Does Modern Church Structure Closely Model the NT Church?

[Anne2]

16 minutes ago, Anne2 said:

 

 

Edited March 2, 2022 by Anne2

[Anne2]

oops double post

[Anne2]

11 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Did I answer the questions asked to your satisfaction?

I tried what I what I understood you to say,,,, but couldn't do it. I mean really just look at the boo boo's I made in this thread. I think one thing I was doing wrong is attempting to chop up a post within the persons post. Which really messed up everything. It was a habit, because I do that on other forums and it works fine.

Edited March 2, 2022 by Anne2

[Starise]

I would guess coming from a Jewish background and later becoming a Messianic Jew is far different than my background or maybe a few others. It is clear there are differences.

Many protestant churches have a table up front made just for what they call the "Lords Supper" or the "Lord's Table". The table itself often has-

" Do this in remembrance of Me" written on the front of the table. The deacons and elders assist in distributing the bread and the grape juice, or in some cases it's real wine to the congregation. Different churches do it at different intervals. My church does it once a month. My last church did it once every three months. When the elements are passed around scripture is read concerning Christ's sacrifice and our need to be thankful and remember.

I never seen that last meal of Jesus as a passover meal. It was simply a meal that Jesus used the bread and the wine to signify what was to take place. I see the passover as a thing told only to the Jews to do. In fact, Paul never demanded the Gentiles participate in any of these things to my knowledge.

Until Paul we had a predominantly Jewish church, after Paul and the rest who went to take the message to the Gentiles, an integration occurred.

This caused a stir, because many of the Jews could not grasp that this change had taken place. This is understandable because for a very long time they had done things a different way. It's whole "Old dog new tricks" thing.

[Anne2]

56 minutes ago, Starise said:

I would guess coming from a Jewish background and later becoming a Messianic Jew is far different than my background or maybe a few others. It is clear there are differences.

Many protestant churches have a table up front made just for what they call the "Lords Supper" or the "Lord's Table". The table itself often has-

" Do this in remembrance of Me" written on the front of the table. The deacons and elders assist in distributing the bread and the grape juice, or in some cases it's real wine to the congregation. Different churches do it at different intervals. My church does it once a month. My last church did it once every three months. When the elements are passed around scripture is read concerning Christ's sacrifice and our need to be thankful and remember.

I never seen that last meal of Jesus as a passover meal. It was simply a meal that Jesus used the bread and the wine to signify what was to take place. I see the passover as a thing told only to the Jews to do. In fact, Paul never demanded the Gentiles participate in any of these things to my knowledge.

Until Paul we had a predominantly Jewish church, after Paul and the rest who went to take the message to the Gentiles, an integration occurred.

This caused a stir, because many of the Jews could not grasp that this change had taken place. This is understandable because for a very long time they had done things a different way. It's whole "Old dog new tricks" thing.

Just my opinion. 

Passover is as a feast (unleavened bread) is important aspect to the Lord's supper. It is a "memorial" feast. Memeorial to what? God fulfilling the promise of the Abrahamic covenant 400 years prior to the event. So, in the way I see it, it is not an event which is by, or through or provided by or from the Sinai covenant. It points to the promises made to their father Abraham, as seed of promise in that prior covenant. That is why no uncircumcised man could eat of it. Circumcision was a sign and a seal of the the faith of their fathers. I think Passover as a memorial feast could be understood in similar fashion of this being said, concerning circumcision

 Joh 7:22  Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.

Passover Was not given you because it is from Moses, but from promise made to your fathers.

Ex 1:23  And it came to pass in process of time, that the king of Egypt died: and the children of Israel sighed by reason of the bondage, and they cried, and their cry came up unto God by reason of the bondage.
24  And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.
25  And God looked upon the children of Israel, and God had respect unto them. 

even as God remembered his covenant with Abraham, gave Israel a memorial as well. Even IMO commanded it here.

1 Chron 16: 15  Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations;
16  Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac;
17  And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant,
18  Saying, Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inheritance; {the lot: Heb. the

And here again in David

Ps 105:6  O ye seed of Abraham his servant, ye children of Jacob his chosen.
7  He is the LORD our God: his judgments are in all the earth.
8 ¶  He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.
9  Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac;
10  And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant:
11  Saying, Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inheritance: 

Passover being a memorial of the covenant made to Abraham concerning his seed is obscured or dimmed when we leave it just to the outward circumcision. As we no longer place it from Abraham to all his seed as Paul teaches us.

Rom 9:6  Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7  Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Ro 9:8  That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
 

Two covenants made with Abraham. The women are an allegory

Gen 15 Princes, the land promised for inheritance to Israel according to the flesh

Ge 17:20  And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

Genesis 17 Kings Promised from Sarah

Ge 17:6  And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
Ge 17:16  And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.

Passover is a memorial to his keeping the promises made to all of us in the one seed of the royal covenant. 

[Starise]

11 minutes ago, Anne2 said:

Just my opinion. 

Passover is as a feast (unleavened bread) is important aspect to the Lord's supper. It is a "memorial" feast. Memeorial to what? God fulfilling the promise of the Abrahamic covenant 400 years prior to the event. So, in the way I see it, it is not an event which is by, or through or provided by or from the Sinai covenant. It points to the promises made to their father Abraham, as seed of promise in that prior covenant. That is why no uncircumcised man could eat of it. Circumcision was a sign and a seal of the the faith of their fathers. I think Passover as a memorial feast could be understood in similar fashion of this being said, concerning circumcision

 Joh 7:22  Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.

Passover Was not given you because it is from Moses, but from promise made to your fathers.

Ex 1:23  And it came to pass in process of time, that the king of Egypt died: and the children of Israel sighed by reason of the bondage, and they cried, and their cry came up unto God by reason of the bondage.
24  And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.
25  And God looked upon the children of Israel, and God had respect unto them. 

even as God remembered his covenant with Abraham, gave Israel a memorial as well. Even IMO commanded it here.

1 Chron 16: 15  Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations;
16  Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac;
17  And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant,
18  Saying, Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inheritance; {the lot: Heb. the

And here again in David

Ps 105:6  O ye seed of Abraham his servant, ye children of Jacob his chosen.
7  He is the LORD our God: his judgments are in all the earth.
8 ¶  He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.
9  Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac;
10  And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant:
11  Saying, Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inheritance: 

Passover being a memorial of the covenant made to Abraham concerning his seed is obscured or dimmed when we leave it just to the outward circumcision. As we no longer place it from Abraham to all his seed as Paul teaches us.

Rom 9:6  Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7  Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Ro 9:8  That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
 

Two covenants made with Abraham. The women are an allegory

Gen 15 Princes, the land promised for inheritance to Israel according to the flesh

Ge 17:20  And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

Genesis 17 Kings Promised from Sarah

Ge 17:6  And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
Ge 17:16  And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.

Passover is a memorial to his keeping the promises made to all of us in the one seed of the royal covenant. 

I have some study into covenant theology which is basically a study of the covenants God made with His people. 

While the Lord's table is something many churches regularly practice in the west, I don't see Passover practiced here, or if it is it would be an isolated thing in most protestant churches I am aware of, at least Baptist, Methodists and Presbyterians. 

You make a good point because this probably IS in contrast to the early churches. It is something that may have been dropped for one reason or another over time.

While I can make connections to the bible statements made about the covenant between the OT and the NT . I believe you are using Romans 9 as the bridge to those connections.

The question then for me would be, to what extent are the rest of us grafted into the vine accountable to practice these things?  Since I have no background for this, I am a little uneasy about adopting something that looks as if maybe it was given to the Jews to do. Follow me here? Especially since no one else here is doing it.

[Anne2]

26 minutes ago, Anne2 said:

Just my opinion. 

Passover is as a feast (unleavened bread) is important aspect to the Lord's supper. It is a "memorial" feast. Memeorial to what? God fulfilling the promise of the Abrahamic covenant 400 years prior to the event. So, in the way I see it, it is not an event which is by, or through or provided by or from the Sinai covenant. It points to the promises made to their father Abraham, as seed of promise in that prior covenant. That is why no uncircumcised man could eat of it. Circumcision was a sign and a seal of the the faith of their fathers. I think Passover as a memorial feast could be understood in similar fashion of this being said, concerning circumcision

 Joh 7:22  Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.

Passover Was not given you because it is from Moses, but from promise made to your fathers.

Ex 1:23  And it came to pass in process of time, that the king of Egypt died: and the children of Israel sighed by reason of the bondage, and they cried, and their cry came up unto God by reason of the bondage.
24  And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.
25  And God looked upon the children of Israel, and God had respect unto them. 

even as God remembered his covenant with Abraham, gave Israel a memorial as well. Even IMO commanded it here.

1 Chron 16: 15  Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations;
16  Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac;
17  And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant,
18  Saying, Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inheritance; {the lot: Heb. the

And here again in David

Ps 105:6  O ye seed of Abraham his servant, ye children of Jacob his chosen.
7  He is the LORD our God: his judgments are in all the earth.
8 ¶  He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.
9  Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac;
10  And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant:
11  Saying, Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inheritance: 

Passover being a memorial of the covenant made to Abraham concerning his seed is obscured or dimmed when we leave it just to the outward circumcision. As we no longer place it from Abraham to all his seed as Paul teaches us.

Rom 9:6  Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7  Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Ro 9:8  That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
 

Two covenants made with Abraham. The women are an allegory

Gen 15 Princes, the land promised for inheritance to Israel according to the flesh

Ge 17:20  And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

Genesis 17 Kings Promised from Sarah

Ge 17:6  And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
Ge 17:16  And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.

Passover is a memorial to his keeping the promises made to all of us in the one seed of the royal covenant. Wine is the drink of kings. As is with Melchizedek. Moses commanded none, Jesus did. The true royal drink of our king/priest.

 

[Starise]

@Anne2 Are you on a windows computer?

 If you are, place the cursor in the answer box where you want to paste quotes, copy the material you want to paste by dragging the mouse over it . When you do that it will be highlighted. Now you should see -quote next to the text. Now hit the enter key.

If you don't see Quote the cursor is not placed in the answer box.

[Anne2]

1 minute ago, Starise said:

I have some study into covenant theology which is basically a study of the covenants God made with His people. 

While the Lord's table is something many churches regularly practice in the west, I don't see Passover practiced here, or if it is it would be an isolated thing in most protestant churches I am aware of, at least Baptist, Methodists and Presbyterians. 

You make a good point because this probably IS in contrast to the early churches. It is something that may have been dropped for one reason or another over time.

While I can make connections to the bible statements made about the covenant between the OT and the NT . I believe you are using Romans 9 as the bridge to those connections.

The question then for me would be, to what extent are the rest of us grafted into the vine accountable to practice these things?  Since I have no background for this, I am a little uneasy about adopting something that looks as if maybe it was given to the Jews to do. Follow me here? Especially since no one else here is doing it.

For me personally, the difference between Genesis 15, and Genesis 17 led me to these things. The continuous mention of God to remember his covenant to Israel over and over again in the law. It is the covenant of his mercy. Jew's in Christ kept the outward circumcision. Gentiles were not circumcised. Jews and gentiles eating their memorial feast in common is a display of Gentile in equal participation in the promise made to Abraham.

Moses did not establish a King. Certainly he anticipated it and gave limits concerning that, but he never established the throne of David, as the blessing Of Israel upon Judah.

[Anne2]

7 minutes ago, Starise said:

@Anne2 Are you on a windows computer?

 If you are, place the cursor in the answer box where you want to paste quotes, copy the material you want to paste by dragging the mouse over it . When you do that it will be highlighted. Now you should see -quote next to the text. Now hit the enter key.

If you don't see Quote the cursor is not placed in the answer box.

Thank you. I will try that. I think I thought of that one but was nervous about submitting, cuz it may have not worked as I thought it should. I wish there were a practice area for this LOL.

Edited March 2, 2022 by Anne2