The Death of a Man

[AdHoc]

The Death of Man

In another hotly disputed thread the contention of the author is that born again Christians never die, even when they die. Her contention is that at death the believer in Christ receives a new body, made in heaven and spiritual, and is caught up to be with God in heaven. I would like to present what I understand the Bible to reveal concerning the death of men, including the death of our Lord Jesus as a prime example.

Man’s construction God made man a Vessel. A Vessel is to contain something (2nd Cor.4:7). Man was designed and made to be the Temple of God. Even a cursory study will reveal that throughout both Old and New Testaments, the pattern of Genesis 2:7 is never changed:

7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
 
The BODY is “formed” from existing materials - the elements of the earth. The breath of God is “spirit” because God is a Spirit. And this combination “became” a living SOUL. From that point on the Bible refers to men as “SOULS”. The SOUL is the man. A man is “whole” when these three parts are together. So 1st Thessalonians 5:23 says;
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
 
Man’s death
Man has two lives, or two “vitalities”. One is his physical life in his blood. The other is his vitality or animation by his spirit. James 2:26 says that if the spirit departs a man is dead. That is if the spirit is “given away” the man dies. Without exception in the bible, a man dies when he “gives up the ghost”. We even have the universal term - “he expired”. The conclusion, without exception, is that the spirit of man is separated from his body at death. According to Ecclesiastes 3:21 and 12:7, the spirit, being the breath of God, returns to God at death.

Most of us reading this posting will have had contact with a dead person, mostly by attending a funeral. Whether a cremation or a burial, we observe the inanimate body return to the dust and elements. So also the Bible - Genesis 3:19

But if the man is a SOUL, what happens to the man, or his SOUL? Without exception in the Bible, the soul of man goes to a place under the earth called “Sheol” in the Hebrew, and “Hades” in the Greek. There the SOULS of men must wait until resurrection.

Man’s condition in death
Besides being rent apart at death, 2nd Corinthians 5 tells us that in death we are naked. The “tent” or “Tabernacle” that is the human body is our clothing and in death we lose it and are naked.

This unnatural state of a human causes us to “groan” in death. This is seen in Lazarus in Luke 16. We would think that death would have ended his sufferings, but in Hades he needed to be “comforted”. The Greek word used here means “to run to one’s side”. The rich man had a ”flame” to torment him. Lazarus had no flame, but he nevertheless needed “comfort”.

Besides being naked in death, we know from the whole Bible that the dead are reckoned as “unclean”. Touching a dead man under the Law of Moses made one unclean for 7 days - the full number.

Dead men are in bondage (Heb.2:15). Death is the enemy of God, thus, dead men are subject to God’s enemy.

There is not a single case documented by the Bible where a dead man went to heaven. All the men who ever went to heaven were ALIVE in their bodies. A man cannot appear in heaven, God’s Throne, naked, unclean, or a subject of God’s enemy. A comprehensive picture of this is Aaron. To appear before God, he had to have a special sacrifice, special washings, special clothing and no sickness. Dead men are unfit for God’s purposes.

Resurrection
The word “resurrection” means “to rise”, or, “to cause to stand”. At resurrection the three parts of the man come together again. In Luke 8 the maiden’s spirit “CAME” to her (Lk.8:55), and in 1st Kings 17:22 the lad’s soul returned to him.

1st Corinthians 15 is a whole Chapter dedicated to the circumstances of resurrection. In this chapter we find that;

1. Resurrection is guaranteed for EVERY man (v.22)
2. That the resurrector is Jesus (v.45)
3. That the original body of man is a seed which produces a new body after it’s kind
4. That just like a seed of corn produces an ear of corn, the original body remains, but it goes through a “change”
5. That the LIVING believers will not see death but that their BODIES undergo this same change
6. That our resurrection is “when Jesus comes” (v.23)

In 2nd Corinthians Chapter 5 we find out that the new body, though it comes out of the old body, is not constructed in a womb, but in heaven and by the Holy Spirit (vs.1-5). In Philippians 3:21 we further learn that our bodies are fashioned LIKE that of Christ’s

Christ’s death and resurrection  
The best documented death in the bible is that of Jesus. According to Hebrews 2:14-18, our Lord Jesus was made, lived, was tested, died, and was resurrected LIKE US. The following are the facts of His death.

1. He shed His blood. This brought on death of the Body. The life is in the blood
2. He gave up His human spirit at death. It was given to God in heaven
3. His dead body was laid in a tomb on the surface of the earth
4. He predicted in Matthew 12:40 that He would go to the heart of the earth
5. Ephesians 4:9 says that He “descended FIRST” - thus fulfilling that prediction
6. Acts 2:27-34 show that this place was Hades and that David is still there

Thus, like ALL men, our Lord Jesus, at human death, was torn apart - His body , spirit and soul went to different destinations. Because His SOUL was His main part, or rather, Jesus the Man was a SOUL, He told the thief that He - Jesus, would be together with the thief that same day. Thus, the Lord, the thief and David were all in Hades. If our Lord Jesus "descended first", then spent three days in "the heart of the earth", and then rose to tell Mary that He had "not yet ascended", then it is safe to say that Paradise, formally "Abraham's Bosom", is in Hades.

After three days the Lord Jesus was resurrected. He “ROSE” giving the direction as “UP”. But he went no further than the surface of the earth, for He told Mary that He had NOT YET ASCENDED to His Father. The angels at the Tomb said; “He is RISEN”. Thus, resurrection is the process of the SOUL going from “the lowest parts of the earth” to the surface where it meets the renewed body. There is no case of a resurrection outside of these parameters. To defy gravity and be removed from the surface of the earth, one is “RAPTURED” - not “resurrected”

Resurrection pertain exclusively to the BODY and is the meeting of a Body which “STANDS” on the surface of the earth with its SOUL which RISES from Hades, and the meeting of the SPIRIT which “returns” (Lk.8:55). Death tears a man apart - resurrection joins the man again and makes him "whole" (1st Thess.5:23).

By special dispensation of the Father, (i) Jesus could leave Hades after three days, and (ii) His Body did not start to rot. All other men, except those alive at Christ’s coming, will go through the same process as our Lord, except that they REMAIN in Hades till resurrection while their bodies rot to the elements.

A full study of this matter takes a small book. Many factors have not been addressed. They will hopefully be shown in subsequent discussion. I propose this as a starting point for discussion.

 

[Christine]

Quote

AdHoc said:-

In another hotly disputed thread the contention of the author is that born again Christians never die, even when they die. Her contention is that at death the believer in Christ receives a new body, made in heaven and spiritual, and is caught up to be with God in heaven. I would like to present what I understand the Bible to reveal concerning the death of men, including the death of our Lord Jesus as a prime example.

Hello AdHoc,

Thank you for your carefully considered response to this author of the above quote.

Man does not have an immortal soul, for we are told that, 'the soul that sinneth it shall die', and as 'all have sinned and come short of the glory of God,' then all die (Romans 6:23). 

Yes, when a person dies, whether saved or unsaved, the body goes back to the earth from whence it came, and the spirit (or breath of life) goes back to God Who gave it.  It remains in the place of the dead, or the grave, until it is resurrected by the power of God.

Resurrection life is a gift from God received by the believer on the Lord Jesus Christ, and will be the promised future possession of all who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (2 Timothy 1:1). 

 

 

AdHoc said:-

This unnatural state of a human causes us to “groan” in death. This is seen in Lazarus in Luke 16. We would think that death would have ended his sufferings, but in Hades he needed to be “comforted”. The Greek word used here means “to run to one’s side”. The rich man had a ”flame” to torment him. Lazarus had no flame, but he nevertheless needed “comfort”.

Besides being naked in death, we know from the whole Bible that the dead are reckoned as “unclean”. Touching a dead man under the Law of Moses made one unclean for 7 days - the full number.

 

I do not believe that there is consciousness in death (Psalm 115:17).  Also, the faculties that would cause groaning are no longer functioning. The story told by our Lord of Lazarus and the rich man is irony, intended to show the hypocrisy of Pharisaic teaching.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

 

Edited May 26, 2022 by Christine

[Christine]

Hello again @AdHoc,

I do not believe there is consciousness in death (Psalm 115:17), neither is the ability to groan possible as the function by which a groan is produced is no longer living.  The story told by our Lord of the rich man and Lazarus was irony intended to show the hypocrisy of Pharisaic teaching.

Thank you,

In Christ Jesus,

Christine

 

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Adhoc

Wonderful post,I agree with MOST everything as you said it except,as Christine stated above

And as far as the "theif" and Jesus Statement to him on the cross I do believe the Word of God has been poorly translated just by punctuation marks( commas)-

Jesus told the thief" this day I tell you" or"I tell you this day" followed by" you will be with me in Paradise

Just my lil 2 cents,lol  100%on Resurrection -excellent,well said IMO

With love in Christ, Kwik

[AdHoc]

On 5/26/2022 at 1:30 PM, Christine said:

Hello AdHoc,

Thank you for your carefully considered response to this author of the above quote.

Man does not have an immortal soul, for we are told that, 'the soul that sinneth it shall die', and as 'all have sinned and come short of the glory of God,' then all die (Romans 6:23). 

Yes, when a person dies, whether saved or unsaved, the body goes back to the earth from whence it came, and the spirit (or breath of life) goes back to God Who gave it.  It remains in the place of the dead, or the grave, until it is resurrected by the power of God.

Resurrection life is a gift from God received by the believer on the Lord Jesus Christ, and will be the promised future possession of all who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (2 Timothy 1:1).

Please forgive my late response. Circumstances hindered me.

I can see why you come to this conclusion. When God made man, He made man in three parts (Gen.2:7). This is confirmed in 1st Thessalonians 5:23. You might notice that after Genesis 2:7 man is, almost without exception, called a "SOUL" (Gen.12:5, Ex.1:5, Lev.4:2, Act.2:41-43 etc. etc.). So in our study of scripture, we must apply the context to the word "soul". We must ask ask, is the man meant, or is his soul - the organ meant? Example;

15 And every soul that eateth that which died of itself, or that which was torn with beasts, whether it be one of your own country, or a stranger, he shall both wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even: then shall he be clean. 16 But if he wash them not, nor bathe his flesh; then he shall bear his iniquity. (Le 17:15–16)

Here, the man is meant. But in Proverbs 19:16 the organ is meant.

16 He that keepeth the commandment keepeth his own soul; but he that despiseth his ways shall die.

 

[AdHoc]

On 5/26/2022 at 1:48 PM, Christine said:

Hello again @AdHoc,

I do not believe there is consciousness in death (Psalm 115:17), neither is the ability to groan possible as the function by which a groan is produced is no longer living.  The story told by our Lord of the rich man and Lazarus was irony intended to show the hypocrisy of Pharisaic teaching.

Thank you,

In Christ Jesus,

Christine

 

In the Old Testament, man's relationship with the earth is in focus. So death ends all consciousness of the world he lives in. But in the New Testament, because the Christian is to forsake his claims on the earth and seek heavenly things, the focus is on his spirit (the organ for worship - Jn.4:24) and his soul (his disposition - 1st Pet.4-9). Both these organs cannot die in the sense of cessation of feeling, but the soul can nevertheless die (Matt.10:28). This is defined as "perdition" and the Greek means "exquisite lack of well-being". It does not mean cessation of sensory experience. Rather sensory experience is heightened. "Their torment rose rose like smoke day and night". "Their worm ... and Their fire ...." - very personal. I judge that the worm has to do with the suffering of the body, and fire, the soul (1st Pet.1:7)

Luke 16 is hotly debated among Bible students, so I am familiar with your understanding. For me, the matter is easily settled. Our Lord Jesus named men who actually lived. If the events told in the narrative did not actually happen, our Lord is caught in untruth. We are so accustomed in our daily lives to "stretch the truth" and tell little "white lies" to make a point, that we often forget that no untruth whatsoever proceeds from our Lord's mouth. He not only tells the truth, but IS the Truth (Jn.14:6). If the Lord meant a parable it would have read; "a certain man ... ", and "gathered to his father's bosom". But naming Abraham bound our Lord to the absolute truth.

But perhaps we can agree on one thing. The Lord has set a barrier between the living and the dead. He purposely does not want us to know too much about it. Necromancing was punishable by death under Law, and Paul was not allowed to report on his visit to Paradise. Saul's single encounter with a "soul" from the dead ended with his death

 

[AdHoc]

On 5/26/2022 at 4:28 PM, kwikphilly said:

Blessings Adhoc

Wonderful post,I agree with MOST everything as you said it except,as Christine stated above

And as far as the "theif" and Jesus Statement to him on the cross I do believe the Word of God has been poorly translated just by punctuation marks( commas)-

Jesus told the thief" this day I tell you" or"I tell you this day" followed by" you will be with me in Paradise

Just my lil 2 cents,lol  100%on Resurrection -excellent,well said IMO

With love in Christ, Kwik

Please forgive my delayed answer. Circumstances intervened.

The reason for either argument is that the Greek has no punctuation and the translators had to insert it for it to make sense. The history of the King James is well-known. When 47 of the best Greek and Hebrew scholars agree of something, it is powerful testimony. I'm not saying they did not make mistakes, but there is a thing called peer-pressure. If 45 of the top students agreed on something, the remaining 2 could lose their reputation by advocating something else. The argument of the placing of the comma has support - but of what caliber ... ?

Added to this, both the economical style of the New Testament, and the normal usage of language are against your version. Nobody says; "Today I tell you ... " because it is plain that you are speaking today. It does not have to be said. But if there was a Law of Moses that forbade bodies hanging on tree after sunset, and the thief was still alive as sunset approached, only the Lord would have known at 3:00 p.m. that the Romans would submit to this Jewish Law by breaking the thief's legs to induce shock. Nobody but our Lord knew that the robust thieves would be dead "that day" - for the Jewish/Biblical day ends at sunset.

Lastly, the recorded sequence of events must be considered. Matthew 12:40 says that our Lord would spend 3 days in "the heart of the earth". Ephesians 4 9 says that our Lord "Descended FIRST". John 20:17 tell us that our Lord Jesus had NOT YET ascended to the Father by resurrection morning. Acts 2:27-34 says that our Lord Jesus went to Hades but God allowed Him out - unlike David. If you put this all together like a good detective only one conclusion is allowed. Paradise is in Hades under the earth and the thief AND Jesus both went to the same place - that day (before sunset).

The only argument against this is quickly defeated. In 2nd Corinthians 12:4 Paul records that he was caught "UP" into Paradise. But the Greek for that is correctly rendered "Caught AWAY" - as in Acts.8:39. The Greek word indicates movement BUT NOT DIRECTION. The translators inserted "UP" based on a thousand years of Roman Catholic doctrine - not the Greek. And so there is not a shred of evidence that our Lord did anything else but meet the thief in Paradise, under the earth, THAT DAY.

 

[kwikphilly]

Actually, you are correct - nobody says " today I tell you..." but nobody says " face beautiful" or" house ugly" for that matter - I'm giving a little example of translation by using a very very simple phrase translated from Italian  .... Its beautiful face  or an ugly house.....that is a literal translation and not a  word for word -translating Italian (like most languages)word for word is backwards

That's only one contributing factor when considering the actual intent of the author when literally translating from one language to another

Now we are trying to determine intent from an ancient language ... People did speak much differently than we do today or even in Old English. " This day I tell you" would be a familiar phrase in Ancient Greece and/ or Rome

Linguistics are not my forte, I've hardly studied it to any extent - the one and only reason I ever gave any thought to the verse we are discussing was because it was Revealed to me after much prayer and inquiring of the Lord

I sat one day looking down at that particular verse of Scripture when suddenly " commas" moved- I was quite amazed and Filled with great Joy to Receive that Understanding- I can only share my personal Testimony and it is up to the listener to inquire of the Lord themselves or do their own research& study.... My own research ended at that moment of Revelation- which was AFTER my own intellectual efforts

God Bless you

In His Love, Kwik

BTW, before that day I had a very different perspective and set of beliefs regarding the things discussed in this thread &:the Topic

 

[branchesofHim]

On 5/22/2022 at 6:34 AM, AdHoc said:

A full study of this matter takes a small book. Many factors have not been addressed.

Colossians 3:[1] If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
[2] Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
[3] For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
[4] When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

[AdHoc]

5 hours ago, kwikphilly said:

Actually, you are correct - nobody says " today I tell you..." but nobody says " face beautiful" or" house ugly" for that matter - I'm giving a little example of translation by using a very very simple phrase translated from Italian  .... Its beautiful face  or an ugly house.....that is a literal translation and not a  word for word -translating Italian (like most languages)word for word is backwards

That's only one contributing factor when considering the actual intent of the author when literally translating from one language to another

Now we are trying to determine intent from an ancient language ... People did speak much differently than we do today or even in Old English. " This day I tell you" would be a familiar phrase in Ancient Greece and/ or Rome

Linguistics are not my forte, I've hardly studied it to any extent - the one and only reason I ever gave any thought to the verse we are discussing was because it was Revealed to me after much prayer and inquiring of the Lord

I sat one day looking down at that particular verse of Scripture when suddenly " commas" moved- I was quite amazed and Filled with great Joy to Receive that Understanding- I can only share my personal Testimony and it is up to the listener to inquire of the Lord themselves or do their own research& study.... My own research ended at that moment of Revelation- which was AFTER my own intellectual efforts

God Bless you

In His Love, Kwik

BTW, before that day I had a very different perspective and set of beliefs regarding the things discussed in this thread &:the Topic

 

The beauty of a personal search/encounter/experience is that no one can deny it and no one can take it away. It was yours, and remains yours. Sometimes we who turn over every full stop miss the wood because of the trees. Suffice to say that I'm with you and do not deny your experience. I've been there myself.

Go well