Willa Posted February 9, 2022 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 68 Topic Count: 186 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 14,250 Content Per Day: 3.32 Reputation: 16,662 Days Won: 30 Joined: 08/14/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted February 9, 2022 6 hours ago, WordSword said: I like your comments and appreciate the input! Also wanted to comment that the dichotomy (2 natures) Paul demonstrates in Ro 7 is that of one who is reborn (many think he is not reborn in this discourse). Thus Ro 8 is the Christians position and Ro 7 his condition (saved and still learning God's will via the contrast of the old man and new man). I have also heard this, as if Paul couldn't possibly be that human. I think that Paul is lending us what he has learned from his own experience. Remember that He was taught by Jesus in the desert before he appeared on the scene. Paul was very human and had human failings and struggles. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 10, 2022 Share Posted February 10, 2022 16 hours ago, Willa said: I have also heard this, as if Paul couldn't possibly be that human. I think that Paul is lending us what he has learned from his own experience. Remember that He was taught by Jesus in the desert before he appeared on the scene. Paul was very human and had human failings and struggles. I think it's the same experience with all who are reborn. When Paul said he doesn't do the good he wills to do, he didn't mean all the time, just as we might see or think of a good to do but didn't do it. Same for when he said when he did evil, he did not want to do it. Romans 7:17 and 19 clearly demonstrate the new man and the old man: "it is no longer I (in his new nature) who do it, but sin (old nature) that dwells in me." Same for 1Jo 3:9: "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin . . . and he cannot sin." We do not sin with the new our new nature, but with the old nature. The phrase "He that commits sin is of the devil" intends the meaning that sin is being committed "willfully" (Heb 10:26;Num 15:30). Believers can see that their sins are not intentional but remorseful; and the sins continue to lesson in severity and frequency! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 10, 2022 Share Posted February 10, 2022 17 hours ago, Seeker1834 said: Sounds like we are on the same page. I've not found many that agree with me on this. Thanks I see the same situation, and I believe it's part of the prophecy concerning 1Ti 4:1--"departing from the faith." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willa Posted February 11, 2022 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 68 Topic Count: 186 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 14,250 Content Per Day: 3.32 Reputation: 16,662 Days Won: 30 Joined: 08/14/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted February 11, 2022 They say that when we focus on not doing something it just intensifies, because that is what we focus on. In Romans 7 that is what he does. The evil he doesn't want to do is what he does because that is what he focuses on. When we focus on following Jesus and the things of the Spirit then we do that. That is why I keep going back to Romans 8. Rom 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. Rom 8:6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. Our associate pastor was also a clinical psychologist. He said that when people hold unforgiveness and always dwell on that person they eventually become like them. This is why we need to focus on Jesus. We will eventually become more like Him. All through the book of Hebrews we are admonished to look at Jesus. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickyLouse Posted February 11, 2022 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 268 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 82 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/30/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/25/2004 Share Posted February 11, 2022 (edited) On 2/5/2022 at 8:01 AM, WordSword said: blessings came by man’s works of obedience to God, which manifested faith in Him This is wrong because it contradicts the free gift of faith and the idea of justification by faith alone. Hebrews 11:11 says, "By faith even Sarah herself received ability to conceive". If her faith was manifested by her obedience, how did she make herself able to conceive? All of the examples of faith in that chapter say that faith enabled obedience - not the other way around. Edited February 11, 2022 by NickyLouse 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickyLouse Posted February 11, 2022 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 268 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 82 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/30/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/25/2004 Share Posted February 11, 2022 (edited) On 2/9/2022 at 6:02 AM, WordSword said: "the law of commandments contained in ordinances" was "abolished" (Eph 2:15). The context of the verse above is that the Jews had established a physical barrier between where Jews worshiped and where Gentiles worshiped even though both were in Christ. The problem that most Christians have with Torah is a misunderstanding of what Jesus and Paul were referring to when they taught against "law". The oral traditions (and Mishnah) of the Pharisees sought to put barriers around Torah to try to help people from committing sin. However, in their efforts, they added to the word of God and actually hindered the people's ability to draw near to YHVH by way of Torah. They were like blind men leading the blind. Jesus warned against the yeast of the Pharisees. Jesus said, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent, and have revealed them to infants. Yes, Father, for this way was well pleasing in Your sight. All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son determines to reveal Him. “Come to Me, all who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is comfortable, and My burden is light.” Before you tell me that grace and "Law" are incompatible, please understand that it is by grace through faith (alone) we are saved (justified). However, it is through keeping (guarding) His commandments that we show our love for Him (John 14:15). There is no Hebraic biblical word for "obey". Shema means to listen intently with understanding and give your considered response. Shemar (H8104) is to guard. There are very few English translations that get this concept correct. They want to manipulate us into obedience. Our sanctification - AFTER we are justified - does indeed depend on our cooperation with the Ruach Hokadesh. This is where the understanding of Torah comes into play, but there are some who are justified who have nothing to show for it (1 Corinthians 3:14-15) Edited February 11, 2022 by NickyLouse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 11, 2022 Share Posted February 11, 2022 17 hours ago, Willa said: They say that when we focus on not doing something it just intensifies, because that is what we focus on. In Romans 7 that is what he does. The evil he doesn't want to do is what he does because that is what he focuses on. When we focus on following Jesus and the things of the Spirit then we do that. That is why I keep going back to Romans 8. I see what you mean, and I think we just have a different understanding of that Chapter. Appreciate your input! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willa Posted February 11, 2022 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 68 Topic Count: 186 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 14,250 Content Per Day: 3.32 Reputation: 16,662 Days Won: 30 Joined: 08/14/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted February 11, 2022 5 hours ago, NickyLouse said: This is wrong because it contradicts the free gift of faith and the idea of justification by faith alone. Hebrews 11:11 says, "By faith even Sarah herself received ability to conceive". If her faith was manifested by her obedience, how did she make herself able to conceive? All of the examples of faith in that chapter say that faith enabled obedience - not the other way around. It is not faith or works but faith that works. Faith is not static but dynamic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 11, 2022 Share Posted February 11, 2022 5 hours ago, NickyLouse said: This is wrong because it contradicts the free gift of faith and the idea of justification by faith alone. Hebrews 11:11 says, "By faith even Sarah herself received ability to conceive". If her faith was manifested by her obedience, how did she make herself able to conceive? All of the examples of faith in that chapter say that faith enabled obedience - not the other way around. Hi, and thanks for your replies! I agree that it's faith first, then obedience, because there is no true obedience without faith. It's also my understanding that the faith used in the OT saints is not the same strain as the NT saints. The prior was natural faith and forgiveness came from it; the latter is from the Spirit (Gal 5:22), which now is required "through" which we are "saved"(Eph 2:8). 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 11, 2022 Share Posted February 11, 2022 5 hours ago, NickyLouse said: The context of the verse above is that the Jews had established a physical barrier between where Jews worshiped and where Gentiles worshiped even though both were in Christ. The problem that most Christians have with Torah is a misunderstanding of what Jesus and Paul were referring to when they taught against "law". It's my belief that Judaism is ended for now, since Christ's resurrection, but He still taught part of the time the Law, while He was acclimating believers in Him from the Law (which was "taken away" - Heb 10:9) to the Gospel. Law and Gospel are not the same administrations but have the same goal, but Law will not return for Israel (God's people) until the Millennium (Jer 31:31-33; Eze 36:27). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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