The woman in Revelation 12

[Markie51]

 

The woman that John sees in heaven is not a literal woman.  She is a sign, or a symbol.-Revelation 1:1.

In some scriptures, women are represented as organizations “married” to inanimate things/beings and used symbolically in prophicies.  In the Old Testament, Israel was spoken of as a wife of God. (Isaiah 54:5; Jeremiah 3:14, 20; 31:31 Hosea 2:2, 7, 16)   In the New Testament, the congregation of anointed Christians is spoken of as Christ’s bride. (Revelation 21:9-14)  The symbolic woman John sees is also symbolically married to someone, and she is about to give birth.  Later her child is “caught away to God and to his throne.” (Revelation 12:5)  God claims the child as his own.  Therefore, the woman that John sees must be God’s symbolic wife.

Centuries earlier, God had addressed this symbolic wife. (Isaiah 54:5, 13)  Jesus quoted this prophecy and showed that these sons were his faithful followers, who later formed the congregation of anointed Christians. (John 6:44, 45)  So these members, spoken of as God’s sons, are also children of God’s symbolic wife. (Romans 8:14)  The apostle Paul adds the final piece of information when he says: “The Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.” (Genesis 3:15; Galatians 4:26; Philippians 3:20)  The “woman” seen by John, then, is “the Jerusalem above.”

Since Paul spoke of her as “above,” and John sees her in heaven, she is clearly not an earthly city; neither is she the same as “New Jerusalem,” since that organization is the bride of Christ. (Revelation 21:2)  Notice that she is crowned with 12 stars.  The number 12 is associated with completeness in an organizational setting.  Hence, these 12 stars seem to indicate that she is an organizational arrangement in heaven, just as ancient Jerusalem was on earth.  Jerusalem above is Jehovah’s universal organization of spirit creatures that acts as his wife, both in serving him and in producing symbolic offspring.

[Your closest friendnt]

8 hours ago, Markie51 said:

 

The woman that John sees in heaven is not a literal woman.  She is a sign, or a symbol.-Revelation 1:1.

In some scriptures, women are represented as organizations “married” to inanimate things/beings and used symbolically in prophicies.  In the Old Testament, Israel was spoken of as a wife of God. (Isaiah 54:5; Jeremiah 3:14, 20; 31:31 Hosea 2:2, 7, 16)   In the New Testament, the congregation of anointed Christians is spoken of as Christ’s bride. (Revelation 21:9-14)  The symbolic woman John sees is also symbolically married to someone, and she is about to give birth.  Later her child is “caught away to God and to his throne.” (Revelation 12:5)  God claims the child as his own.  Therefore, the woman that John sees must be God’s symbolic wife.

Centuries earlier, God had addressed this symbolic wife. (Isaiah 54:5, 13)  Jesus quoted this prophecy and showed that these sons were his faithful followers, who later formed the congregation of anointed Christians. (John 6:44, 45)  So these members, spoken of as God’s sons, are also children of God’s symbolic wife. (Romans 8:14)  The apostle Paul adds the final piece of information when he says: “The Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.” (Genesis 3:15; Galatians 4:26; Philippians 3:20)  The “woman” seen by John, then, is “the Jerusalem above.”

Since Paul spoke of her as “above,” and John sees her in heaven, she is clearly not an earthly city; neither is she the same as “New Jerusalem,” since that organization is the bride of Christ. (Revelation 21:2)  Notice that she is crowned with 12 stars.  The number 12 is associated with completeness in an organizational setting.  Hence, these 12 stars seem to indicate that she is an organizational arrangement in heaven, just as ancient Jerusalem was on earth.  Jerusalem above is Jehovah’s universal organization of spirit creatures that acts as his wife, both in serving him and in producing symbolic offspring.

I find it quite difficult to follow you. 

The description of the woman is simple..

There is no need for genealogy, important is that she is a woman chosen by God for a special purpose. 

This can be seen that she was trench in the light of God...and her baby was born in the Nation of Israel you can see that the moon is below her, she gave birth to the one who was to come from God into the Jewish nation. 

[Vine Abider]

16 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

This can be seen that she was trench in the light of God...and her baby was born in the Nation of Israel you can see that the moon is below her, she gave birth to the one who was to come from God into the Jewish nation. 

I don't think there's been much discussion who the woman's child is, so I'd like to bring this up again as a way of perhaps identifying who the woman is.  I do think the child is Christ, but in this aspect - the One Grain fell (Jesus) into the ground to die in order to produce many grains (us).  That is, I see the child as being corporate, not an individual (as in Jesus himself).

Anybody else see it that way?

[Your closest friendnt]

2 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

I don't think there's been much discussion who the woman's child is, so I'd like to bring this up again as a way of perhaps identifying who the woman is.  I do think the child is Christ, but in this aspect - the One Grain fell (Jesus) into the ground to die in order to produce many grains (us).  That is, I see the child as being corporate, not an individual (as in Jesus himself).

Anybody else see it that way?

This is what I am trying to say that we can definitely identify her child as being Jesus...

[Vine Abider]

2 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

This is what I am trying to say that we can definitely identify her child as being Jesus...

Did you already see the reasons I don't believe it is Jesus?

[Your closest friendnt]

6 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

Did you already see the reasons I don't believe it is Jesus?

There is something in your statement that it should be considered because the dragon it started trying to devour the son of the woman in verse 4, and then when he failed and the Son was taken to Heaven. 

This is the first part, and from the narrative we can identify the son whom the Devil tried to kill by the hand of Herod...and through out his life all the way to the Cross...and who was taken to Heaven and the Son is identified as the one "who will ruled all the Nations with an Iron scepter ". I cannot think for anyone other than Jesus to whom the above narrative may applied. 

Now we have the second part where the woman is identified as the someone else and not necessarily as a woman as the one who gave birth to the Son, but as something that producing children for God , could it be the faith in JesusChrist, or the Gospel of Jesus Christ..or someone can say the "church" or Jesus who gives the life to those who believe in him, the Spiritual children who believe in him because is talking about her children having overcome the Devil by the blood of the Lamb and their testimony and those children are in Heaven and then after the great dragon who is identified as the ancient Serpent, as the Devil had failed to wipe out the church to the extinction and the woman surviving all the attacks of the Serpent and him failing to accomplish his intent, he turned away and to her other children. In the later context the woman is identified as the church or as the Christian faith as the Gospel of Jesus Christ...who is producing children continuously, the first children he fought against were the twelve disciples who all of them were martyr and they remained faithful till the end and other believers with them.

But the Devil could not bring to extinction the Gospel and who continue to produce children and the narrative suggest that the persecution of the children will continue and that's what the devil is left to do...after failing to kill the head of the Gospel the Patriarch of the children and after failing to bring the Gospel to extinction...now he is after the other children who continually are born not by an earthly Patriarch but by faith in the Gospel of Jesus Christ...the woman in the later part is referring to someone else than the woman in  the first part who was pregnant and gave birth to a Son in child birth...

The other children are the children born by believing Jesus died for the forgiveness of their sins, the born from above children...because earlier it said that they overcame him by the Blood of the Lamb and their testimony, both bunches of those children are believers of Jesus Christ...note that the dragon went against the other children and the way it said that is said to show that happens continuously and without end...or till the end of the dragon comes...so to speak. 

Certainly the Woman who gave birth cannot be the woman literary of the other children. But is the woman who have birth to the one who will have children by faith in his name...

 

Edited November 18, 2022 by Your closest friendnt

[Vine Abider]

15 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

This is the first part, and from the narrative we can identify the son whom the Devil tried to kill by the hand of Herod...and through out his life all the way to the Cross...and who was taken to Heaven and the Son is identified as the one "who will ruled all the Nations with an Iron scepter ". I cannot think for anyone other than Jesus to whom the above narrative may applied. 

Five Key Points to consider:

1. If you think the man child is Jesus, then it might stand to reason that the woman is Mary or Israel.  However, this doesn't fit the narrative of Revelation, because we are told the book is looking toward future events. (see Rev 1:1 & 1:19)  Therefore, looking back at Jesus' birth (or ascension) does not fit.

2. We see the woman is removed from the dragon to go into the wilderness and twice in Rev 14 it uses words designating a 3.5 year period for this.  This timing fits the Great Tribulation period, but does not fit anything from around the birth of Jesus.  Joseph, Mary & Jesus did flee from Herod to Egypt - but Egypt is not a wilderness and their time in Egypt was not 3.5 years (and this timing in no way points to Israel either). 

3. The overcoming saints are told in Rev 2:27 that they will "rule the nations with an iron rod," therefore Jesus is not the only one this is said of.

4. When the man child goes up into heaven, a loud voice declares (12:10-11): 

“Now have come the salvation and the power

and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of His Christ.

For the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down—

he who accuses them day and night before our God.

11They have overcome him by the blood of the Lamb

and by the word of their testimony.

And they did not love their  soul-lives unto death."

Certainly this must be the man-child speaking --> it does NOT fit that it is Jesus speaking here. So who could it be?  There are pretty strong clues . . .

5. The devil being cast out of heaven doesn't fit with Christ's ascension either.  It does fit quite well with the beginning of the 3.5 year Great Trib - when he is cast down it says that he knows things are wrapping up quickly, so he will reek havoc on the earth and go after God's remaining people during the short time he has left. 

Please read Revelation 12 again, keeping these 5 things in mind.

Edited November 18, 2022 by Vine Abider
For better clarity

[Your closest friendnt]

7 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

Five Key Points:

1. If you think the man child is Jesus, then it stands to reason that the woman is Mary. Some may instead say the woman is Israel and Jesus was produced from that nation, but this doesn't fit the narrative of Revelation, because we are told the book is looking toward future events. (see Rev 1:1 & 1:19)  Therefore, looking back at Jesus' birth does not fit.

2. We see the woman is removed from the dragon to the wilderness and twice in Rev 14 it uses words for a 3.5 year period for this.  This timing fits the Great Tribulation period, but nothing from around the birth of Jesus.  Joseph, Mary & Jesus fled from Herod to Egypt - not a wilderness and not for 3.5 years (and this timing in no way points to Israel either). 

3. The overcoming saints are told in Rev 2:27 that they will "rule the nations with an iron rod," therefore Jesus is not the only one this is said of.

4. When the man child goes up into heaven, a loud voice declares (12:10-11): 

“Now have come the salvation and the power

and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of His Christ.

For the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down—

he who accuses them day and night before our God.

11They have overcome him by the blood of the Lamb

and by the word of their testimony.

And they did not love their  soul-lives unto death."

Certainly this is the man-child speaking, but it does not fit that it is Jesus speaking - who could it be?  There are pretty strong clues . . .

5. The devil being cast out of heaven doesn't fit with Christ's ascension either.  It does fit quite well with the beginning of the 3.5 year Great Trib - when he is cast down it says that he knows things are wrapping up quickly, so he will reek havoc on the earth. 

Please read Revelation 12 again, keeping these 5 things in mind.

This is a lot of study and needs to proceed point by point. 

Re: point 1

In the narrative of revelation 12: the woman is described as follows in verse 1-2

1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stard on her head. 

2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 

The negatives, the woman is not identified by name, or by her genealogy, but is identified by symbolism.

Neither the child that is born is identified by name or by reference to genealogy.

But is identify as a child with a strong reference that he is "the Son", not as a baby boy, the reference to a child it is made only for boys...

But in this narrative it is emphasizes by calling him a Son...we should consider that because is giving a message, is trying to communicate something unusual, not common about the child..

In verse 4:  The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth,

so that it might devour her child the moment he was born.

* it might devour her child (and then, the child is referring to a he) the moment he was born. 

I verse 5, She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.”

* the woman is referred to as "She", a woman who was pregnant for the full gestation period of nine months and she gave birth while experiencing the labor pains of the child birth..

There are symbolic clues about the Father of the Son.

Which we who are reading this narrative after the fact knowing the particulars of the birth of the Son of the woman and his conception in the Gospel of Luke and in the book of Isaiah..and in the symbolic clues of the description in verse 1 and 2,  

"a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth."  

The only reference to any woman cloth with the "Sun" which is a symbolic reference to God, as the Angel Gabriel said in Luke that the Holy Spirit will come over you are overshadow you and the Holy child to be born will be called the Son of God.  

The need it is apparent to show that in the book of revelation we have descendants of events that have taken place..

As in point 1, a statement is made asking: does the revelation is referring to events that have taken place? or just to future events from that time on and forwards. 

In point one there is a reference to revelation 1:1, and 1:19 

And I will add to that something that is not mentioned in the study of the argument that revelation only is referring to future events from the time the Lord spoke to John and forwards. 

**Revelation 1:1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. 

**Revelation 1:19 Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later. 

Revelation 4:1-3 After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” 2 At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it. 3 And the one who sat there had the appearance of jasper and ruby. A rainbow that shone like an emerald encircled the throne

The study has to be around the statement in point one, 

"Some may instead say the woman is Israel and Jesus was produced from that nation, but this doesn't fit the narrative of Revelation, because we are told the book is looking toward future events. (see Rev 1:1 & 1:19)  Therefore, looking back at Jesus' birth does not fit." 

Because the outcome of the study depends and can very and the resulting conclusion will affect the outcome if it is only future events described and not reference is made to past events that have set the outcome of events to come from the time this revelation is given to John and forwards.

Not for events to come or have not yet come as it is nothing that has come from John's time till our time, and only from our time to the future. 

As it was said from the time of John's and forwards and without precluding to reference to events that have taken place...

In point 1, statements are made at the last paragraph about that matter, but not supporting arguments to substantiate the claim that reference to past events cannot be made, that the effects of those events have shape the future events..

We need to do a study on that matter..

Because in verse 17 of Chapter 12, something is taken place that has not stopped taking place beginning a little after the Cross and resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ as it is pointed that the prosecution of the children started after the Son was taken to Heaven...

*Revelation 12:17 17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

Or what we read in verse 11, has not taken place before the revelation was given to John and is not continuously taking place and will continue to take place..

Revelation 1:19 Write, therefore, WHAT YOU HAVE SEEN WHAT, WHAT IS NOW AND WHAT WILL TAKE PLACE LATER.

What you have seen...

what is now and ( the NOW is formed of the events that have presided the NOW and John being the eye witness to those events..of past events.

We cannot have the death of Jesus on the Cross if we did not have his birth, and we cannot have his miraculus birth if we did not have the need for that and to understand that we must referred to a lot of the past events that takes us  to "now" and from the now to what is coming...the past events are part of the NOW and to what is COMING there after. 

What will take place. 

Edited November 18, 2022 by Your closest friendnt

[truth7t7]

1 hour ago, Da Puppers said:

I am amazed at how often this topic is discussed and Isa 66 is never mentioned. 

Isa 66:6-22 KJV ⁶ A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies. ⁷ Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child. ⁸ Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. ⁹ Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God. ¹⁰ Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her: ¹¹ That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations; that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory. ¹² For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees. ¹³ As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem. ¹⁴ And when ye see this, your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the LORD shall be known toward his servants, and his indignation toward his enemies. ¹⁵ For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. ¹⁶ For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many. ¹⁷ They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD. ¹⁸ For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory. ¹⁹ And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles. ²⁰ And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD. ²¹ And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD. ²² For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

The woman is Zion/ Jerusalem 

Her child is born in accordance of the dragon being cast out of heaven.   He rules  all nations with a rod or iron.  He comes when salvation and strength and the kingdom of our God has come.

Her seed,  are her children,  those children who shall suck the breasts of their mother, Jerusalem.    They are those that love Zion.  They are those that keep the commandments of God AND have the testimony of Jesus. 

Her mother shall go into the wilderness for 1260 days.   It shall happen when the 10 kings shall hate the woman and burn her with fire.   It shall happen when the Lord shall come with flaming fire.   His indignation shall then be toward his adversaries and his hand shall be known toward his servants.   It shall happen when the LORD shall send the rod of thy strength to rule in the midst of his enemies.   The Deliverer shall come to Zion and turn away ungodliness from Jacob.   Jesus is the Deliverer.   Jesus is the man- child who shall rule the nations. 

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

Scripture teaches that the 144,000 the remnant church will be localized to Jerusalem, and ethnic to the location Israel, "the remnant of his heritage"

Below you see the future fulfilling of the gentiles and desolation in Jerusalem, armies from the worlds nations, from sea to sea

Below you see the Remnant being fed in the wilderness of Carmel, Bashan, Gilead, manna from heaven, as in the days of old in coming out of Egypt, the world watches in fear of the Lords power

Revelation 12:6KJV

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Micah 7:10-18KJV

10 Then she that is mine enemy shall see it, and shame shall cover her which said unto me, Where is the Lord thy God? mine eyes shall behold her: now shall she be trodden down as the mire of the streets.

11 In the day that thy walls are to be built, in that day shall the decree be far removed.

12 In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.

13 Notwithstanding the land shall be desolate because of them that dwell therein, for the fruit of their doings.

14 Feed thy people with thy rod, the flock of thine heritage, which dwell solitarily in the wood, in the midst of Carmel: let them feed in Bashan and Gilead, as in the days of old.

15 According to the days of thy coming out of the land of Egypt will I shew unto him marvellous things.

16 The nations shall see and be confounded at all their might: they shall lay their hand upon their mouth, their ears shall be deaf.

17 They shall lick the dust like a serpent, they shall move out of their holes like worms of the earth: they shall be afraid of the Lord our God, and shall fear because of thee.

18 Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy.

Edited November 19, 2022 by truth7t7

[Vine Abider]

2 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

 

Her seed,  are her children,  those children who shall suck the breasts of their mother, Jerusalem.    They are those that love Zion.  They are those that keep the commandments of God AND have the testimony of Jesus. 

Her mother shall go into the wilderness for 1260 days.   It shall happen when the 10 kings shall hate the woman and burn her with fire.   It shall happen when the Lord shall come with flaming fire.   His indignation shall then be toward his adversaries and his hand shall be known toward his servants.   It shall happen when the LORD shall send the rod of thy strength to rule in the midst of his enemies.   The Deliverer shall come to Zion and turn away ungodliness from Jacob.   Jesus is the Deliverer.   Jesus is the man- child who shall rule the nations. 

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

Thanks for sharing that!  So according to the New Covenant there will be a New Jerusalem, and this will comprise all of God's children from both OT and NT.  As it says in Hebrews 11:10, Abraham was looking for this city.  So I think you are right on with the woman being all of God's people.

And you are right that Christ is the man child, but it's Christ in His children.  As He tells the overcomers in Rev 2:27, they will rule with an iron rod.  Again, it's Christ in them.  As you said above, "Her seed are her children."

This is what is so wonderful about Revelation 12 - Jesus came to take the authority back from the "ruler of this world" and He has given that authority to us.  The man child is the culmination of His people using their God-given authority to give the dragon the boot!

(Read the declaration in Rev 12:10-11 . . . it is the children who are speaking who overcame the devil)

Edited November 19, 2022 by Vine Abider
For better clarity