Jake for Jesus Posted September 25, 2005 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 111 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/10/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted September 25, 2005 (edited) Greetings in Jesus! I have chosen to start a discussion about the relationship between faith and works. For my part, as a Christian believer, I see the relationship between faith and works as being an important subject which is referred to in many passages of the New Testament. Yet remarkably, for my part at least, I find that there is little teaching given on the relationship between faith and works in most Christian circles today. As a result, I believe that a good many Christians are left in confusion or partial bondage, and to be in a kind of twlight being in some place half way between law and grace. Also I believe that not a few Christians, through ignorance on this point, are led astray into false teachings which lay unscriptural emphasis on the observance of some particular day or eating of certain special foods or other similar matters of law. As a Christian believer what does by "faith" or by "works" mean to you? For my part, based on my understanding by "faith" to means "that which we believe," and by "works" means "that which we do." Therefore I believe that we can express the relationship between faith and works as taught in the New Testament by the following contrast: Faith is not based on works, but works are the outcome of faith. Or, in still simpler words: What we believe is not based on what we do, but what we believe. What does the relationship between faith and works as taught in the New Testament mean to you as a Christian believer? Edited September 25, 2005 by Jake for Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiosh Posted September 25, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 73 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,663 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/20/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted September 25, 2005 arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OH NO, HERE WE GO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Catholics don your riot gear and pick up your shields.........here come the rocks! Only teasing, Jake. It might actually be good to tackle this one again and try to clear the air. But , right now I need to get to Mass. Be back tonite. It should be interesting. I have only one very heartfelt request to all who post.............. I beg you please, say what YOU believe about this topic and refrain from telling me what I believe. If you feel an urgent need to explain the "error" of what the Catholic Church teaches, then at least KNOW what it teaches first. Check a website. You can read the Catechism of the Catholic Church on line. Don't assume you know, and then begin to bash what you believe, in error , to be what the RCC holds as doctrine. The Catholic Church believes and teaches that there is no salvation apart from the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. Thanks and God lead you in this discussion. Proceed........................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake for Jesus Posted September 25, 2005 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 111 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/10/2005 Status: Offline Author Share Posted September 25, 2005 (edited) Fiosh wrote: OH NO, HERE WE GO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Catholics do get your riot gear and pick up your shields.........here come the rocks! Only teasing, Jake. My Response: In PSALM 119:63 David says (I like the way that passage reads in the New International Version): "I am a friend to all who fear you, to all who follow your precepts." Some years ago, someone had told me that how his wife had once shocked a Catholic lady, who was their neighbor, by remarking casually. "Of course there won't be any Catholics in heaven." As their neighbor this lady stood opened mouthed with shock and astonishment, he told me his wife quickly added, "There won't be any Protestants either. Heaven is for those who love and obey God." I believe that I would have to agree with his wife. I believe she was right! But do we have to wait until we reach heaven to make this discovery? I don't think we do. For I believe that already here on earth, between people SUCH AS DAVID DESCRIBES: there is a bond of love and inner understanding that transcends all human religious labels. I hope this does not turn into a thing you described, but if that does happen. It won't be by people who are the kind of people David describes. May God give us a heart of love for all those who fear Him and follow His precepts. Edited September 25, 2005 by Jake for Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khristeeanos Posted September 25, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 109 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,278 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 29 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/07/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted September 25, 2005 We are saved by grace through faith in baptism for good works according to the Bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted September 25, 2005 Share Posted September 25, 2005 arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OH NO, HERE WE GO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Catholics don your riot gear and pick up your shields.........here come the rocks!                               Only teasing, Jake.  It might actually be good to tackle this one again and try to clear the air. But , right now I need to get to Mass. Be back tonite. It should be interesting. I have only one very heartfelt request to all who post.............. I beg you please, say what YOU believe about this topic and refrain from telling me what I believe. If you feel an urgent need to explain the "error" of what the Catholic Church teaches, then at least KNOW what it teaches first. Check a website. You can read the Catechism of the Catholic Church on line. Don't assume you know, and then begin to bash what you believe, in error , to be what the RCC holds as doctrine. The Catholic Church believes and teaches that there is no salvation apart from the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. Thanks and God lead you in this discussion. Proceed........................... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Actually, it will degenerate into a "Once Saved, Always Saved," debate to be honest. These "Works vs. Faith" topics always do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted September 25, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted September 25, 2005 What does the relationship between faith and works as taught in the New Testament mean to you as a Christian believer? In the words of D.C. Talk - "Love is a verb." Belief means nothing if you don't act on it. And if your faith has no "feet and hands" so to speak, how will anyone know there is faith? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake for Jesus Posted September 25, 2005 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 111 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/10/2005 Status: Offline Author Share Posted September 25, 2005 (edited) Shiloh wrote: Actually, it will degenerate into a "Once Saved, Always Saved," debate to be honest. These "Works vs. Faith" topics always do. My Response: May do! Only, I don't have interest really in discussing the OSAS thing! Nor "Works vs Faith." What I have interest in is in discussing what the Scriptures reveal about the relation between faith and works. Based on my understanding of the Bible, in my own limited way. I say that because I want to be humble, you see. (smiling) According to my understanding faith is not based on works. In others words, what we believe is not based on on what we do. For my part, I have discovered that the whole New Testament bears consistent testimony to this vital truth. I find this fact supported by the account of the final moments of the sufferings of Jesus upon the cross. For JOHN 19:30 says So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His Spirit. I discovered that the Greek word translated "it is finished" is the most emphatic word that could have possibly been used. It is the perfect tense of the verb which itself means to do a thing perfectly. We might perhaps bring this out by translating: "It is perfectly perfect," or "It is completely complete." There remains nothing more whatsoever to do. All that ever needed to be done to pay the penalty of men's sins and to purchase salvation for all men has already been accomplished by the sufferings and death of Christ upon the cross. I believe to suggest that any man might ever need to do anything more than Christ has already done would be to reject the testimony of God's Word and to discredit the efficacy of Christ's atonement. In light of this, I believe that any attempt by any man to earn salvation by his own good works would be in effect an insult both to God the Father and to God the Son. For that carries the implication that the work of atonement and salvation, planned by the Father and carried out by the Son, is in some sense inadequate or incomplete, and I see that as being contrary to the unanimous testimony of the entire New Testament. Moreover, Paul had continually and emphatically taught this. For example, in ROMANS 4:4-5 he says: Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness. Notice the phrase "to him who does not work but believes." In order to obtain salvation by faith, the first thing any man must do is to stop "working" ---- to stop trying to earn salvation. Salvation comes through faith alone, through doing nothing but believing. So long as a man tries to do anything whatever to earn salvation, he cannot experience the salvation of God which is received by faith alone. Now I address this to all. So what do you think? Do you agree? Or do you think I am wrong? What do you believe? Edited September 25, 2005 by Jake for Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted September 25, 2005 Share Posted September 25, 2005 I believe to suggest that any man might ever need to do anything more than Christ has already done would be to reject the testimony of God's Word and to discredit the efficacy of Christ's atonement. In light of this, I believe that any attempt by any man to earn salvation by his own good works would be in effect an insult both to God the Father and to God the Son. For that carries the implication that the work of atonement and salvation, planned by the Father and carried out by the Son, is in some sense inadequate or incomplete, and I see that as being contrary to the unanimous testimony of the entire New Testament. In order to obtain salvation by faith, the first thing any man must do is to stop "working" ---- to stop trying to earn salvation. Salvation comes through faith alone, through doing nothing but believing. So long as a man tries to do anything whatever to earn salvation, he cannot experience the salvation of God which is received by faith alone. I have to completely agree with this. This is the best thing you have posted to date!! Faith does not come from works. Rather, works demonstrate our faith and principles of grace God has placed in us at the moment we are born again!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake for Jesus Posted September 25, 2005 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 111 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/10/2005 Status: Offline Author Share Posted September 25, 2005 (edited) Shiloh wrote: I have to completely agree with this. My Response: It was my thought you may would agree, but stay will me for I am going to try to fully cover this in sharing my theological convictions in relation to faith and works. And ultimately there well may be some things I may say that you may not agree with. Any way, we shall see. Of course, if I am wrong. I stand to be corrected. That is, if it can be clearly shown to me in Scripture. (smiling) Edited September 25, 2005 by Jake for Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted September 25, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted September 25, 2005 Jake - Are we talking about salvation or Christian living? I am feeling confused here. For salvation is not merrited on works. However, Christian living does merit works - you know - producing fruit. Jesus said that the trees that do not produce fruit are chopped down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts