kindly explain your words above and the reason you felt it was necessary to state them.

Then I will address some aspects of your post.

Like I said. After conversing with folks on the historicist and preterist views, it doesn't take long to understand how those views are designed to skip those relevant Scriptures about a last days great tribulation that has never been before. Conversing with someone on the full preterist view is really something, because one type holds to the false idea that Christ's second coming already happenned back in 70 A.D. I was raised in a Church that mainly held to the historicist and preterist views. And when I quote relevant Scripture about a future great tribulation in the very last days, I get labeled by those as pre-trib and as a futurist. If a Scripture is yet to occur, then it is future, and most of Revelation is meant for the future from those it was first given to. I'm actually post-trib, and it's not that difficult to recognize when some event has yet to occur on the earth, like Christ's second coming and His future "thousand years" reign on earth.

It's not just about the Revelation 12 and 13 chapters, for Christ's Olivet Discourse and Paul's warnings in his Epistles also link to a particular coming "great tribulation" that has yet to occur. Yet I find historicists and preterists especially, have a difficult time admitting those Scripture examples that point to our near future about a coming great tribulation.

[BlindSeeker]

OK, not sure why the answer didn't come out, but...

Vespasian is the eighth who is 'of the seventh'. He actually reigned. Galba BARELY reigned, the reign of the other two pocket emperors was negligible. John refers to Nero as a beast (personification), so the idea of referring to subsequent emperors as beasts is no surprise. The leader of a nation is often used to personify it.

Before you were adamant there were only 4 beast / kingdoms / heads, but now consent to there is an 8th. Please share with us then progressively how chapters 13-18 then historically fit with Vespasian, if he is indeed the 8th.

Daniel mentioned 4 beasts. Historically, these were:

Babylon

Media-Persia

Greece

Rome

John mentions Daniel's 4th Beast: Rome

John introduces a beast out of the Land (earth) which has the authority of the Beast before it (Rome). This land-beast is the apostate unbelieving Jewish authorities which collaborated with Rome to persecute the Church. Paul was for a short time part of that beast. This beast is not mentioned by Daniel.

John personifies Rome by using Nero, calling him a beast, and also uses subsequent emperors to personify Rome. So Galba, is the seventh and Vespasian the eighth emperor (the two so-called pocket emperors never really reigned, they wound up dead before they had the chance). Titus Vespasian restored order to the Empire which nearly fell after the death of Nero.

Rev 13 starts by describing Imperial Rome. The last of Daniel's 4 beasts is Imperial Rome. The last great world empire. Imperial Rome gets its power (dynamis), seat (thronos) and great authority (mega exousia) from the Devil himself. One of the heads was wounded. Historically, this refers to Nero. John then states that "they" worshipped the dragon (we know this is the devil) and "they" worshipped the beast (the Roman Empire, through the burning of incense to the genus of the emperor). Of course, this begs the question "who is they?" "They" is the subjects of the Empire, the people of the Empire.

The Empire gets a mouth. The mouth is Nero. Nero blasphemes the God of heaven and persecutes the Church for 42 months and in so doing speaks against God, his tabernacle (the Church) and those who dwell in heaven (Believers, because technically our living place is in heaven, see Ephesians). The mouth (Nero) makes war against the saints for 42 months and prevails over them, Nero is the undisputed head of Imperial Rome. Anyone who is NOT a Believer will worship him. Unless you believed in Christ, you worshipped Caesar, Rome, and therefore Satan.

The Land Beast has all the authority of Rome. We know from Paul that he had letters from the authorities at Jerusalem to persecute the Church. Scripture tells us that Paul 'made havoc' in the Church. The Land Beast is unique. It causes the inhabitants of the Land (Palestine/Israel) to worship the Beast. By refusing Jesus as Messiah, and assisting Rome (through Nero) in the persecution of the Church, the apostate unbelieving religious authorities at Jerusalem caused the people to worship the Beast. Burning a pinch of incense to the Emperor was de facto worship of Satan! These religious authorities made an idol of Rome (Eikon means idol or image) to the people and caused them to worship Rome (the beast which was wounded by the sword). "We have no King but Caesar!" . It was the CHIEF PRIESTS (John 19:15) and all the people (Mt 27:25, John 19:12) alike. By preferring Rome to Christ, they worshipped Satan and made Rome their idol. They received the Mark of the Beast rather than the Mark of God (Deut 6:8), their deeds and thoughts showing who their true god was.

The number of the Beast is the number of a man. The gematria system, where letters corresponded to numbers is the key here. Ksr Nrwn=666. Nero was the Emperor at the time. Nero personified Rome by his actions and imperial decrees. So did Vespasian who took over from Nero, thus 'resurrecting' Rome in sense of allowing the Empire to continue on.

I disagree. See op