Will "Heathens" Be Present In The Kingdom Seen In Zechariah 14?

truth7t7 · January 29, 2022

3 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

There's a HUGE difference between one who is born blind and one who simply refuses to take off the blinders.

I agree, like looking into a mirror of truth in ones own statement

Edited January 29, 2022 by truth7t7

Retrobyter · January 29, 2022

2 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

I agree, like looking into a mirror of truth in ones own statement

Re-read my last post; I added a point you need to consider.

truth7t7 · January 29, 2022

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

There's a HUGE difference between one who is born blind and one who simply refuses to take off the blinders.

Look, David told us, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit of God, that the Messiah would reign over kings who would try to throw off His Kingship! Where do you suppose that fits in within the book of Revelation? It won't be Revelation 21 and 22. That's AFTER sin and its consequences have been dealt with!

You have clearly been shown "Several Times" Jesus Christ returns in fire and final Judgement (The End)

Yes there is fire seen below at the Lords return, to deny this would be dishonest in my opinion, and it ain't gonna be a boyscout campfire!

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Edited January 29, 2022 by truth7t7

Retrobyter · January 30, 2022

9 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

You have clearly been shown "Several Times" Jesus Christ returns in fire and final Judgement (The End)

Shalom, t7t7.

Yes, that's what you've been saying, but you're leaving out HUGE CHUNKS of Scripture to form your simplistic "truth." If you were honest, you would leave these verses in their contexts and see the bigger picture ... but that would make your "support" more ineffective. So, you can't AFFORD to leave them in their contexts! Thus, you WRENCH them out of context to make them say what you WANT them to say! That's not only deceitful, but it is POOR logic!

9 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

Yes there is fire seen below at the Lords return, to deny this would be dishonest in my opinion, and it ain't gonna be a boyscout campfire!

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

That is ENTIRELY NOT what the Scriptures say! Haven't you even read them ONCE for what the authors and THE Author intended?! Or do you ALWAYS read them for how they can support your theories?

9 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

You're entirely SKIPPING A MAJOR STEP!

Let's look at each of these passages you quote and see them in their context:

9 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Let's back this up a few verses and begin here:

2 Peter 3:3-13 (KJV)

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying,

"Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation!"

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

[THIS is when the "fire" will be! On the "day of judgment" AND "PERDITION" of ungodly men! "Perdition" means "eternal punishment" and is referring to the Lake of Fire in Revelation 20:11-15, accompanying the Great White Throne Judgment.]

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord (Yeshua`) is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

[THEN, we get to the verses you quoted:]

10 But the (1,000-year) day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. [at the END of the 1,000-year day!]
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for [anticipating] and hasting [hurrying] unto the coming of the (1,000-year) day of God, wherein (sometime in which) the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

It's not the Coming of the Lord that is "like a thief" for "every eye shall see Him!" BUT, the END of the 1,000-year Day will take people by surprise at how easily the freed dragon will be able to sway the disgruntled nations to attack the King of kings and His people! This will happen AFTER the 1,000-year lock-up of the dragon, known as "Satan." Furthermore, the 1,000-year-lock-up of the dragon doesn't begin until AFTER the Lord Yeshua` has returned and has begun His reign, which begins with the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. (See Revelation 11:15-19.)

9 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

And, He shall indeed make all things new; HOWEVER, He must reign first until all of His enemies are subdued:

(See 1 Corithians 15:20-28 and how it fits with Revelation 20-22.)

9 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Yeshua` said nothing in this passage about coming with fire. His arrival comes with the sun and the moon being darkened like an eclipse, and the meteorites falling from the sky, and the weather patterns of the skies being shaken! At that time, the sign of the Son of man (Yeshua` the Messiah) shall appear, and all the families (tribes) of the Land ("earth") shall mourn (as prophesied in Zechariah 12:).

Zechariah 12:10-14 (KJV)

10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. 11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. 12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart;
the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart;
the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart;
the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

It is from this passage of Scripture that Yeshua` quoted in Matthew 24:30 and John quoted in Revelation 1:7. In fact, John gave us a verbal link to Revelation 11:15-19. ("hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever"), the same phrase repeated in Revelation 5:13 ("Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever"). And, the words of the loud voices in the sky in Revelation 11:15 are "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

Then, the 24 elders said in Revelation 11:17-18, "We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth (Land)."

The phrase "the nations were angry" further links in Psalm 2:1-12, which I mentioned before!

9 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Again, look at this verse in its context:

1 Corinthians 3:10-15 (KJV)

10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

This is not talking about the end of the age; this is talking about the Judgment Seat of the Messiah DURING the initial 1,000 years of His reign! Notice that BOTH parties, whether builders with durable works or builders with works that shall be burned up, are built upon the FOUNDATION which is Yeshua` the Messiah! (If you will appreciate the wording better,) both parties shall be saved, because both are built upon the SURE FOUNDATION!

9 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Again, by not including other verses in the context, you've been deceptive with this quote! Let's expand it:

Luke 17:22-37 (KJV)

22 And he said unto the disciples,

"The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. 23 And they shall say to you,

"'See here!'; or,

"'see there!':

"go not after them, nor follow them. 24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. 25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

26 "And as it was in the days of Noe (Noah), so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all!

28 "Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all!

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. 31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back! 32 Remember Lot's wife! 33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life (by going back to pack) shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life (by just running) shall preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. 35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left."

37 And they answered and said unto him,

"Where, Lord?"

And he said unto them,

"Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together." [I.e., "wherever the carcass is, that's where the buzzards will gather."]

Thus, there were TWO examples prior to Yeshua` talking about the Son of man being revealed. (1) Noah and the Flood, and (2) Lot and the destruction of Sodom. Although the second was by fire and brimstone (sulfur) falling from the sky, the first was certainly NOT by fire! It was by WATER! Yeshua`s point was not to say they would face fire, but that their lives would SUDDENLY be in jeopardy!

9 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

This passage is talking about a more local vengeance! "Them that know not God" were the Gentile (non-Israeli) nations that will attack Israel, and "them that obey not the gospel of our Lord Yeshua` the Messiah," which refers to the "gospel" that He heralded! His "gospel" or "good news" was not about Himself dying, being buried, and resurrecting the third day; HIS "gospel" was the "gospel of the KINGDOM!" That is, He would announce the coming of God's Kingdom in which Yeshua` was the One Anointed to be God's King over Israel (the Messiah). His Gospel, according to Paul's letter to the Romans, was,

Joel 2:15-3:21 (KJV)

15 Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly: 16 Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet. 17 Let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people,

"Where is their God?"

18 Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity his people.

19 Yea, the LORD will answer and say unto his people,

"Behold, I will send you corn, and wine, and oil, and ye shall be satisfied therewith: and I will no more make you a reproach among the heathen: 20 But I will remove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things."

21 Fear not, O land; be glad and rejoice: for the LORD will do great things. 22 Be not afraid, ye beasts of the field: for the pastures of the wilderness do spring, for the tree beareth her fruit, the fig tree and the vine do yield their strength. 23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month. 24 And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the fats shall overflow with wine and oil.

25 "And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you. 26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed. 27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

28 "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: 29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. 30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

32 "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance," as the LORD hath said, "and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. 1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land. 3 And they have cast lots for my people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink.

4 "Yea, and what have ye to do with me, O Tyre, and Zidon, and all the coasts of Palestine? will ye render me a recompence? (LOL!) and if ye (try to) recompense me, swiftly and speedily will I return your recompence upon your OWN head; 5 Because ye have taken my silver and my gold, and have carried into your temples my goodly pleasant things: 6 The children also of Judah and the children of Jerusalem have ye sold unto the Grecians, that ye might remove them far from their border.

7 "Behold, I will raise them out of the place whither ye have sold them, and will return your recompence upon your OWN head: 8 And I will sell YOUR sons and YOUR daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off:" for the LORD hath spoken it.

9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles;

"Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up: 10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, 'I am strong!' 11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen (non-Israeli nations), and gather yourselves together round about":

"thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD."

12 "Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about. 13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great. 14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision (GOD'S decision on them; not their decision!): for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision!"

15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

17 "So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more. 18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth [out] of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim.

19 "Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.

20 "But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation. 21 For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for the LORD dwelleth in Zion."

This is why you need to read the WHOLE prophecy before passing judgment on what you should believe. It's not just "<POOF!> The End." There's MUCH of the prophecies yet to fulfill!

9 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Well, first, let's understand what "fullers' soap" is. A "fuller" is a launderer. Someone who professionally cleans clothes for others, like our dry cleaners shops. Fullers' soap is LYE SOAP! Its chemical name is "sodium hydroxide," and it's symbol is "NaOH." It's also called "caustic lye." It's a highly corrosive base that's easily dissolved in water. In high concentrations, it can "wash" the skin right off your hands!

Now, let's open up the context:

Malachi 3:1-6 (KJV)

1 "Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord (the Messiah), whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come," saith the LORD of hosts.

2 "But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: 3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness. 4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.

5 "And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me," saith the LORD of hosts.

I'm reminded of an old saying: "You can have it fast, cheap, or good. Pick any two."

This means if you want something fast and good, it will cost you, because it won't be cheap.
If you're okay with it being fast and cheap, it will be an inferior product.
If you want something to be good and cheap, it will take time. It won't be done quickly.

Good judgment is THOROUGH! Therefore, Good judgment takes TIME!
Quick judgment is SPEEDY but CAREFUL!
Cheap judgment is neither.

The point is that Yeshua`, a wiser man than Solomon, will still be careful and take whatever time is necessary to be thorough in His judgments. Being a judge is one of the offices of a King of Israel, just as Solomon was. When Yeshua` sits upon His Throne, He will be judging matters of State as well as difficult cases that could not be decided by lesser judges, who will escalate a matter they can't handle.

That's all for tonight.

truth7t7 · January 30, 2022

3 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Thus, you WRENCH them out of context to make them say what you WANT them to say! That's not only deceitful, but it is POOR logic!

That is ENTIRELY NOT what the Scriptures say! Haven't you even read them ONCE for what the authors and THE Author intended?! Or do you ALWAYS read them for how they can support your theories?

You're entirely SKIPPING A MAJOR STEP!

Let's look at each of these passages you quote and see them in their context:

Let's back this up a few verses and begin here:

2 Peter 3:3-13 (KJV)

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying,

"Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation!"

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

[THIS is when the "fire" will be! On the "day of judgment" AND "PERDITION" of ungodly men! "Perdition" means "eternal punishment" and is referring to the Lake of Fire in Revelation 20:11-15, accompanying the Great White Throne Judgment.]

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord (Yeshua`) is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

[THEN, we get to the verses you quoted:]

10 But the (1,000-year) day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. [at the END of the 1,000-year day!]
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for [anticipating] and hasting [hurrying] unto the coming of the (1,000-year) day of God, wherein (sometime in which) the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

It's not the Coming of the Lord that is "like a thief" for "every eye shall see Him!" BUT, the END of the 1,000-year Day will take people by surprise at how easily the freed dragon will be able to sway the disgruntled nations to attack the King of kings and His people! This will happen AFTER the 1,000-year lock-up of the dragon, known as "Satan." Furthermore, the 1,000-year-lock-up of the dragon doesn't begin until AFTER the Lord Yeshua` has returned and has begun His reign, which begins with the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. (See Revelation 11:15-19.)

And, He shall indeed make all things new; HOWEVER, He must reign first until all of His enemies are subdued:

(See 1 Corithians 15:20-28 and how it fits with Revelation 20-22.)

Yeshua` said nothing in this passage about coming with fire. His arrival comes with the sun and the moon being darkened like an eclipse, and the meteorites falling from the sky, and the weather patterns of the skies being shaken! At that time, the sign of the Son of man (Yeshua` the Messiah) shall appear, and all the families (tribes) of the Land ("earth") shall mourn (as prophesied in Zechariah 12:).

Zechariah 12:10-14 (KJV)

10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. 11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. 12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart;
the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart;
the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart;
the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

It is from this passage of Scripture that Yeshua` quoted in Matthew 24:30 and John quoted in Revelation 1:7. In fact, John gave us a verbal link to Revelation 11:15-19. ("hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever"), the same phrase repeated in Revelation 5:13 ("Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever"). And, the words of the loud voices in the sky in Revelation 11:15 are "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

Then, the 24 elders said in Revelation 11:17-18, "We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth (Land)."

The phrase "the nations were angry" further links in Psalm 2:1-12, which I mentioned before!

Again, look at this verse in its context:

1 Corinthians 3:10-15 (KJV)

10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

This is not talking about the end of the age; this is talking about the Judgment Seat of the Messiah DURING the initial 1,000 years of His reign! Notice that BOTH parties, whether builders with durable works or builders with works that shall be burned up, are built upon the FOUNDATION which is Yeshua` the Messiah! (If you will appreciate the wording better,) both parties shall be saved, because both are built upon the SURE FOUNDATION!

Again, by not including other verses in the context, you've been deceptive with this quote! Let's expand it:

Luke 17:22-37 (KJV)

22 And he said unto the disciples,

"The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. 23 And they shall say to you,

"'See here!'; or,

"'see there!':

"go not after them, nor follow them. 24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. 25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

26 "And as it was in the days of Noe (Noah), so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all!

28 "Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all!

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. 31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back! 32 Remember Lot's wife! 33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life (by going back to pack) shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life (by just running) shall preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. 35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left."

37 And they answered and said unto him,

"Where, Lord?"

And he said unto them,

"Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together." [I.e., "wherever the carcass is, that's where the buzzards will gather."]

Thus, there were TWO examples prior to Yeshua` talking about the Son of man being revealed. (1) Noah and the Flood, and (2) Lot and the destruction of Sodom. Although the second was by fire and brimstone (sulfur) falling from the sky, the first was certainly NOT by fire! It was by WATER! Yeshua`s point was not to say they would face fire, but that their lives would SUDDENLY be in jeopardy!

This passage is talking about a more local vengeance! "Them that know not God" were the Gentile (non-Israeli) nations that will attack Israel, and "them that obey not the gospel of our Lord Yeshua` the Messiah," which refers to the "gospel" that He heralded! His "gospel" or "good news" was not about Himself dying, being buried, and resurrecting the third day; HIS "gospel" was the "gospel of the KINGDOM!" That is, He would announce the coming of God's Kingdom in which Yeshua` was the One Anointed to be God's King over Israel (the Messiah). His Gospel, according to Paul's letter to the Romans, was,

Joel 2:15-3:21 (KJV)

15 Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly: 16 Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet. 17 Let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people,

"Where is their God?"

18 Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity his people.

19 Yea, the LORD will answer and say unto his people,

"Behold, I will send you corn, and wine, and oil, and ye shall be satisfied therewith: and I will no more make you a reproach among the heathen: 20 But I will remove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things."

21 Fear not, O land; be glad and rejoice: for the LORD will do great things. 22 Be not afraid, ye beasts of the field: for the pastures of the wilderness do spring, for the tree beareth her fruit, the fig tree and the vine do yield their strength. 23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month. 24 And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the fats shall overflow with wine and oil.

25 "And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you. 26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed. 27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

28 "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: 29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. 30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

32 "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance," as the LORD hath said, "and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. 1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land. 3 And they have cast lots for my people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink.

4 "Yea, and what have ye to do with me, O Tyre, and Zidon, and all the coasts of Palestine? will ye render me a recompence? (LOL!) and if ye (try to) recompense me, swiftly and speedily will I return your recompence upon your OWN head; 5 Because ye have taken my silver and my gold, and have carried into your temples my goodly pleasant things: 6 The children also of Judah and the children of Jerusalem have ye sold unto the Grecians, that ye might remove them far from their border.

7 "Behold, I will raise them out of the place whither ye have sold them, and will return your recompence upon your OWN head: 8 And I will sell YOUR sons and YOUR daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off:" for the LORD hath spoken it.

9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles;

"Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up: 10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, 'I am strong!' 11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen (non-Israeli nations), and gather yourselves together round about":

"thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD."

12 "Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about. 13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great. 14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision (GOD'S decision on them; not their decision!): for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision!"

15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

17 "So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more. 18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth [out] of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim.

19 "Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.

20 "But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation. 21 For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for the LORD dwelleth in Zion."

This is why you need to read the WHOLE prophecy before passing judgment on what you should believe. It's not just "<POOF!> The End." There's MUCH of the prophecies yet to fulfill!

Well, first, let's understand what "fullers' soap" is. A "fuller" is a launderer. Someone who professionally cleans clothes for others, like our dry cleaners shops. Fullers' soap is LYE SOAP! Its chemical name is "sodium hydroxide," and it's symbol is "NaOH." It's also called "caustic lye." It's a highly corrosive base that's easily dissolved in water. In high concentrations, it can "wash" the skin right off your hands!

Now, let's open up the context:

Malachi 3:1-6 (KJV)

1 "Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord (the Messiah), whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come," saith the LORD of hosts.

2 "But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: 3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness. 4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.

5 "And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me," saith the LORD of hosts.

I'm reminded of an old saying: "You can have it fast, cheap, or good. Pick any two."

This means if you want something fast and good, it will cost you, because it won't be cheap.
If you're okay with it being fast and cheap, it will be an inferior product.
If you want something to be good and cheap, it will take time. It won't be done quickly.

Good judgment is THOROUGH! Therefore, Good judgment takes TIME!
Quick judgment is SPEEDY but CAREFUL!
Cheap judgment is neither.

The point is that Yeshua`, a wiser man than Solomon, will still be careful and take whatever time is necessary to be thorough in His judgments. Being a judge is one of the offices of a King of Israel, just as Solomon was. When Yeshua` sits upon His Throne, He will be judging matters of State as well as difficult cases that could not be decided by lesser judges, who will escalate a matter they can't handle.

That's all for tonight.

My posting below is factual and true, you have claimed myself as being "Deceitful" our conversation ends here

You have clearly been shown "Several Times" Jesus Christ returns in fire and final Judgement (The End)

Yes there is fire seen below at the Lords return, to deny this would be dishonest in my opinion, and it ain't gonna be a boyscout campfire!

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Heleadethme · January 30, 2022

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, t7t7.

Yes, that's what you've been saying, but you're leaving out HUGE CHUNKS of Scripture to form your simplistic "truth." If you were honest, you would leave these verses in their contexts and see the bigger picture ... but that would make your "support" more ineffective. So, you can't AFFORD to leave them in their contexts! Thus, you WRENCH them out of context to make them say what you WANT them to say! That's not only deceitful, but it is POOR logic!

That is ENTIRELY NOT what the Scriptures say! Haven't you even read them ONCE for what the authors and THE Author intended?! Or do you ALWAYS read them for how they can support your theories?

You're entirely SKIPPING A MAJOR STEP!

Let's look at each of these passages you quote and see them in their context:

Let's back this up a few verses and begin here:

2 Peter 3:3-13 (KJV)

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying,

"Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation!"

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

[THIS is when the "fire" will be! On the "day of judgment" AND "PERDITION" of ungodly men! "Perdition" means "eternal punishment" and is referring to the Lake of Fire in Revelation 20:11-15, accompanying the Great White Throne Judgment.]

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord (Yeshua`) is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

[THEN, we get to the verses you quoted:]

10 But the (1,000-year) day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. [at the END of the 1,000-year day!]
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for [anticipating] and hasting [hurrying] unto the coming of the (1,000-year) day of God, wherein (sometime in which) the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

It's not the Coming of the Lord that is "like a thief" for "every eye shall see Him!" BUT, the END of the 1,000-year Day will take people by surprise at how easily the freed dragon will be able to sway the disgruntled nations to attack the King of kings and His people! This will happen AFTER the 1,000-year lock-up of the dragon, known as "Satan." Furthermore, the 1,000-year-lock-up of the dragon doesn't begin until AFTER the Lord Yeshua` has returned and has begun His reign, which begins with the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. (See Revelation 11:15-19.)

And, He shall indeed make all things new; HOWEVER, He must reign first until all of His enemies are subdued:

(See 1 Corithians 15:20-28 and how it fits with Revelation 20-22.)

Yeshua` said nothing in this passage about coming with fire. His arrival comes with the sun and the moon being darkened like an eclipse, and the meteorites falling from the sky, and the weather patterns of the skies being shaken! At that time, the sign of the Son of man (Yeshua` the Messiah) shall appear, and all the families (tribes) of the Land ("earth") shall mourn (as prophesied in Zechariah 12:).

Zechariah 12:10-14 (KJV)

10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. 11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. 12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart;
the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart;
the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart;
the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

It is from this passage of Scripture that Yeshua` quoted in Matthew 24:30 and John quoted in Revelation 1:7. In fact, John gave us a verbal link to Revelation 11:15-19. ("hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever"), the same phrase repeated in Revelation 5:13 ("Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever"). And, the words of the loud voices in the sky in Revelation 11:15 are "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

Then, the 24 elders said in Revelation 11:17-18, "We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth (Land)."

The phrase "the nations were angry" further links in Psalm 2:1-12, which I mentioned before!

Again, look at this verse in its context:

1 Corinthians 3:10-15 (KJV)

10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

This is not talking about the end of the age; this is talking about the Judgment Seat of the Messiah DURING the initial 1,000 years of His reign! Notice that BOTH parties, whether builders with durable works or builders with works that shall be burned up, are built upon the FOUNDATION which is Yeshua` the Messiah! (If you will appreciate the wording better,) both parties shall be saved, because both are built upon the SURE FOUNDATION!

Again, by not including other verses in the context, you've been deceptive with this quote! Let's expand it:

Luke 17:22-37 (KJV)

22 And he said unto the disciples,

"The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. 23 And they shall say to you,

"'See here!'; or,

"'see there!':

"go not after them, nor follow them. 24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. 25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

26 "And as it was in the days of Noe (Noah), so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all!

28 "Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all!

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. 31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back! 32 Remember Lot's wife! 33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life (by going back to pack) shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life (by just running) shall preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. 35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left."

37 And they answered and said unto him,

"Where, Lord?"

And he said unto them,

"Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together." [I.e., "wherever the carcass is, that's where the buzzards will gather."]

Thus, there were TWO examples prior to Yeshua` talking about the Son of man being revealed. (1) Noah and the Flood, and (2) Lot and the destruction of Sodom. Although the second was by fire and brimstone (sulfur) falling from the sky, the first was certainly NOT by fire! It was by WATER! Yeshua`s point was not to say they would face fire, but that their lives would SUDDENLY be in jeopardy!

This passage is talking about a more local vengeance! "Them that know not God" were the Gentile (non-Israeli) nations that will attack Israel, and "them that obey not the gospel of our Lord Yeshua` the Messiah," which refers to the "gospel" that He heralded! His "gospel" or "good news" was not about Himself dying, being buried, and resurrecting the third day; HIS "gospel" was the "gospel of the KINGDOM!" That is, He would announce the coming of God's Kingdom in which Yeshua` was the One Anointed to be God's King over Israel (the Messiah). His Gospel, according to Paul's letter to the Romans, was,

Joel 2:15-3:21 (KJV)

15 Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly: 16 Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet. 17 Let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people,

"Where is their God?"

18 Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity his people.

19 Yea, the LORD will answer and say unto his people,

"Behold, I will send you corn, and wine, and oil, and ye shall be satisfied therewith: and I will no more make you a reproach among the heathen: 20 But I will remove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things."

21 Fear not, O land; be glad and rejoice: for the LORD will do great things. 22 Be not afraid, ye beasts of the field: for the pastures of the wilderness do spring, for the tree beareth her fruit, the fig tree and the vine do yield their strength. 23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month. 24 And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the fats shall overflow with wine and oil.

25 "And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you. 26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed. 27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

28 "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: 29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. 30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

32 "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance," as the LORD hath said, "and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. 1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land. 3 And they have cast lots for my people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink.

4 "Yea, and what have ye to do with me, O Tyre, and Zidon, and all the coasts of Palestine? will ye render me a recompence? (LOL!) and if ye (try to) recompense me, swiftly and speedily will I return your recompence upon your OWN head; 5 Because ye have taken my silver and my gold, and have carried into your temples my goodly pleasant things: 6 The children also of Judah and the children of Jerusalem have ye sold unto the Grecians, that ye might remove them far from their border.

7 "Behold, I will raise them out of the place whither ye have sold them, and will return your recompence upon your OWN head: 8 And I will sell YOUR sons and YOUR daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off:" for the LORD hath spoken it.

9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles;

"Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up: 10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, 'I am strong!' 11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen (non-Israeli nations), and gather yourselves together round about":

"thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD."

12 "Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about. 13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great. 14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision (GOD'S decision on them; not their decision!): for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision!"

15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

17 "So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more. 18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth [out] of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim.

19 "Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.

20 "But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation. 21 For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for the LORD dwelleth in Zion."

This is why you need to read the WHOLE prophecy before passing judgment on what you should believe. It's not just "<POOF!> The End." There's MUCH of the prophecies yet to fulfill!

Well, first, let's understand what "fullers' soap" is. A "fuller" is a launderer. Someone who professionally cleans clothes for others, like our dry cleaners shops. Fullers' soap is LYE SOAP! Its chemical name is "sodium hydroxide," and it's symbol is "NaOH." It's also called "caustic lye." It's a highly corrosive base that's easily dissolved in water. In high concentrations, it can "wash" the skin right off your hands!

Now, let's open up the context:

Malachi 3:1-6 (KJV)

1 "Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord (the Messiah), whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come," saith the LORD of hosts.

2 "But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: 3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness. 4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.

5 "And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me," saith the LORD of hosts.

I'm reminded of an old saying: "You can have it fast, cheap, or good. Pick any two."

This means if you want something fast and good, it will cost you, because it won't be cheap.
If you're okay with it being fast and cheap, it will be an inferior product.
If you want something to be good and cheap, it will take time. It won't be done quickly.

Good judgment is THOROUGH! Therefore, Good judgment takes TIME!
Quick judgment is SPEEDY but CAREFUL!
Cheap judgment is neither.

The point is that Yeshua`, a wiser man than Solomon, will still be careful and take whatever time is necessary to be thorough in His judgments. Being a judge is one of the offices of a King of Israel, just as Solomon was. When Yeshua` sits upon His Throne, He will be judging matters of State as well as difficult cases that could not be decided by lesser judges, who will escalate a matter they can't handle.

That's all for tonight.

Messianic prophecies for Israel brother.....prophesying of the glorious gospel and Messiah who was to come and did come in the first century, as well as the wrath and judgment upon Jerusalem/Israel in 70 AD for apostasy and rejecting her Messiah. Already fulfilled to Israel, but also I believe we should consider that some of it is also alluding at the same time to the judgment of the nations and apostate mostly Gentile church at the second coming of Christ.

If we apply a " to the Jew first then to the Gentile" principle. And "One thing He has spoken, two things have I heard..." principle as well. Israel being the ensample to the church....a prophetic type/shadow/pattern of how things will go for the church. Consider whether, just as Israel was forewarned and foretold of the first coming, to be ready for Him, the mostly Gentile church and indeed the world of Gentiles is being forewarned and foretold by some of these same prophecies of the second coming of Christ, to be found faithful and ready for Him. Speaking of two gatherings to Christ as it were, the first century gathering of the elect Jews, then the gathering of mostly Gentiles to forever be with the Lord. And alluding to two judgments in one breath so to speak, first the judgment of Israel at His first coming, then the judgment of the mostly Gentile world at His second coming.

Rom 2:5-11

But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

For there is no respect of persons with God.

Retrobyter · January 31, 2022

5 hours ago, Heleadethme said:

Messianic prophecies for Israel brother.....prophesying of the glorious gospel and Messiah who was to come and did come in the first century, as well as the wrath and judgment upon Jerusalem/Israel in 70 AD for apostasy and rejecting her Messiah. Already fulfilled to Israel, but also I believe we should consider that some of it is also alluding at the same time to the judgment of the nations and apostate mostly Gentile church at the second coming of Christ.

Shalom, Heleadethme.

Are you aware of the disjunct you and other Christians have that you have displayed in the above paragraph?

You start with... "Messianic prophecies [are] for Israel, brother," and conclude with the "apostate mostly Gentile church at the second coming of Christ." You do know that the Israeli "Messiah" = the mostly-Gentile church's "Christ," right? He is not only one and the same Person, but the terms are EXACTLY the same, except for the language behind the word!

Also, follow Paul's logic in Ephesians 2:

Ephesians 2:1-22 (KJV)

1 And you (Gentile Ephesians) hath he (God) quickened (brought to life), who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we ALL had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us (has brought us back to life) together with Christ (with the Messiah), (by grace ye are saved [rescued];) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus (in the Messiah Yeshua`): 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus (through the Messiah Yeshua`). 8 For by grace are ye saved (rescued) through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus (in the Messiah Yeshua`) unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by that which is called "the Circumcision" in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ (outside of the Messiah), being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus (in the Messiah Yeshua`) ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh (NEAR) by the blood of Christ (the blood of the Messiah). 14 For HE IS OUR PEACE, WHO HATH MADE BOTH ONE, AND HATH BROKEN DOWN THE MIDDLE WALL OF PARTITION BETWEEN US; 15 HAVING ABOLISHED IN HIS FLESH THE ENMITY, EVEN THE LAW OF COMMANDMENTS CONTAINED IN ORDINANCES; FOR TO MAKE IN HIMSELF OF TWAIN (TWO) ONE NEW MAN, SO MAKING PEACE; 16 And THAT HE MIGHT RECONCILE BOTH UNTO GOD IN ONE BODY BY THE CROSS, HAVING SLAIN THE ENMITY THEREBY: 17 AND CAME AND PREACHED PEACE TO YOU WHICH WERE AFAR OFF (GENTILES), AND TO THEM THAT WERE NIGH (CHILDREN OF ISRAEL). 18 FOR THROUGH HIM WE BOTH HAVE ACCESS BY ONE SPIRIT UNTO THE FATHER.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but FELLOWCITIZENS WITH THE SAINTS, and OF THE HOUSEHOLD OF GOD; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ (Yeshua` the Messiah) himself being the chief corner stone (capstone); 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an (ONE) holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an (ONE) habitation of God through the Spirit.

Within the Messiah, we, Gentile believers and believers from the children of Israel, are melded together into ONE body with ONE destination! There's no ...

"Christians in Heaven,
Jews on the Earth"

... nonsense! We are given the SAME FATE! We are BOTH citizens of HIS PHYSICAL KINGDOM, over which the Messiah Yeshua` will reign as King!

Retrobyter · January 31, 2022

On 1/29/2022 at 4:04 AM, truth7t7 said:

A long response, and not one mention of my claim of Revelation 20:1-6

One thing I know, a literal Kingdom on this earth, with mortal humans present isn't seen in Revelation 20:1-6

Shalom, truth7t7.

It IS, IF one is willing to read it that way!

Look at it again!

Revelation 20:1-6 (KJV)

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven (down from the sky), having the key of the bottomless pit (the literal hole in the ground which was never tested for its depth) and a great (LITERAL) chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the (LITERAL) dragon, that old serpent (that ORIGINAL SNAKE), which is the Devil (the Slanderer), and Satan (the Enemy), and (LITERALLY) bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him (THREW HIM DOWN) into the bottomless pit (the literal hole in the ground which was never tested for its depth), and shut him up (closed its opening), and set a (LITERAL) seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

[This is the CORE of what is called the "Millennium." The "Millennium" is NOT about the Kingship of the Messiah; it's primary reason for its existence is to BIND THE DRAGON! Meanwhile,...]

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls [air-breathing-bodies] of them that were (who had been LITERALLY) beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived (were LITERALLY RESURRECTED) and (LITERALLY, PHYSICALLY) reigned with Christ (with the Messiah) a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. [Their LITERAL Resurrection was tabled until AFTER the dragon was (LITERALLY) set free.]

This (written in verse 4) is (LITERALLY) the first resurrection.

6 Blessed (Happy) and holy (special) is he that hath (the one who has a LITERAL) part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be (LITERAL) priests of (go-betweens for the people and) God and [of] Christ (His Messiah), and shall (LITERALLY) reign with him a thousand years.

This is not some "pie in the sky, by-and-by" "spiritual" nonsense! This is REAL! THIS IS A LITERAL, PHYSICAL, FUTURE REALITY!

And, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem!

Oh, and by the way, the Fire IS there in Revelation 20, but it doesn't occur until verse 9:

Revelation 20:7-10 (KJV)

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven (out of the sky), and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Our God YHWH IS a consuming fire! However, this Fire comes AFTER the Millennium in which the Messiah and His followers already had been reigning!

Edited January 31, 2022 by Retrobyter
to add a point

truth7t7 · January 31, 2022

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, truth7t7.

It IS, IF one is willing to read it that way!

Look at it again!

Revelation 20:1-6 (KJV)

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven (down from the sky), having the key of the bottomless pit (the literal hole in the ground which was never tested for its depth) and a great (LITERAL) chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the (LITERAL) dragon, that old serpent (that ORIGINAL SNAKE), which is the Devil (the Slanderer), and Satan (the Enemy), and (LITERALLY) bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him (THREW HIM DOWN) into the bottomless pit (the literal hole in the ground which was never tested for its depth), and shut him up (closed its opening), and set a (LITERAL) seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

[This is the CORE of what is called the "Millennium." The "Millennium" is NOT about the Kingship of the Messiah; it's primary reason for its existence is to BIND THE DRAGON! Meanwhile,...]

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls [air-breathing-bodies] of them that were (who had been LITERALLY) beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived (were LITERALLY RESURRECTED) and (LITERALLY, PHYSICALLY) reigned with Christ (with the Messiah) a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. [Their LITERAL Resurrection was tabled until AFTER the dragon was (LITERALLY) set free.]

This (written in verse 4) is (LITERALLY) the first resurrection.

6 Blessed (Happy) and holy (special) is he that hath (the one who has a LITERAL) part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be (LITERAL) priests of (go-betweens for the people and) God and [of] Christ (His Messiah), and shall (LITERALLY) reign with him a thousand years.

This is not some "pie in the sky, by-and-by" "spiritual" nonsense! This is REAL! THIS IS A LITERAL, PHYSICAL, FUTURE REALITY!

And, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem!

Oh, and by the way, the Fire IS there in Revelation 20, but it doesn't occur until verse 9:

Revelation 20:7-10 (KJV)

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven (out of the sky), and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Our God YHWH IS a consuming fire! However, this Fire comes AFTER the Millennium in which the Messiah and His followers already had been reigning!

Mark 16:17KJV

17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

Your theology/eschatology is that of A Jehovah's Witness plain and simple

The watchtower and tract society's teachings seen below, have been around long before you were born

As It Stands:

1.) You dont believe in "Hell" upon the wickeds death

2.) You dont believe in the trinity as the traditional church creeds/confessions teach

3.) You dont believe Jesus Christ is God

4.) You believe 144,000 will be selected servants at Gods throne/temple

It appears that the watchtower and tract society has had great influence in their missionary work

Jesus Christ Is The Lord

Edited January 31, 2022 by truth7t7

Heleadethme · January 31, 2022

8 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Are you aware of the disjunct you and other Christians have that you have displayed in the above paragraph?

You start with... "Messianic prophecies [are] for Israel, brother," and conclude with the "apostate mostly Gentile church at the second coming of Christ." You do know that the Israeli "Messiah" = the mostly-Gentile church's "Christ," right? He is not only one and the same Person, but the terms are EXACTLY the same, except for the language behind the word!

Yes I do know, but perhaps you didn't understand my point.

People are looking to a future glorious utopian kingdom on earth, when that glorious kingdom already arrived and fulfilled those Messianic prophecies. Jesus and His disciples went around preaching the kingdom is at hand....what kingdom?...the kingdom that was hugely prophesied through out the OT scriptures. ie, the Messiah/Christ and His gospel. Jesus said "If I by the finger of God cast out demons then the kingdom has come to you". He also said to those who were expecting an earthly messiah ruling an earthly kingdom, that the kingdom comes not with careful observation, but is within/among you.

And we need to keep in mind that believing Gentiles are grafted into the "Israel of God", not "Israel after the flesh". Rom. 9:6 says "they are not all Israel who are of Israel". Elsewhere we are told a Jew is one who is a Jew inwardly. Isaiah prophesied that though the number of Israelites be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant will be saved.

It is heavenly Zion/Jerusalem that matters to the believer whether Jew or Gentile.....the Jerusalem that is above is our mother.....we were 'born' in Zion, ie, heavenly Zion....here we have no continuing city. Nobody who is born again is a citizen of earthly Israel, but a citizen of heaven passing through this world as a stranger in a strange land. We are told to have our thoughts, our affections, our treasures ABOVE, not to be minding earthly things, and not to be entangled in earthly civil affairs, not even earthly Israel's. Our mandate as the church is to rescue souls OUT of this world that lies in darkness, whatever country after the flesh they happen to live in, including Israel.

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