God`s Purpose for the Rapture.

[AdHoc]

5 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

KINGPRIESTS.

We know from scripture that the Lord is the King (High) Priest of glory.

`I (Father) have set my King on my holy hill of Mount Zion.` (Ps. 2: 6)

`The LORD (Father) has sworn and will not relent, “You are a Priest for ever according to the order of Melchizedek.” (Ps. 110: 4)

And this order is explained in the book of Hebrews as a kingpriest.

`For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the most high God.....king of righteousness,...king of peace..` (Heb. 7: 1 & 2)

These two offices - king and priest, are held by the Lord. And these offices are also given to those in other realms of God`s great kingdom, but have their authority from the Lord. In the new heavens and new earth we see the Lord`s righteous rule through these two offices.

1.     Earth - Kings - `the kings of the earth...` (Rev. 21: 24)

Priests - `And you shall be a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.` ( Ex. 19: 6)

 

2.Universal heavens - Kings - the 12 Apostles. (Matt. 19: 28,  Rev. 21: 14)

    Priests - 144,000 from Israel. (Rev. 7: 4 - 8,   14: 1 - 5,   21: 17)

 

3.Third heaven - Kingpriests - The Body of Christ. (Rev. 1: 6,  3: 21,  4: 4)

 

 

Note that only in the third heaven are the two offices combined. Also, that the Lord is the King HIGH priest. And where there is a HIGH priest there are other Priests of that order - kingpriests.

 

Thus the Body of Christ has been prepared for this high and holy position of authority with the Lord - all of Him and nothing of ourselves.

 

 

I agree that God's initial plan was that the firstborn of Israel where to be King-Priests. But the Golden Calf put paid to that. Moses calls for them, but the sons of Levi answer the call. Thus, the Priesthood is regulated by Law and Levi only may serve the Tabernacle/Temple. The Law foresees a king, but it could not be in effect until their was a KINGDOM - and the wilderness was not the goal.

The King of Israel was God. Israel's call for a king was a rejection of God. But when it was given, it is separate from the Priesthood. Saul loses his kingship for sacrificing (1st Sam.13:14).

Only Melchizedek and Christ are both Priest and King until the Church (1st Pet.2:9). But Christ and the Church are exercised now ONLY a priests - bringing God to man and man to God. They must wait for the kingdom to be kings as well. Christ now sits in His Father's throne and must wait for His own. We, the Church, only receive our crowns after resurrection and judgment (1st Pet.5:4; Rev.20:4-6).

I think we almost agree on this. Our main difference is FROM WHERE do we rule? I offer as a starting point that when God made man He said two things. "Rule" and "Fill the EARTH". I judge that He has not changed His mind. In the Millennium, our Lord lives in Jerusalem (Zech.14:16). For rule to be from the heavens, there would have to be a second rapture because we return to earth to kill Gentiles in Revelation 19. I find no evidence of this.

[AdHoc]

15 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Ad Hoc,

1. The city actually has to be in the universal heavens for God`s righteous rulership to be there. The Lord created that authority, principalities and powers, (Col. 1: 16) and while Satan usurped it that position is still God`s and for whom he has prepared. Also for the people of the earth to walk in its light it has to be above them as the earth turns.

2. Yes Israel at that time refused the king and his offer, however when the Lord returns in great power and glory to deliver Israel and judge the rebellious, then Israel will be given the rulership over the nations of the world as promised. (Zech. 14: 16 in the millennium and later in NHNE).

The parables are still concerning God`s promises to Israel. (Rom. 15: 8)

3. I agree that the Godhead are above the highest heaven. However the Father has planned that His Son in His glorified body will be visibly ruling with His Body from the highest realm in God`s great kingdom. 

The Lord Jesus Christ will not be below where Lucifer ruled,

Christ will not rule below the angels,

Christ will not rule below where Satan is ruling now.

The Lord Jesus Christ will visibly rule and reign far above all in this age and the one to come. (Eph. 1: 21) 

OK. Fair enough. I'm off to bed, so I'll take your thoughts with to mull. Nice swapping ideas. G'night.

[Marilyn C]

33 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

I agree that God's initial plan was that the firstborn of Israel where to be King-Priests. But the Golden Calf put paid to that. Moses calls for them, but the sons of Levi answer the call. Thus, the Priesthood is regulated by Law and Levi only may serve the Tabernacle/Temple. The Law foresees a king, but it could not be in effect until their was a KINGDOM - and the wilderness was not the goal.

The King of Israel was God. Israel's call for a king was a rejection of God. But when it was given, it is separate from the Priesthood. Saul loses his kingship for sacrificing (1st Sam.13:14).

Only Melchizedek and Christ are both Priest and King until the Church (1st Pet.2:9). But Christ and the Church are exercised now ONLY a priests - bringing God to man and man to God. They must wait for the kingdom to be kings as well. Christ now sits in His Father's throne and must wait for His own. We, the Church, only receive our crowns after resurrection and judgment (1st Pet.5:4; Rev.20:4-6).

I think we almost agree on this. Our main difference is FROM WHERE do we rule? I offer as a starting point that when God made man He said two things. "Rule" and "Fill the EARTH". I judge that He has not changed His mind. In the Millennium, our Lord lives in Jerusalem (Zech.14:16). For rule to be from the heavens, there would have to be a second rapture because we return to earth to kill Gentiles in Revelation 19. I find no evidence of this.

Hi Ad Hoc,

Yes we agree on so much. And again yes God has NOT reneged on His purpose for man on the earth, it is just that God had greater purposes through Christ, not just to restore man to the earth, but for Christ like man to rule with Christ from the highest realm.

We do not return to earth, there is no scripture to say that. 

BTW can you please address what I wrote previously? 

The Lord Jesus Christ will not be below where Lucifer ruled,

Christ will not rule below the angels,

Christ will not rule below where Satan is ruling now.

The Lord Jesus Christ will visibly rule and reign far above all in this age and the one to come. (Eph. 1: 21) 

[AdHoc]

13 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Ad Hoc,

1. The city actually has to be in the universal heavens for God`s righteous rulership to be there. The Lord created that authority, principalities and powers, (Col. 1: 16) and while Satan usurped it that position is still God`s and for whom he has prepared. Also for the people of the earth to walk in its light it has to be above them as the earth turns.

2. Yes Israel at that time refused the king and his offer, however when the Lord returns in great power and glory to deliver Israel and judge the rebellious, then Israel will be given the rulership over the nations of the world as promised. (Zech. 14: 16 in the millennium and later in NHNE).

The parables are still concerning God`s promises to Israel. (Rom. 15: 8)

3. I agree that the Godhead are above the highest heaven. However the Father has planned that His Son in His glorified body will be visibly ruling with His Body from the highest realm in God`s great kingdom. 

The Lord Jesus Christ will not be below where Lucifer ruled,

Christ will not rule below the angels,

Christ will not rule below where Satan is ruling now.

The Lord Jesus Christ will visibly rule and reign far above all in this age and the one to come. (Eph. 1: 21) 

Point #1. It is true that Christ created all things and that besides the laws of nature, He created the principalities for government. But this does not say whether Christ and men will rule from heaven or on earth. I also agree that Lucifer was previous governor of this earth (Isa.14, Ezek.28) and that while he is a Cherub, he "walks to and fro ON the earth" (Job.1:7, 2.2). Because he did not manage his estate well, he is replaced by MAN. God maintains overall sovereignty in this universe, but has decided that MAN, who is "made lower than the angels" will replace Lucifer. The wisdom and glory of God is shown in making man lower than the angels and because of the heavenly and divine nature INFUSED into man, the man is able to subdue that which is higher than Him.  Never once in the Book of Matthew does our Lord call Himself "Son of God" (although others did). He always answers with "the Son of MAN". Only in the book of John, where He comes as divine life for men does He admit being the Son of God. Psalm 8:3–9 and Heb 2:9 set our Lord's position as a MAN.

3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet: 7 All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field; 8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas. 9 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man

God's declared purpose with MAN is that he was to "fill the earth". To Noah is the same commanded. To Abraham is the Land given as "an everlasting possession". Israel's recovery is to a Land with borders. In Daniel the Kingdom "fills he whole earth". In the gospels will "the meek inherit the earth". But most telling is the direct statement of

 17 At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.

And then, besides the many prophecies which allude to Christ's presence in Jerusalem, His God-given Name is "Emmanuel" - God WITH US.

Point #2. Zechariah 14:16 is proof of point #1 above too. But you have advanced it as proof that Israel will rule. To support it you gave Romans 15:8. Here they are.

16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles

7 Wherefore receive ye one another, as Christ also received us to the glory of God. 8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: 9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. 10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people. 11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people. 12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

You will at once notice that nothing is said of Israel ruling in Zechariah. Christ - yes, but Israel... I think not. And in Romans 15 we learn that our Lord was a "minister of the circumcision" ... to confirm the PROMISES made to the Fathers". The parables do not concern the Promises. The promises were to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob for the Land a a gift, not the Kingdom of heaven. It is true that "kings would come out of Sarah" but it is the seed as the "stars of heaven" that possess the gates of his (Abraham's) enemies (Gen.22:17). It is the seed of a heavenly birth and calling - the Church. This is confirmed at the end of Genesis Chapter 14.

There, Abraham returns from battle, weary and afraid of his provocation of the kings of the earth. God assures Him of His protection. Then, like always, emotions uncover the real problem. Abraham has been promised things but he will soon die. An HEIR is on his heart. So he addresses this before God. And God reassures him ... with what??? the HEIR shall be the seed as "the stars of heaven" (Gen.15:1-6). The "seed as the sand of the sea-shore" is conspicuous by its absence - TWICE. And finally, looking at verse 12 of Romans 15 above, what do we see? A King ... no doubt. But is Israel mentioned in connection with this .... ???

In closing this point, I would like to point out that I gave you both Matthew 21:43 and the case of the Twelve, who are Christians, but who rule Israel. This, you did not comment on. And I'll leave it because we both know what the implications are. Israel have gained a merciful God's mercy and promise of national recovery, but the Kingdom of Heaven CANNOT be given to them. They accused the Holy Spirit, by which Jesus cast out demons, of being Beelzebub - a sin not forgiven in THIS AGE NOR THE NEXT (Matt.12:32). And it was this very thing that you brought up - the Principalities - of which demons belong.

Israel cannot ever join in the rule of the Kingdom of Heaven.

Point #3. For this you gave no scripture. But you did give Zechariah 14:16. Our Lord Jesus will be King in Jerusalem. And according to Romans 15 above, which you also gave, Our Lord Jesus will reign over the Gentiles - from where? I propose Zechariah 14:16.

Now I will move to your concluding statements.

13 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Ad Hoc,

Yes we agree on so much. And again yes God has NOT reneged on His purpose for man on the earth, it is just that God had greater purposes through Christ, not just to restore man to the earth, but for Christ like man to rule with Christ from the highest realm.

We do not return to earth, there is no scripture to say that. 

BTW can you please address what I wrote previously? 

The Lord Jesus Christ will not be below where Lucifer ruled,

Christ will not rule below the angels,

Christ will not rule below where Satan is ruling now.

The Lord Jesus Christ will visibly rule and reign far above all in this age and the one to come. (Eph. 1: 21) 

The Lord Jesus Christ will not be below where Lucifer ruled. I think you have made the criteria geographical elevation and not rank and glory. It is not a matter of where in elevation the rule comes from. It is a matter of the rank of the Victor and His glory. Though Jerusalem is only at about 760 meters (above mean sea level), it is, and will be, the capital of the earth. Why, its Rank is "City of the Great King" and its glory is multiple that of Solomon. Though our Lord descend to Hades (as He did), He had just defeated Satan in His death - a Victor in the "lowest part of the earth". And in the ages to come, what will be the conditions of Christ's rule. It will be on the earth while all the angels of heaven worship him - as they did when he was a helpless baby in a manger.

Christ will not rule below the angels. I agree. But not geographically, for the king chosen by the Lord for Katmandu will be higher than Jesus in Jerusalem. It is RANK that counts! Angels are "ministers" - Jesus is King of the universe. What difference does it make when Caesar visits the Dead Sea for a wellness weekend (the lowest point of the dry earth). He is still king of the known world.

Christ will not rule below where Satan is ruling now.  I understand your point, and commend you for your quest to uphold Christ's honor and glory. But a King Who does not live in His Kingdom is called an "Expatriate". And if he lives there because of resistance within His Kingdom, he is in "Exile". I can only record the following concerning Jesus;

11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. 12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. .... 15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading

Our Lord Jesus goes away. He retains a small entity on earth where He is King - the Church (Rev.1:9). The rest of the world is subject to "the Prince of the power of the air". The Kingdoms of this world are his to distribute at will (Lk.4:5-6). But Satan's place in the heavens is terminated in Revelation 12 by another angel - Michael. He is cast to earth and gives his power to a man - the Beast. Just over three years later this Beast meets Jesus in the valley of Jezreel to decide military and political supremacy. Jezreel is ON EARTH. Jesus, with a relatively small army, caries out the greatest slaughter of history. Blood, five foot deep and 1,600 furlongs of valley-width will be shed, but with not a single casualty on the Lord's side. I don't know if you're ready for it, but if you are counted as Christ's Bride in the first part of Revelation 19, you will also be part of His army in the second half of the Chapter. And if our Lord is soaked in blood, so will you be. And all this ON EARTH. And then you will depart to the city you have been appointed by Jesus at the Bema (Lk.19:17-19), and you will "rule with a rod of iron" - cheerfully. Why? Satan will be both beneath your feet and below the earth in the bottomless pit. And then Christ (and you) will rule ABOVE Satan Geographically and in Rank. *

Our Lord RETURNS to claim His Kingdom. The little stone of Daniel 2 will fill the EARTH. There is no record of Him returning to the sky. He is a glorious King, but He is a "hands-on" King.

* At last we agree on geographical supremacy.

[Marilyn C]

8 hours ago, AdHoc said:

 

The Lord Jesus Christ will not be below where Lucifer ruled. I think you have made the criteria geographical elevation and not rank and glory. It is not a matter of where in elevation the rule comes from. It is a matter of the rank of the Victor and His glory.

Hi Ad Hoc,

I will just address this main point.

`Heaven is my throne and the earth is my footstool.` (Isa. 66: 1)

[AdHoc]

6 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Ad Hoc,

I will just address this main point.

`Heaven is my throne and the earth is my footstool.` (Isa. 66: 1)

Great argument. My counter argument is that it is "The Kingdom of Heaven". "Thy Kingdom COME (As He spoke He was standing on earth), Thy will be done ON EARTH as it is in heaven". I understand your quest though. Let's wait and see.

God bless

[Marilyn C]

33 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Great argument. My counter argument is that it is "The Kingdom of Heaven". "Thy Kingdom COME (As He spoke He was standing on earth), Thy will be done ON EARTH as it is in heaven". I understand your quest though. Let's wait and see.

God bless

The `kingdom` means rule and that is FROM heaven. Remember Jesus told Pilate that His Kingdom/rule was not of (from) this world. Meaning that it is God the Father who has given Him the authority to rule. (Ps. 2: 6) No one on earth has the authority to give to the Lord His rulership. (John 18: 36)

Also remember that the world and all they within it are God`s. (Ps. 24: 1) He made it and them and NEVER gave it away. It is all of God`s great kingdom. He rules over all. It is just the rebellious rulership that He is dealing with. (1 Cor. 15: 25)

[AdHoc]

12 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

The `kingdom` means rule and that is FROM heaven. Remember Jesus told Pilate that His Kingdom/rule was not of (from) this world. Meaning that it is God the Father who has given Him the authority to rule. (Ps. 2: 6) No one on earth has the authority to give to the Lord His rulership. (John 18: 36)

Also remember that the world and all they within it are God`s. (Ps. 24: 1) He made it and them and NEVER gave it away. It is all of God`s great kingdom. He rules over all. It is just the rebellious rulership that He is dealing with. (1 Cor. 15: 25)

The word "world" in the Greek is "Kosmos". It's basic meaning is "the adornment" or "the orderly arrangement of things". It can also mean the universe in that it is an adornment. The word "kosmos" must be explained by it's context, otherwise you end up with absurdities. Like ....

John 3:16-17: For God so loved the world ("Kosmos") , that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world ("Kosmos") to condemn the world("Kosmos"); but that the world ("Kosmos") through him might be saved

versus ...

1st John 2:15-17:  Love not the world ("Kosmos"), neither the things that are in the world ("Kosmos") . If any man love the world ("Kosmos"), the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world ("Kosmos"), the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world ("Kosmos"). 17 And the world ("Kosmos") passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

So when our Lord stood before Pilate, what do you think was meant? After all, In Daniel 2 the Lord vanquishes 4 Gentile world powers and makes them His own, as Revelation 11:15 confirms. The answer is, of course, that "Kosmos" means the political arrangement of things. Roman military might run by corrupt wheeling and dealing regents doing deals with corrupt Pharisees so that each could realize their illegal agendas. It is THAT "arrangement of things" that our Lord was not part of. His "Kosmos" is a Sovereign benign reign of the rod of iron - unbending justice and righteousness.

And the King returns to earth to take up residence in Ezekiel's Temple - the Greater Solomon Whose glory and pomp surpasses anything the earth has yet seen. He is a RESIDENT KING in His day and the Nations will flow to Jerusalem to have audience with Him - so the prophets. He is EMMANUEL - God WITH us.

Finally, I'm sorry to have to tell you that God DID give away the earth.

 Psalm 115:16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.

Edited February 3, 2022 by AdHoc

[Marilyn C]

19 hours ago, AdHoc said:

 

Finally, I'm sorry to have to tell you that God DID give away the earth.

 Psalm 115:16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.

Hi Ad Hoc,

I believe from other scriptures that `given,` means for dominion. (Ps. 24: 1, Gen. 1: 28)

Can man uphold the earth which hangs on nothing (Job 26: 7) and spins through space on a predetermined course? No it is the Lord who upholds the earth and everything else. (Heb. 1: 3)

Now you have seen the wondrous picture of the glorified Lord with the 7 stars in His hands. (Rev. 1: 20) These are the Pleiades, (Job 9: 9,  38: 31, Heb. Kiymah a cluster of stars, the Pleiades, seven stars). Seven stars are visible with the naked eye however there are thousands in the cluster. Now this group pull our solar system on a thousand year cycle across the Milky Way.

This shows that the Lord has not only control over the workings of the universe but has great power to build the Body of Christ across the centuries and across the world. For the 7 stars are symbolic of the `angels` of the 7 churches.

So I firmly believe that God still owns and has control over His earth.

 regards, Marilyn.

 

[AdHoc]

On 2/4/2022 at 6:53 AM, Marilyn C said:

Hi Ad Hoc,

I believe from other scriptures that `given,` means for dominion. (Ps. 24: 1, Gen. 1: 28)

Can man uphold the earth which hangs on nothing (Job 26: 7) and spins through space on a predetermined course? No it is the Lord who upholds the earth and everything else. (Heb. 1: 3)

Now you have seen the wondrous picture of the glorified Lord with the 7 stars in His hands. (Rev. 1: 20) These are the Pleiades, (Job 9: 9,  38: 31, Heb. Kiymah a cluster of stars, the Pleiades, seven stars). Seven stars are visible with the naked eye however there are thousands in the cluster. Now this group pull our solar system on a thousand year cycle across the Milky Way.

This shows that the Lord has not only control over the workings of the universe but has great power to build the Body of Christ across the centuries and across the world. For the 7 stars are symbolic of the `angels` of the 7 churches.

So I firmly believe that God still owns and has control over His earth.

 regards, Marilyn.

 

I think I'll wait for your response to my response on your understanding of "kosmos". On this hangs much more than just denying a plainly worded scripture.

Take care Sister.