Where are Believers when the Body Dies - immediately and ultimately?

[Roymond]

On 12/12/2022 at 1:14 PM, Dennis1209 said:

 

I will not go into details, but there was a gate to enter Jeusalem during Jesus's time walking the earth named the “the eye of the needle.” A camel could pass through, but it had to be unpacked and specially trained to crawl through that gate, it was not impossible, but many could not pass through.

Through the Eye of an ACTUAL Needle: The Fake Gate Theory – Classic Theology

Luke 18:25 (KJV) For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

 

Are you aware that the article you linked says there was and is no such gate?  It's just tourist-bait to make tourists think they've seen something special.

Something "going through the eye of a needle" was a rabbinic trope; going by memory there was "a cable through the eye of a needle", used to describe arguing a point with a weak argument; "a book through the eye of a needle", an obvious take-off of the cable image, referring to claims to understand someone's writings and meaning the claimant doesn't have a clue; and a famous "elephant through the eye of a needle" referring to how hard it was to get a certain rabbi to stop talking and let someone else speak.  So Jesus' audiences were familiar with the "eye of the needle" illustration, and there's good reason to think that He's making a dual word-play, since the word for "cable" and "camel" sound almost identical and the idea of an animal going through the eye of a needle involved an elephant, so it could be a side comment on the obtuseness of some of the scribes and others always hanging around the edges of His audience trying to catch Him in something.

[Roymond]

On 12/12/2022 at 4:15 PM, missmuffet said:

I  don't want a huge answer that I could publish. I want a simple answer. I am done with this. I am just wondering if you believe in soul sleep. That is when a person believes that the body and soul stay in the grave. The soul does not immediatedly go to heaven. 

I haven't read all the present answers (made it to page 5, then just skimmed) but there's an idea that hasn't been mentioned that comes, amazingly enough, from a few centuries back, and starts with the assertion that we are confusing time and eternity when we discuss this topic.

Imagine people on a train.  they've been moving along the track, some ahead and some behind depending on which cars they're in.  In terms of being on the train, there is a definite order to their presence, such that when the conductor comes to collect tickets he starts with the first and moves to the last.  But when they come into the station and get off, they are no longer moving along the track, and no longer in that linear order from inside the train; instead they all step off at an angle to that path, leaving the train and all standing on the platform.  Before, they'd all been in different places on their journey, but now they are all on the same place.

Now consider time as a line, with everyone loving along it in the same direction (yes, this is the first place eternity intrudes; we're thinking of the whole line of time as existing at once), from the distant past on into the future.  Time is thus somewhat like the train, everyone moving in the same direction but in a definite order that separates people by years and lifetimes and centuries.  When someone dies, it's like getting to the station and stepping onto the platform -- and from the view from outside the line, from outside of time, everyone steps off at once (there's the second place where eternity intrudes; from the eternal perspective, everyone dies at the same time because dying means leaving the line and stepping onto the "platform").  Thus when Ebernicus dies in 53 A.D. and Havram dies in 286 and Pepin dies in 638 and James dies in 1104, and all the rest of us who die whenever it may be, we all realize that we have all just stepped off the timeline at what would now be for us the same moment.

In this view there is no soul sleep, no waiting around for centuries to go by, there's just one moment in which we all step out of life and into... well, the Hebrew calls it "Sheol", place of the dead.  We all go from life into the shadows. 

This solves the issue with the declaration that a person dies once and then there's the judgment:  it's a literal "and then the judgment" because all step off the line of life and onto the platform of Sheol at the same moment.

But it doesn't end there:  the speculative and somewhat mystic theologian who came up with this view took note of the verse that says that Jesus went and preached to the "spirits in prison".  This has traditionally been taken to mean all the people who had already died and were hanging around waiting, but taking the above as our foundation it turns out that the spirits to whom Jesus preached are those of every human who ever lived -- past right on into the future!  It is the Light coming into the place of shadows, and those who love the Light are drawn to Him and the rest cringe away.

Then that becomes the moment when the lovers of the Light join Him and pop into the skies above Earth to confront the only ones who weren't on the "platform", the ones who are still alive when the calendar runs out.

So all deaths drop us into Sheol at the same moment, Jesus preaches to all of us, those who are His because they love the Light are joined to Him while the rest remain in darkness, and God the Father announces, "Party over!" and Jesus comes in the vast clouds of witnesses.

.

addendum:  you know the "thousand years are like a day" idea?  in this understanding that would be obviously true because God isn't on the timeline in the first place!  sure, God the Son joined us on that line, but He stepped back off and into eternity.  so not only are a thousand years like a day, a million years are like an hour and a billion years are like a minute, because from the perspective of eternity they're all just bits on the line..

[Your closest friendnt]

13 minutes ago, Roymond said:

Are you aware that the article you linked says there was and is no such gate?  It's just tourist-bait to make tourists think they've seen something special.

Something "going through the eye of a needle" was a rabbinic trope; going by memory there was "a cable through the eye of a needle", used to describe arguing a point with a weak argument; "a book through the eye of a needle", an obvious take-off of the cable image, referring to claims to understand someone's writings and meaning the claimant doesn't have a clue; and a famous "elephant through the eye of a needle" referring to how hard it was to get a certain rabbi to stop talking and let someone else speak.  So Jesus' audiences were familiar with the "eye of the needle" illustration, and there's good reason to think that He's making a dual word-play, since the word for "cable" and "camel" sound almost identical and the idea of an animal going through the eye of a needle involved an elephant, so it could be a side comment on the obtuseness of some of the scribes and others always hanging around the edges of His audience trying to catch Him in something.

When Jesus said that his disciples understood and relate to it for this was something that had a meaning just like an idiom...

It had nothing to do with a camel trying to go through the opening in the wall of the city that man could go but the camel could not because the opening was enough for a man to go through only...

That could also be translated in this way because the man will refused to leave his camel and he will not go through the opening of the wall and in this way he may have to stay of the city walls at night and suffer damage by some wild beast or thieves. 

I side with this take because the man he loved his camel and he did not want to leave his camel alone outside the safety of the city walls.  He would have to wait for the gates to open in the morning...

One of the reasons for referring this take is because Jesus said that after he asked the rich young man to leave everything he had and follow him...and the young rich  man he could not do that and he walked away....

I do not want to comment on this man decision because we do not know the follow up if he decided to do that at some time later on.

And it really it did matter to something...because later when the Gospel was preached he should be invited to believe in Jesus Christ and without the condition that he had to sell everything he had...to become a disciple like the disciples of Jesus it is a different situation...but today still it can be done if someone has the right people to run his business or other family members can take care of it....

And some times Jesus can forbid you to do that if you have family obligations to look after...and you do it on your own without him calling you... 

So Jesus said that it is difficult for a rich man to be saved...knowing the hardship that lay ahead of his disciples...and knowing that the rich people are spoiled and spoon fed and not like tested fishermen in diverse situations brave hearted.

His disciples said they left everything and followed him and they count what they left not just business but wives and families...

Thank you for the way you said it I had never heard that before and about the cultural use of this kind of a wise crack...or cultural idiom.

[Roymond]

53 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

When Jesus said that his disciples understood and relate to it for this was something that had a meaning just like an idiom...

It had nothing to do with a camel trying to go through the opening in the wall of the city that man could go but the camel could not because the opening was enough for a man to go through only...

That could also be translated in this way because the man will refused to leave his camel and he will not go through the opening of the wall and in this way he may have to stay of the city walls at night and suffer damage by some wild beast or thieves. 

I side with this take because the man he loved his camel and he did not want to leave his camel alone outside the safety of the city walls.  He would have to wait for the gates to open in the morning...

One of the reasons for referring this take is because Jesus said that after he asked the rich young man to leave everything he had and follow him...and the young rich  man he could not do that and he walked away....

I do not want to comment on this man decision because we do not know the follow up if he decided to do that at some time later on.

And it really it did matter to something...because later when the Gospel was preached he should be invited to believe in Jesus Christ and without the condition that he had to sell everything he had...to become a disciple like the disciples of Jesus it is a different situation...but today still it can be done if someone has the right people to run his business or other family members can take care of it....

And some times Jesus can forbid you to do that if you have family obligations to look after...and you do it on your own without him calling you... 

So Jesus said that it is difficult for a rich man to be saved...knowing the hardship that lay ahead of his disciples...and knowing that the rich people are spoiled and spoon fed and not like tested fishermen in diverse situations brave hearted.

His disciples said they left everything and followed him and they count what they left not just business but wives and families...

Thank you for the way you said it I had never heard that before and about the cultural use of this kind of a wise crack...or cultural idiom.

We miss immense numbers of things in the Gospels because we don't bother digging into Jewish culture of the time.  Some of the most interesting insights I've gained along the way came from rabbis rolling their eyes at Christian "explanations" that were like dragging a book through the eye of a needle.  One was that when Jesus said of Himself "One greater than the Temple is here" He was plainly claiming to be God, because the only entity greater than a temple is the deity whose house it is.  I'd read that in English, Greek, Latin, German, and Spanish and never caught that, but to a rabbi it was as obvious as a millstone for a doorstop.

(And I'm probably misusing the idioms)

[Your closest friendnt]

53 minutes ago, Roymond said:

We miss immense numbers of things in the Gospels because we don't bother digging into Jewish culture of the time.  Some of the most interesting insights I've gained along the way came from rabbis rolling their eyes at Christian "explanations" that were like dragging a book through the eye of a needle.  One was that when Jesus said of Himself "One greater than the Temple is here" He was plainly claiming to be God, because the only entity greater than a temple is the deity whose house it is.  I'd read that in English, Greek, Latin, German, and Spanish and never caught that, but to a rabbi it was as obvious as a millstone for a doorstop.

(And I'm probably misusing the idioms)

I live close to a large Jewish community and some times when I was younger I visited some of the Synagogues as a visitor and I was surprised about their hospitality to a stranger even if you let them know that you are from a Christian family....extremely educated and friendly...

One Rabbi asked me "do you believe that the donkeys speak?" I said that what we read in the bible that the donkey spoke...to the prophet....

He said to me that is what the prophet devise to day to the one who was threatening him or who could do him harm if he would not go along with what the king was planning to asked him to do and or to say.

So he told him that he has been warn by this warrior Angel...that he has been sent to punish him he wanted the King to feel scare from the Angel  because he could not tell what the prophet was telling him it was truth..and if I please the Angel he might protect me from you and who knows if he won't go after you...but if I please you can you protect me from the Angel?

And why you are giving me all those gifts when the Angel will kill me and I won't live to enjoy them.

On the other hand the prophet may have heard the voice of the Angel talking on behalf of the donkey kind of what the donkey was complaining and because he could not see the Angel who standing in the path of the donkey he thought that the donkey talked to him...till the time the Angel let him see him....

 

Edited December 15, 2022 by Your closest friendnt

[Dennis1209]

8 hours ago, Roymond said:

Are you aware that the article you linked says there was and is no such gate?  It's just tourist-bait to make tourists think they've seen something special.

Something "going through the eye of a needle" was a rabbinic trope; going by memory there was "a cable through the eye of a needle", used to describe arguing a point with a weak argument; "a book through the eye of a needle", an obvious take-off of the cable image, referring to claims to understand someone's writings and meaning the claimant doesn't have a clue; and a famous "elephant through the eye of a needle" referring to how hard it was to get a certain rabbi to stop talking and let someone else speak.  So Jesus' audiences were familiar with the "eye of the needle" illustration, and there's good reason to think that He's making a dual word-play, since the word for "cable" and "camel" sound almost identical and the idea of an animal going through the eye of a needle involved an elephant, so it could be a side comment on the obtuseness of some of the scribes and others always hanging around the edges of His audience trying to catch Him in something.

I do now, thanks. I was reading several and I guess I pasted the wrong one. There is disagreement on whether the gate existed or not. The general consensus is, the gate did not exist in Jesus's time. No archeological evidence since most the wall was destroyed 70 A.D. It could very well be a myth, I stand corrected in my assumption. 

[Roymond]

5 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

I do now, thanks. I was reading several and I guess I pasted the wrong one. There is disagreement on whether the gate existed or not. The general consensus is, the gate did not exist in Jesus's time. No archeological evidence since most the wall was destroyed 70 A.D. It could very well be a myth, I stand corrected in my assumption. 

I'll have to try to find an article I read a couple of months ago.  It mentioned one possible source for the gate idea:  apparently one of the Crusader castles at or near Jerusalem had a secret exit barely large enough for a knight in armor to squeeze through and it was jokingly called "the Eye of the Needle" because someone carrying treasure wouldn't have been able to squeeze through.  That may be just another myth, but if true would definitely account for the rather late appearance of the gate idea as supposedly explaining Jesus' statement.  I kind of like it, myself; the mental image of some knight trying to sneak in after scoring some treasure off some Muslims and not being able to enter with it strikes me as amusing -- and definitely something knights might have turned into a joke.

edit:  I didn't find that article, but I perused the Wikipedia article and found it does a credibly good job.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_of_a_needle

Edited December 15, 2022 by Roymond
added reference

[Bluedragon]

On 12/13/2022 at 11:20 AM, missmuffet said:

Yes, our soul goes immediately to heaven. 

Exactly .....

The Luke parable described what was happening based on the Jewish faith. Then Luke describes what happened when Jesus died and one lone criinal crucified with him experienced. 

Jesus did not go to Hades .....Jesus went to Abraham's Bossom where the believers and followers of God that were faithful went to reside in waiting. Jesus was there to free the prisoners .....they all went to heaven immediately. The Rich Man was in Hades ....Jesus never set foot in Hades.....why would he? That is like praying for the unbeliever that died ......he's an unbeliever, he can't hear the prayers  .....he sleeps separated from God and Jesus. 

I had finished a production .....I was the main charactor and singer ......a woman approached as we were meeting with people from the audience. She carried two pictures of two crosses. One represented her husband, killed in a head on collision by a woman under the influence. The woman knew her husband was a Christian...The other photo was that of the woman's cross that crossed the center line and killed them both. The widow was worried about the woman's salvation. "The woman's releatives do not know if she was saved." I responded....."All the prayers in the world cannot save her now. I would continue to pray for your husband and convince myself that he hears your prayers  ..... If she is there with him Glory to God .....If not, we can't do anything about that now." I met her months later .....she was doing much better.....

On death two angels escort the spirit to heaven ......at the second coming...our new bodies will be combined with our souls ...

[Your closest friendnt]

10 hours ago, Bluedragon said:

Exactly .....

The Luke parable described what was happening based on the Jewish faith. Then Luke describes what happened when Jesus died and one lone criinal crucified with him experienced. 

Jesus did not go to Hades .....Jesus went to Abraham's Bossom where the believers and followers of God that were faithful went to reside in waiting. Jesus was there to free the prisoners .....they all went to heaven immediately. The Rich Man was in Hades ....Jesus never set foot in Hades.....why would he? That is like praying for the unbeliever that died ......he's an unbeliever, he can't hear the prayers  .....he sleeps separated from God and Jesus. 

I had finished a production .....I was the main charactor and singer ......a woman approached as we were meeting with people from the audience. She carried two pictures of two crosses. One represented her husband, killed in a head on collision by a woman under the influence. The woman knew her husband was a Christian...The other photo was that of the woman's cross that crossed the center line and killed them both. The widow was worried about the woman's salvation. "The woman's releatives do not know if she was saved." I responded....."All the prayers in the world cannot save her now. I would continue to pray for your husband and convince myself that he hears your prayers  ..... If she is there with him Glory to God .....If not, we can't do anything about that now." I met her months later .....she was doing much better.....

On death two angels escort the spirit to heaven ......at the second coming...our new bodies will be combined with our souls ...

Jesus said something that we should take notice...he said something about Abraham in John 8:56-58 

. ⁵⁶ Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”

⁵⁷ “You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”

⁵⁸ “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” 

        *************

Mathew 22:32 
Berean Literal Bible
I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob?' He is not the God of the dead, but of the living."

King James Bible
22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

>>>From the above scripture Mathew 22:32 Jesus is telling the Jews what God told Moses when Moses asked him what I shall say who sent me..

And God did not say that I was the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and Jacob...but HE SAID " I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM AND ISSAC AND JACOB...

after their death HE STILL IS THE GOD OF ABRAHAM AND ISSAC AND JACOB.  

and they know it...they are conscious about that...

And if someone asks and how do they know it? 

They know it in the same way or in a similar way that the people of the world they know that there Gods are not their Gods after their death because another God is ruling over them and their Gods are not contesting with him...because they were only their earthly Gods...unless they were worshiping the God of the dead while they lived...

This God of the dead of the world as we read in Mathew 22:32 which repeats what God said to Moses has nothing to do with them because their God while they lived is still their God after their death...

Why God only mentions Abraham and only Issac and only Jacob and he does not mentions the other children of Abraham and the other Son of Jacob...

Because they were excluded from the blessings of Abraham...which the Lord repeated to Isaac and He also repeated to Jacob and to Jacob He said that he includes in the blessings of Abraham all his children and all his household...

This is why he made himself known as the God of the Israelites and he said to Pharaoh that he wants no other that Israel is his Son...look at this Pharaoh wanted to be his Son and have his blessings. After he shaw how he was blessing the Israelites...

Abraham and his chosen  children Isaac, Jacob and all the household of Jacob were gathered to Abraham at the time of their death and they were there waiting for their Lord God to come to them and to fulfilled his promise so they can be together with him and he can be together with them because he was still their God after they had died and they knew that he could not be together with them as he was in a Covenant with them, in the Covenant of Sinai...and he had to be on earth...and Judge their Nation and the Nations around them who wanted to do no good to his people...and for other reasons...

Edited December 16, 2022 by Your closest friendnt

[Bluedragon]

On 12/14/2022 at 1:17 AM, JohnD said:

To date, Jesus is the only permanently resurrected human being. Some risings from the dead occurred when the veil was rend in two, but no mention of the permanency is made.

Revelation 20:4 speaks of the souls (disembodied spirits) of those killed for Christ in heaven...

Revelation 20:5–6 (KJV)
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The rest of the dead are all else who die (other than Jesus) ← who is the Firstborn from the dead (Colossians 1:18) 3 days after his crucifixion. This is the first resurrection! Hallelujah!

Glory to God in the highest! Then verse 6 describes what we now know is the Church Age (the time of the first resurrection). On such the second death has no power (1 Corinthians 15:55-57).

1 Thessalonians 4:13–18 (KJV)
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

The resurrection / reuniting with our bodies will take place at this time (not before). The dead in Christ will rise first then those who are alive on earth at the time who believe will be changed...

1 Corinthians 15:51–55 (KJV)
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Revelation 20:11–15 (KJV)
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. ← remember Revelation 20:5-6 the second death has no power over the believers in Jesus
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21 (KJV)
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb’s wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

Revelation 22 (KJV)
1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

Need to read further .....The difference between the ressurected body verus the soul is exactly what is missing from this endles diatribe ....Jesus freed the captives in Abrham's Bossum ......it is populated no more. Not one verse quoted pertains to the soul of the believer at death ....not one .....