Lord: Rise Now and Judge the World

[Keras]

It is only the Spiritual souls of those people killed for their faith, who  are under the Altar in heaven. Not living, conscious people. 

The Bible does tell us about people going to live in heaven. There has been a few special cases; like Elijah and just before Jesus Returns, the two witnesses will be resurrected and taken to heaven.

But any prophecy of a general ‘rapture to heaven’ of the Church in the end times, cannot to be found in the Bible.

The prophecy of Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, is about the Return of Jesus, when He will gather those faithful Christians who remain alive then. Proved by Matthew 24:30-31 It will be a transportation from where they are on earth, to where Jesus is: in the clouds, then to Jerusalem. NOT a spiritual change for them as yet.

 

There is no scripture that says there will be a ‘rapture’, but there is plenty saying such a thing is impossible:

John 3:13 No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from there.

John 7:34 Where I go, you cannot come....

John 8:21-23 Your home is on earth......

John 17:15 I do not pray for You to take My followers out of the world, but keep them from the evil one.

Revelation 2:25-26 Hold fast to what you have until I Return. To those who are Victorious, to those who persevere in doing My will until the end, I will give them authority over the nations.    Revelation 5:9-10

 

We will all be here to face the great and terrible Day of the Lord’s wrath:

Luke 21:35....that Day will come upon everyone, the whole world over.

Jeremiah 25:29...I am summoning a Sword against all the inhabitants of the earth.

1 Corinthians 1:7-8 There is no gift you lack, while you wait expectantly for Jesus to Return. He will keep you firm in your faith until the end.......

 

We Christians will be the people God always wanted in the holy Land:

Psalms 37:29 The righteous will possess the Land and will live there forever.

Zechariah 8:7-8 I am about to rescue My people and bring them back to Zion. They will be My people and I will be their God.

Ezekiel 34:11-16 I will search for My sheep from where they are scattered on the Day of cloud and disaster. They will settle in Israel and become prosperous.

Romans 9:24-26 We [Christians] are God’s people, called out of Jew and Gentile.

You were not My people, now I call you My people and the unloved; beloved. In the same place, [in the holy Land] where Israel was told; you are no longer My people, you will be called; the Sons of the Living God.

 

I know how the teaching of a ‘rapture’ has permeated the Church, For many, it is the only end times scenario they have heard, so for those Christians, it is very difficult to consider another outcome.

But serious thought must be given to the scriptures presented above and know that many pastors and Bible scholars dispute the validity of a ‘rapture. 

Why want to go to heaven?  We have an incredible destiny awaiting us here, where we belong.           

[transmogrified]

11 hours ago, Keras said:

It is only the Spiritual souls of those people killed for their faith, who  are under the Altar in heaven. Not living, conscious people. 

So are you saying only the spiritual souls of people who were killed for their faith during the tribulation go to heaven, but the spiritual souls of believers who lived from the time of Adam until the Great Tribulation do not go to heaven?

 

11 hours ago, Keras said:

The Bible does tell us about people going to live in heaven. There has been a few special cases; like Elijah

It can be shown that Elijah wrote a letter to Jehoram approximately 8 years after his ascension to heaven...showing he only went up into the heaven where the birds fly and not up into the heaven which is above all heavens...this is fulfilling what Jesus said that no man has ascended up to heaven...Elijah went up into heaven in a whirlwind and was let back down on the earth and died a natural death as all the other prophets as stated in Hebrews 11...it says 'these all died in faith not having received the promise...' And what more shall I say? For the time would fail to tell of Gideon...Samson...Samuel...and of the prophets..." Elijah was a prophet so he would have been included in the category of all the prophets mentioned who died a natural death.

 

20 hours ago, Keras said:

The prophecy of Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, is about the Return of Jesus, when He will gather those faithful Christians who remain alive then.

   Yes, when he returns he will gather those who are alive and remain. 

20 hours ago, Keras said:

Proved by Matthew 24:30-31

 Matthew 24: 31 specifically says 'the angels will gather together his elect...' in other words the angels are not gathering other angels, but rather the elect being described here are the redeemed saints, or in other words, the wheat, the sheep, his children...ect.

But from where is he gathering them from? It specifically states where he is gathering them from...

1) from the four winds...which would be the earth, and

2) from the one end of heaven to the other...which would be heaven...

So he is gathering his saints from both the heaven and the earth, but this is when he is returning from heaven to the earth, so he is bringing these saints that were in heaven back with him to the earth.

Is he only bringing back those killed during the tribulation and the two witnesses?

20 hours ago, Keras said:

It will be a transportation from where they are on earth, to where Jesus is: in the clouds, then to Jerusalem.

 Matthew 24:31 states there will not only be a gathering from the earth, but also from heaven. Who are those who are gathered from heaven?

20 hours ago, Keras said:

There is no scripture that says there will be a ‘rapture’, but there is plenty saying such a thing is impossible:

John 3:13 No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from there.

As was stated, John 3:13 does not say  'no one goes to heaven..' 

20 hours ago, Keras said:

John 7:34 Where I go, you cannot come....

Yes, this scripture is of course true, but it is not the complete picture...Jesus said in John 13: 33 "Ye shall seek me; and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you..." But he then continues in verse 36 

"Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, whither I go thou canst not follow me NOW, but thou shalt follow me HEREAFTER."

This puts it into perspective that they would not go to where Jesus was going right then, but that they would go to where Jesus was going hereafter.

This is where it is understood that the dead in Christ 'Rise first...' in other words, they are resurrected and changed, and then 'rise' up to heaven. It is at this point that they follow Jesus to heaven.

But this must be understood that they do not stay there very long, for the resurrection of the dead happens on the Last Day, the very day that Jesus returns...so its not as if they 'make their home in heaven..' we will rule on the earth...but the 'rendezvous' or the gathering of both the living and the dead takes place in the clouds as you have said, but the dead in Christ are first raised to heaven, just like the two witnesses, and on the very day they ascend to heaven, Jesus descends and he brings 'those that sleep in Jesus' (the dead in Christ, who were just resurrected, and had ascended to heaven like the two witnesses) back with him to the earth at his return...

21 hours ago, Keras said:

John 7:34 Where I go, you cannot come....

This was spoken to the Jews who did not believe on him, as it states..."I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins; whither I go, ye cannot come..."

Of course the unbelievers are not going to ascend to heaven...only the dead in Christ will ascend up to heaven, the wicked dead will be judged on this earth and be cast into everlasting fire at the return of Christ.

21 hours ago, Keras said:

John 17:15 I do not pray for You to take My followers out of the world, but keep them from the evil one.

We are not taken out of the world to go to live in heaven...the dead in Christ ascend up to heaven and return that very same day..the living are caught up to meet them in the air and all the saints and angels descend on down to the earth to Armageddon...where he then takes down the kingdoms of this world and sets up his kingdom on the earth and we reign here for 1000 years. 

 

21 hours ago, Keras said:

Revelation 2:25-26 Hold fast to what you have until I Return. To those who are Victorious, to those who persevere in doing My will until the end, I will give them authority over the nations.    Revelation 5:9-10

Yes

 

21 hours ago, Keras said:

We will all be here to face the great and terrible Day of the Lord’s wrath:

Yes, of course...I am not advocating a pre tribulation rapture...those who alive at that time will go through the great tribulation...the wrath of God, however does not come upon his own children, but rather upon the unbelievers...God is not going to pour out his wrath on his people who are following him...as even the Pre tribulation advocates will point out...'we are not appointed unto wrath...' 

21 hours ago, Keras said:

We Christians will be the people God always wanted in the holy Land:

Psalms 37:29 The righteous will possess the Land and will live there forever

Yes, of course...the saints will rule over the nations and inherit the earth.

21 hours ago, Keras said:

I know how the teaching of a ‘rapture’ has permeated the Church, For many, it is the only end times scenario they have heard, so for those Christians, it is very difficult to consider another outcome.

The pre-tribulation rapture has by and large been that which has been presented...but even then, they do not believe everyone will live in heaven forever...they say there will be a resurrection to heaven for the dead in Christ and also say those who are alive and remain will be in heaven for something like seven years and then come back to rule on the earth...

What I am saying is that the dead in Christ ascend to heaven on the last day and then return that very same day with Christ to rule the earth...By the phrase 'last day' I am not meaning it is the last day that ever will be, but rather it is the last day of this age, and then we enter into the 1000 year reign.

In order for this to work out scripturally, the resurrection of all the believers happens on the Last Day according to John 6 and other places. But it is also said to occur when the Last and 7th Trumpet sounds, which is the same time Christ sets up his kingdom on this earth...So at the resurrection on the Last day the dead in Christ ascend up to heaven along with the two witnesses, but then are gathered that very day with those who are alive and remain and then we return to rule over the nations for 1000 years...

21 hours ago, Keras said:

But serious thought must be given to the scriptures presented above and know that many pastors and Bible scholars dispute the validity of a ‘rapture. 

As has been said, the 'rapture,' or the 'catching away,' or the 'translation' of the saints is in and of itself not so much disputed, but rather the details of where they are 'translated to' is what you are getting at. 

What I am saying is that our spirits return to God at the time of death, but we are considered to be sleeping in Jesus. At the resurrection the saints awake, in the same way as what happens to the two witnesses....it says 'the spirit of life from God enters into them and they stand upon their feet.' So this is, in a nutshell what happens at the resurrection...even though the bodies of the two witnesses had laid in the street for 3.5 days and had already began to decompose, when the spirit of life entered into them they stood upon their feet...their bodies were changed into immortal bodies at that very moment and then they heard a voice from heaven saying 'come up hither...'

This is the picture of the dead in Christ being resurrected and their bodies ascending up to heaven...but the only difference is that this event does not just happen to the two witnesses...this event takes place at the 7th Trumpet when all the dead in Christ will be resurrected, so they are not treated differently...we are all changed in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the Last Trump...it says we ALL are changed at the Last Trump, not just the two witnesses...

21 hours ago, Keras said:

Why want to go to heaven?  We have an incredible destiny awaiting us here, where we belong.

It is not necessarily what anybody wants, whether they want to go or not is not the issue...its like when the Spirit of life from God enters into the two witnesses and they stand on their feet..it is not because they necessarily wanted anything...it is what God wanted, and they really had no choice anyway because they were dead.

 

Blessings to you- Gary 

[Keras]

6 hours ago, transmogrified said:

So are you saying only the spiritual souls of people who were killed for their faith during the tribulation go to heaven, but the spiritual souls of believers who lived from the time of Adam until the Great Tribulation do not go to heaven?

You have done a great reply. Thanks. 

Yes, Adam, Noah, Abraham and David and all the faithful dead people, all 'sleep' in their graves. They await the GWT Judgment, after the Millennium; when they will be raised to immortality. Revelation 20:5 says it.    Only the GT martyrs are raised when Jesus returns and then only to a mortal body. If they die again, their second death has no power over them, as their names are Written in the Book of Life. 

6 hours ago, transmogrified said:

It is not necessarily what anybody wants, whether they want to go or not is not the issue...its like when the Spirit of life from God enters into the two witnesses and they stand on their feet..it is not because they necessarily wanted anything...it is what God wanted, and they really had no choice anyway because they were dead.

What God wants is a people on earth to be His witnesses, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27 and His Light to the nations. Isaiah 49:3-8, Matthew 5:14-16

I agree that you are probably right, in that the 2 Witnesses will go up into the clouds, where all the faithful peoples will be and meet Jesus, then go to be with Him for the Millennium. Those Witnesses were dead, just as all the GT martyrs will have been killed.  Your belief they become immortal then, is not scriptural.

6 hours ago, transmogrified said:

.we are all changed in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the Last Trump...it says we ALL are changed at the Last Trump, not just the two witnesses...

This prophecy in 1 Corinthians 15:50-56, refers to the GWT Judgement. AFTER the Millennium. Proved by how it is then: Death is no more. Rev 21:4

6 hours ago, transmogrified said:

As has been said, the 'rapture,' or the 'catching away,' or the 'translation' of the saints is in and of itself not so much disputed, but rather the details of where they are 'translated to' is what you are getting at. 

We will be transported to where Jesus will be; that is: in Jerusalem for the Millennium. Revelation 5:9-10

[truth7t7]

6 hours ago, Keras said:

Yes, Adam, Noah, Abraham and David and all the faithful dead people, all 'sleep' in their graves. They await the GWT Judgment, after the Millennium; when they will be raised to immortality. Revelation 20:5 says it.    Only the GT martyrs are raised when Jesus returns and then only to a mortal body. If they die again, their second death has no power over them, as their names are Written in the Book of Life. 

What God wants is a people on earth to be His witnesses, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27 and His Light to the nations. Isaiah 49:3-8, Matthew 5:14-16

I agree that you are probably right, in that the 2 Witnesses will go up into the clouds, where all the faithful peoples will be and meet Jesus, then go to be with Him for the Millennium. Those Witnesses were dead, just as all the GT martyrs will have been killed.  Your belief they become immortal then, is not scriptural.

This prophecy in 1 Corinthians 15:50-56, refers to the GWT Judgement. AFTER the Millennium. Proved by how it is then: Death is no more. Rev 21:4

We will be transported to where Jesus will be; that is: in Jerusalem for the Millennium. Revelation 5:9-10

My bible teaches Abraham and the righteous dead are currently in comfort, while the wicked dead are tormented in "Hell" fire

You promote the false doctrine of "Soul Sleep" Ellen G. White and 7th Day Adventistism

Luke 16:22-25KJV

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Edited February 5, 2022 by truth7t7

[truth7t7]

6 hours ago, Keras said:

We will be transported to where Jesus will be; that is: in Jerusalem for the Millennium. Revelation 5:9-10

Revelation 5:9-10 below states absolutley nothing about "the living church on earth" being transported to Jerusalem,"Beam Me Up Scotty" imaginary Sci-Fi

"Real Big Smiles, Real Big"! 

Revelation 5:9-10KJV

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

 

Edited February 5, 2022 by truth7t7

[Keras]

4 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

You promote the false doctrine of "Soul Sleep"

I promote what the Bible says.  Revelation 20:5 says: The rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years was over. 

4 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

Revelation 5:9-10 below states absolutley nothing about "the living church on earth" being transported to Jerusalem,"Beam Me Up Scotty"

But Revelation 5:10 does.  And prophesies like Zechariah 14:16-21, show how Jesus will reign from the Temple in Jerusalem. 

[truth7t7]

24 minutes ago, Keras said:

I promote what the Bible says.  Revelation 20:5 says: The rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years was over. 

But Revelation 5:10 does.  And prophesies like Zechariah 14:16-21, show how Jesus will reign from the Temple in Jerusalem. 

Revelation 5:10 below states absolutely nothing about the living Church on earth, being Divinely transported to Jerusalem from around the world in "beam me up Scotty" fashion

Revelation 5:9-10KJV

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Edited February 5, 2022 by truth7t7

[transmogrified]

17 hours ago, Keras said:

Yes, Adam, Noah, Abraham and David and all the faithful dead people, all 'sleep' in their graves. They await the GWT Judgment, after the Millennium; when they will be raised to immortality. Revelation 20:5 says it. 

When do you think the 7th Trumpet will sound...at the end of this age, or at the end of the millennium? 

[Keras]

17 hours ago, transmogrified said:

When do you think the 7th Trumpet will sound...at the end of this age, or at the end of the millennium? 

During the final 3 1/2 years of this age; before Jesus Returns.  The Seven Trumpets are the first part of the Great Tribulation, culminating in the Seventh Bowl - when Jesus destroys Satan's armies at Armageddon.  Revelation 16:16-18

23 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

Revelation 5:10 below states absolutely nothing about the living Church on earth, being Divinely transported to Jerusalem from around the world

But 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and Matthew 24:31  do say it,  Jesus is Returning to Jerusalem and we will always be with Him. 

Time for you to live up to your name and get the truth of what you say!

[truth7t7]

7 minutes ago, Keras said:

But 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and Matthew 24:31  do say it,  Jesus is Returning to Jerusalem and we will always be with Him. 

Time for you to live up to your name and get the truth of what you say!

Many claim Jesus will literally return and rule "On This Earth" In A Millennium this being false, he warned his followers against this teaching, Jesus wont be found anywhere upon this earth as many claim

The Antichrist will be in Jerusalem, claiming to be Messiah Returned, "Beware"!

"Believe It Not" "Go Not Forth"

Matthew 24:23-27KJV
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Revelation 13:13-14KJV
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.