The Efficacy of Water Baptism

[Cntrysner]

12 hours ago, Mr. M said:

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure thereunto even baptism doth also now save us; not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: (saved by faith)

The only way to have a good conscience toward God is to walk in obedience,

by which the Holy Spirit has no reason to convict us.

Acts 24:16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience

void to offence toward God, and toward men.

Water baptism is an act of obedience.

There is no inherent efficacy of water without the command of the Lord.

Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved;

but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Before John the Baptist, Jews under the law of Moses were practicing ritual immersion in the form of entering into a mikveh for purification from sin before entering the temple.

John’s baptism in the river Jordon for sin remission was nothing new and it meet all requirements under the law (Mark 1:3-4). We know the death of Christ freed us from the law if we believe.

Mar 1:6  And John was clothed with camel's hair, and with a girdle of a skin about his loins; and he did eat locusts and wild honey; 
Mar 1:7  And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose. 
Mar 1:8  I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost. 

When Jesus speaks of baptism in Mar 16:16 it is baptism by the Spirit which He will perform as John said He would do. All we have to do is believe in Christ.

Mar 16:16  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 
Mar 16:19  So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

Christ ascended and the Father sent His Spirit so that we might receive eternal life through Him. The Lord is that Spirit and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty (2 Co 3:17) from the law, ordinances such as water baptism, and man’s obedience in works of righteousness.

The answer of a good conscience toward God (1 Peter 3:21) is to believe in the resurrection of the ascended Christ and His Spirit in us will do the rest.
 

[Mr. M]

3 hours ago, Cntrysner said:

Before John the Baptist, Jews under the law of Moses were practicing ritual immersion in the form of entering into a mikveh for purification from sin before entering the temple.

John’s baptism in the river Jordon for sin remission was nothing new and it meet all requirements under the law (Mark 1:3-4). We know the death of Christ freed us from the law if we believe.

There is no requirement for ritual immersion in the law of Moses.

Levitical law required the priests to wash prior to ministering at the altar.

The idea that this provided purification, or remission from sin is unsupported.

Hebrews 9:22 And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood,

and without shedding of blood there is no remission.

John's baptism on the other hand was in fact new,

and brought him under scrutiny from the Pharisees

to answer by what authority he baptized.

John 1:

19 Now this is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent priests

and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, “Who are you?”

20 He confessed, and did not deny, but confessed,

“I am not the Christ.”

21 And they asked him, “What then? Are you Elijah?”

He said, “I am not.”

“Are you the Prophet?”

And he answered, “No.”

22 Then they said to him, “Who are you, that we may give an answer

to those who sent us? What do you say about yourself?”

23 He said: “I am ‘The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
“Make straight the way of the Lord,” ’as the prophet Isaiah said.”

24 Now those who were sent were from the Pharisees. 

25 And they asked him, saying, “Why then do you baptize

if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?”

You claim that "Baptism in water would be a righteous work

and we know it's not by works of righteousness."

I don't know where you get that from, but it is not scripture.

So let me show you what was going on at Bethabara:

Matthew 3:

4 Now John himself was clothed in camel’s hair, with a leather belt

around his waist; and his food was locusts and wild honey. 

5 Then Jerusalem, all Judea, and all the region around the Jordan went out to him 

6 and were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins.

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism,

he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 

8 Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance:

The idea that confessing sin is an act of righteousness is an oxymoron.

It is an act of contrition, and when done as an act of repentance, is an

acceptable sacrifice to the Lord.

Psalm 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit,
A broken and a contrite heart—
These, O God, You will not despise.

Any action taken in accordance with the word of God is effectual,

be it immersing in water, or abstaining from eating "for conscience sake"

2 Kings 5:

9 Then Naaman went with his horses and chariot,

and he stood at the door of Elisha’s house. 

10 And Elisha sent a messenger to him, saying,

“Go and wash in the Jordan seven times, and your flesh

shall be restored to you, and you shall be clean.” 

11 But Naaman became furious, and went away and said,

“Indeed, I said to myself, ‘He will surely come out to me,

 and stand and call on the name of the Lord his God,

and wave his hand over the place, and heal the leprosy.’ 

12 Are not the]Abanah and the Pharpar, the rivers of Damascus,

better than all the waters of Israel? Could I not wash in them and be clean?

So he turned and went away in a rage. 

13 And his servants came near and spoke to him, and said, “My father, 

if the prophet had told you to do something great, would you not have done it? 

How much more then, when he says to you, ‘Wash, and be clean’?” 

14 So he went down and dipped seven times in the Jordan,

according to the saying of the man of God; and his flesh was restored

like the flesh of a little child, and he was clean.

Was there magical power in the waters of the Jordan,

or was obedience to the Word of God effectual?

As to your lecture on apostolic doctrine, I will not respond to you

or your opinions, they are off-topic as well as they are flawed.

I will ask you about these statements:

"Christ Jesus by the Spirit baptizes us into his body

superseding the need for water baptism." (scriptures??)

Why did Phillip water baptize the Ethiopian Eunuch?

Why did Peter baptize the household of Cornelius,

even after they had received the Spirit?

"The answer of a good conscience toward God (1 Peter 3:21) is to

believe in the resurrection of the ascended Christ and

His Spirit in us will do the rest."???

Not even close to apostolic doctrine, but I am sure there

are plenty of people who would jump on that bandwagon.

 

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, @Mr. M

You're not entirely wrong, but you have some missing pieces of the puzzle.

@Cntrysner was not wrong when he said,

"Before John the Baptist, Jews under the law of Moses were practicing ritual immersion in the form of entering into a mikveh for purification from sin before entering the temple.

"John’s baptism in the river Jordon for sin remission was nothing new and it meet all requirements under the law (Mark 1:3-4). We know the death of Christ freed us from the law if we believe."

Baptism was NOT started by Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") nor by Yochanan the Immerser ("John the Baptizer"). 

So, when you said,

"There is no requirement for ritual immersion in the law of Moses. 
Levitical law required the priests to wash prior to ministering at the altar.
The idea that this provided purification, or remission from sin is unsupported."

That's not quite true. The cleansing was symbolic, but it was the Ruwach haQodesh Elohiym (the Holy Spirit of God) who does the REAL cleansing! You KNOW DEEP DOWN this to be true, but it was also true in the TANAKH, what you call the "Old Testament!"

 

Exodus 19:1-6 (KJV)

1 In the third month, when the children of Israel were gone forth out of the land of Egypt, the same day came they into the wilderness of Sinai. 2 For they were departed from Rephidim, and were come to the desert of Sinai, and had pitched in the wilderness; and there Israel camped before the mount. 3 And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying,

"Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel; 

4 "'Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself. 5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: 6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation.'

"These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel."

 

So, when you said, "Levitical law required the priests to wash prior to ministering at the altar.

The idea that this provided purification, or remission from sin is unsupported," you're a bit confused.

The "purification" is not the same thing as the "remission from sin." The "purification" was INDEED performed but not for the "remission from sin!" The "purification" was to make a person "holy"; but the "remission from sin" was what some call "personal salvation" and what the Scriptures call "justification by God." Holiness is NOT THE SAME THING as righteousness. One can be "holy" - set apart for the LORD'S service - without being a "righteous" person.

 

Exodus 30:17-21 (KJV)

17 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 

18 "Thou shalt also make a laver of brass, and his foot also of brass, to wash withal: and thou shalt put it between the tabernacle of the congregation and the altar, and thou shalt put water therein. 19 For Aaron and his sons shall wash their hands and their feet thereat: 20 When they go into the tabernacle of the congregation, they shall wash with water, that they die not; or when they come near to the altar to minister, to burn offering made by fire unto the LORD: 21 So they shall wash their hands and their feet, that they die not: and it shall be a statute for ever to them, even to him and to his seed throughout their generations."

 

Brass is the metal that represents judgment. When the children of Israel (Ya`aqoV or "Jacob") will be under the NEW Covenant, then the following will be fulfilled:

 

Jeremiah 30:1-31: (KJV)

1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, 2

"Thus speaketh the LORD God of Israel, saying,

"'Write thee all the words that I have spoken unto thee in a book. 3 For, lo, the days come,' saith the LORD, 'that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.'"

4 And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah. 5 For thus saith the LORD;

"We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. 6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?

7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. 8 For it shall come to pass in that day," saith the LORD of hosts, "that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: 9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.

10 "Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob," saith the LORD; "neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.

11 "For I am with thee," saith the LORD, "to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished."

12 For thus saith the LORD,

"Thy bruise is incurable, and thy wound is grievous. 13 There is none to plead thy cause, that thou mayest be bound up: thou hast no healing medicines. 14 All thy lovers have forgotten thee; they seek thee not; for I have wounded thee with the wound of an enemy, with the chastisement of a cruel one, for the multitude of thine iniquity; because thy sins were increased. 15 Why criest thou for thine affliction? thy sorrow is incurable for the multitude of thine iniquity: because thy sins were increased, I have done these things unto thee.

16 "Therefore all they that devour thee shall be devoured; and all thine adversaries, every one of them, shall go into captivity; and they that spoil thee shall be a spoil, and all that prey upon thee will I give for a prey. 17 For I will restore health unto thee, and I will heal thee of thy wounds," saith the LORD; "because they called thee an Outcast, saying, 'This is Zion, whom no man seeketh after.'"

18 Thus saith the LORD;

"Behold, I will bring again the captivity of Jacob's tents, and have mercy on his dwellingplaces; and the city shall be builded upon her own heap, and the palace shall remain after the manner thereof. 19 And out of them shall proceed thanksgiving and the voice of them that make merry: and I will multiply them, and they shall not be few; I will also glorify them, and they shall not be small. 20 Their children also shall be as aforetime, and their congregation shall be established before me, and I will punish all that oppress them. 21 And their nobles shall be of themselves, and their governor shall proceed from the midst of them; and I will cause him to draw near, and he shall approach unto me: for who is this that engaged his heart to approach unto me?" saith the LORD.

22 "And ye shall be my people, and I will be your God."

23 Behold, the whirlwind of the LORD goeth forth with fury, a continuing whirlwind: it shall fall with pain upon the head of the wicked. 24The fierce anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have done it, and until he have performed the intents of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it.

1 "At the same time," saith the LORD, "will I be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be my people."

2 Thus saith the LORD,

"The people which were left of the sword found grace in the wilderness; even Israel, when I went to cause him to rest."

3 The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, 

"Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee. 4 Again I will build thee, and thou shalt be built, O virgin of Israel: thou shalt again be adorned with thy tabrets, and shalt go forth in the dances of them that make merry. 5 Thou shalt yet plant vines upon the mountains of Samaria: the planters shall plant, and shall eat them as common things. 6 For there shall be a day, that the watchmen upon the mount Ephraim shall cry, 'Arise ye, and let us go up to Zion unto the LORD our God.'"

7 For thus saith the LORD;

"Sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout among the chief of the nations: publish ye, praise ye, and say,

"'O LORD, save thy people, the remnant of Israel.'

8 "Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither. 9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn."

10 Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say,

"He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock. 11 For the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and ransomed him from the hand of him that was stronger than he. 12 Therefore they shall come and sing in the height of Zion, and shall flow together to the goodness of the LORD, for wheat, and for wine, and for oil, and for the young of the flock and of the herd: and their soul shall be as a watered garden; and they shall not sorrow any more at all."

13 "Then shall the virgin rejoice in the dance, both young men and old together: for I will turn their mourning into joy, and will comfort them, and make them rejoice from their sorrow. 14 And I will satiate the soul of the priests with fatness, and my people shall be satisfied with my goodness," saith the LORD.

15 Thus saith the LORD;

"A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not."

16 Thus saith the LORD;

"Refrain thy voice from weeping, and thine eyes from tears: for thy work shall be rewarded," saith the LORD; "and they shall come again from the land of the enemy. 17 And there is hope in thine end," saith the LORD, "that thy children shall come again to their own border. 18 I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus;

"'Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the LORD my God. 19 Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.'

20 "Is Ephraim my dear son? is he a pleasant child? for since I spake against him, I do earnestly remember him still: therefore my bowels are troubled for him; I will surely have mercy upon him," saith the LORD.

21 Set thee up waymarks, make thee high heaps: set thine heart toward the highway, even the way which thou wentest: turn again, O virgin of Israel, turn again to these thy cities. 22 How long wilt thou go about, O thou backsliding daughter? for the LORD hath created a new thing in the earth, A woman shall compass a man. 23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel;

"As yet they shall use this speech in the land of Judah and in the cities thereof, when I shall bring again their captivity; The LORD bless thee, O habitation of justice, and mountain of holiness. 24 And there shall dwell in Judah itself, and in all the cities thereof together, husbandmen, and they that go forth with flocks. 25 For I have satiated the weary soul, and I have replenished every sorrowful soul."

26 Upon this I awaked, and beheld; and my sleep was sweet unto me.

27 "Behold, the days come," saith the LORD, "that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast. 28 And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant," saith the LORD.

29 "In those days they shall say no more, 'The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.' 30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge."

31 "Behold, the days come," saith the LORD, "that I will make A NEW COVENANT with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them," saith the LORD: 33 "But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days," saith the LORD, "I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD': for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them," saith the LORD: "for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:

36 "If those ordinances depart from before me," saith the LORD, "then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever."

37 Thus saith the LORD;

"If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done," saith the LORD.

38 "Behold, the days come," saith the LORD, "that the city shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner. 39And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath. 40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever."

 

Revelation 5:1-10 (KJV)

1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. 2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice,

"Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?"

3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. 4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

5 And one of the elders saith unto me,

"Weep not: behold (LOOK!), the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof!"

6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. 7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. 8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 9 And they sung a new song, saying,

"Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."

Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") will not only be the King of kings on His Father's behalf, but He is given ALL JUDGMENT (John 5:19-23), and He is the Resurrection and the Life (John 11:25-26)! Basically, He is the MASTER OF LIFE AND DEATH, for it is also said that "out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations!" (Revelation 19:15), and...

Revelation 14:17-20 (KJV)

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying,

"Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe."

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Which is a fulfillment of Isaiah 63:1-6:

Isaiah 63:1-6 (KJV)

1 "Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength?"

"I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save."

2 "Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?"

3 "I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment. 4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come. 5 And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me. 6 And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth."

[Mr. M]

52 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

So, when you said, "Levitical law required the priests to wash prior to ministering at the altar.

The idea that this provided purification, or remission from sin is unsupported," you're a bit confused.

The "purification" is not the same thing as the "remission from sin." The "purification" was INDEED performed but not for the "remission from sin!" The "purification" was to make a person "holy"; but the "remission from sin" was what some call "personal salvation" and what the Scriptures call "justification by God." Holiness is NOT THE SAME THING as righteousness. One can be "holy" - set apart for the LORD'S service - without being a "righteous" person.

The statement and confusion were his.

I was rejecting the notion that there could be

remission from sin by ritual purification.

You are simply careless.

 

54 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Exodus 19:1-6 (KJV)

1 In the third month, when the children of Israel were gone forth out of the land of Egypt, the same day came they into the wilderness of Sinai. 2 For they were departed from Rephidim, and were come to the desert of Sinai, and had pitched in the wilderness; and there Israel camped before the mount. 3 And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying,

"Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel; 

4 "'Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself. 5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: 6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation.'

"These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel."

There was no Levitical law at this time. Your post is a bit long winded, so I will drop it here, since I don't feel like correcting someone who is correcting me erroneously. John's baptism was unique and ordained in that it did, in fact, result in remission of sin.

Luke 1:

76 “And you, child, will be called the prophet of the Highest;
For you will go before the face of the Lord to prepare His ways,
77 To give knowledge of salvation to His people
By the remission of their sins,

Israel, of course, was baptized corporately into Moses:

1 Corinthians 10:

1 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 

2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 

3 all ate the same spiritual food, 

4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 

5 But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.

6 Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted.

The reality that John's baptism was unique is confirmed by the Lord here:

Matthew 21:

23 Now when He came into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people confronted Him as He was teaching, and said, “By what authority are You doing these things? And who gave You this authority?”

24 But Jesus answered and said to them, “I also will ask you one thing, which if you tell Me, I likewise will tell you by what authority I do these things: 

25 The baptism of John—where was it from? From heaven or from men?”

And they reasoned among themselves, saying, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ He will say to us, ‘Why then did you not believe him?’ 

26 But if we say, ‘From men,’ we fear the multitude, for all count John as a prophet.” 

27 So they answered Jesus and said, “We do not know.”

And He said to them, “Neither will I tell you by what authority I do these things.

[Mr. M]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Exodus 30:17-21 (KJV)

17 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 

18 "Thou shalt also make a laver of brass, and his foot also of brass, to wash withal: and thou shalt put it between the tabernacle of the congregation and the altar, and thou shalt put water therein. 19 For Aaron and his sons shall wash their hands and their feet thereat: 20 When they go into the tabernacle of the congregation, they shall wash with water, that they die not; or when they come near to the altar to minister, to burn offering made by fire unto the LORD: 21 So they shall wash their hands and their feet, that they die not: and it shall be a statute for ever to them, even to him and to his seed throughout their generations."

Like I already said, this pertained to the priests,

not people entering the Temple in general.

Again, the confusion is not mine.

[Retrobyter]

9 hours ago, Mr. M said:

Like I already said, this pertained to the priests,

not people entering the Temple in general.

Again, the confusion is not mine.

Shalom, Mr. M.

I'll start here, seeing this to be the first error. This was indeed a ritual for the priests; however, they were ALL to be a "kingdom of priests" to the Gentiles! And, this purification by water ritual was performed by more than just the priests. Even Paul and his companions exercised this practice:

Acts 21:17-26 (KJV)

17 And when we were come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. 18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present. 19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry. 20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him,

"Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: 21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs. 22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come. 23 Do therefore this that we say to thee:

"We have four men which have a vow on them; 24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. 25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication."

26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.

While his companions were purified having shaven their heads, Paul was also purified among them. Then the five of them offered their sacrifices unto God in the Temple. It was intended to be a demonstration of Paul's adherence to the Law and the rituals associated with it. It was meant to PROVE that Paul did NOT "teach all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Mosheh, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs." He understood this strategy, himself being a Paruwsh ("a Pharasee"), which means "a Separatist."

 

[Mr. M]

7 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Mr. M.

I'll start here, seeing this to be the first error. This was indeed a ritual for the priests; however, they were ALL to be a "kingdom of priests" to the Gentiles! And, this purification by water ritual was performed by more than just the priests. Even Paul and his companions exercised this practice:

Acts 21:17-26 (KJV)

17 And when we were come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. 18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present. 19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry. 20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him,

"Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: 21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs. 22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come. 23 Do therefore this that we say to thee:

"We have four men which have a vow on them; 24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. 25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication."

26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.

While his companions were purified having shaven their heads, Paul was also purified among them. Then the five of them offered their sacrifices unto God in the Temple. It was intended to be a demonstration of Paul's adherence to the Law and the rituals associated with it. It was meant to PROVE that Paul did NOT "teach all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Mosheh, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs." He understood this strategy, himself being a Paruwsh ("a Pharasee"), which means "a Separatist."

 

I am aware of this narrative, brother. They had made and were fulfilling a vow. If you want to elaborate, do so from the  Law of Moses for anyone who would desire to know, but it does not support in any way @Cntrysner's contention. Nor does it have anything to do with the efficacy of the water baptism of John, or the remission of sin. Choose the thread that you would like to make reference to, and this is off topic. As already proven not by me but Christ himself, the baptism of John was from heaven, was declared to be authoritative by Isaiah and Malachi, and the beginnings of the Gospel of Jesus Christ in Mark 1. I don't know how much more I should be willing to write to make this clear, but it is unlikely to be much.

[Retrobyter]

On 4/20/2024 at 10:13 PM, Mr. M said:

The statement and confusion were his.

I was rejecting the notion that there could be

remission from sin by ritual purification.

You are simply careless.

Shalom, Mr. M, and Happy Pesach (Passover)!

No, I am merely Jewish. You're right that the remission of sins is not accomplished by ritual purification, but in order to make a sacrifice, one must first be ritually purified.

On 4/20/2024 at 10:13 PM, Mr. M said:

There was no Levitical law at this time.

This is false. There certainly WAS Levitical law in Yeeshuwa`s day, or Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") couldn't have been proclaimed to have
"KEPT THE LAW IN ALL POINTS!"

On 4/20/2024 at 10:13 PM, Mr. M said:

Your post is a bit long winded, so I will drop it here, since I don't feel like correcting someone who is correcting me erroneously.

I'm sorry that my posts seem to be "a bit long winded," but to get the gist of what is going on in the passages I quote, sometimes one must read more than a simple verse or paragraph. One must go back and get the flow of thought from the context. Not everyone takes the time to read the Scriptures for enjoyment or for a better understanding, but it would be wise to do so.

If someone else quotes lots of Scripture to support his or her arguments, I read every one of the Scriptures posted and check them in their contexts. After all, they are more important than the conclusions one might draw from them. I might even check the original languages to be sure they have a proper understanding of those Scriptures. I use a combination of sources to help with that procedure: BlueLetterBible, BibleHub, Gesenius'  Hebrew Grammar, and William Hersey Davis' Beginner's Grammar of the Greek New Testament, among many others.

On 4/20/2024 at 10:13 PM, Mr. M said:

John's baptism was unique and ordained in that it did, in fact, result in remission of sin.

Luke 1:

76 “And you, child, will be called the prophet of the Highest;
For you will go before the face of the Lord to prepare His ways,
77 To give knowledge of salvation to His people
By the remission of their sins,

Actually, this is not quite right, either.  Here's the FULL quote of what Z'kharyahuw ("Zecharias") said:

Luke 1:67-79 (KJV)

67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

68 "Blessed [be] the LORD God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, 69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; 70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: 71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; 72 To perform the mercy [promised] to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; 73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham, 74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, 75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

76 "And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways; 77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins, 78 Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us, 79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and [in] the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace."

First, I would argue that Z'kharyahuw was ANOINTED by the Ruwach haQodesh Elohiym, the Holy Spirit of God, for this prophecy. Therefore, I have given him the red letters for which I have reserved for God's anointed ones.

Second, it is being "saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us" that is to what the word "salvation" (deliverance or rescue) refers. This was a rescue YET TO BE REALIZED! It COULD have been realized when the Master Yeeshuwa` legitimately offered them the Kingdom of God (over which David originally presided), but it was NOT yet in force. So, their sins first had to be remitted, and this could ONLY be done through sacrifice, NOT by a baptism which was just a physical washing meant to PICTURE what the Holy Spirit would do within each person.

However, as we now know by hindsight, the Messiah of God was REJECTED AND CRUCIFIED by the Jewish leaders - the elders of Yhudah - and by the priests - the Cohaniym of Aaron's line. The LORD God, as we know, turned this around to the benefit of the whole world by making the death of the Messiah "God's Sacrifice for sin," and this was the ULTIMATE Sacrifice that permanently met the Holy LORD God's requirements for sins. ("The wages [paycheck] of sin is death.")

Isaiah 53:1-12 (KJV)

1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is "the arm of the LORD" revealed? 2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 4 Surely he hath borne OUR griefs, and carried OUR sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for OUR transgressions, he was bruised for OUR iniquities: the chastisement of OUR peace was upon him; and with his stripes WE are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity OF US ALL. 7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. 9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him (the Messiah); he hath put him to grief: WHEN THOU SHALT MAKE HIS SOUL (the Messiah's "air-breathing body") AN OFFERING FOR SIN, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11 HE SHALL SEE OF THE TRAVAIL OF HIS SOUL (the Messiah's "air-breathing body"), AND SHALL BE SATISFIED: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant (the Messiah) JUSTIFY MANY; for he shall bear THEIR iniquities.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul (his "air-breathing body") unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. (All of this verse speaks to His Resurrection, since He had been "cut off out of the land of the living.")

On 4/20/2024 at 10:13 PM, Mr. M said:

Israel, of course, was baptized corporately into Moses:

1 Corinthians 10:

1 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 

2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 

3 all ate the same spiritual food, 

4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 

5 But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.

6 Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted.

Baptized, yes, but that does NOT mean that they were "justified by God," for as you quoted, "their bodies were scattered in the wilderness." Indeed, that whole generation DIED in the wilderness because of their constant grumbling, complaining, and disobedience to God's commands, all but Joshua (Yhowshuwa`) and Caleb (KaaleeV), the two spies who remained faithful to the LORD God's promise.

NONE of the adults who passed through the sea under the cloud, except for Joshua and Caleb, made it into the Promised Land.

On 4/20/2024 at 10:13 PM, Mr. M said:

The reality that John's baptism was unique is confirmed by the Lord here:

Matthew 21:

23 Now when He came into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people confronted Him as He was teaching, and said, “By what authority are You doing these things? And who gave You this authority?”

24 But Jesus answered and said to them, “I also will ask you one thing, which if you tell Me, I likewise will tell you by what authority I do these things: 

25 The baptism of John—where was it from? From heaven or from men?”

And they reasoned among themselves, saying, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ He will say to us, ‘Why then did you not believe him?’ 

26 But if we say, ‘From men,’ we fear the multitude, for all count John as a prophet.” 

27 So they answered Jesus and said, “We do not know.”

And He said to them, “Neither will I tell you by what authority I do these things.

Yes, Yochanan the Immerser ("John the Baptizer") was indeed a prophet of God. He was not 'Eliyahuw ("Elijah"), nor any of the other named prophets in the past; he was called "the Voice of one crying in the wilderness," although he came in the spirit of 'Eliyahuw, as 'Eliyshah had a double portion before him:

Isaiah 40:1-18 (KJV)

1 "Comfort ye, comfort ye my people," saith your God.

2 "Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD'S hand double for all her sins."

3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness,

"Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. 4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain: 5 And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it."

6 The voice said,

"Cry."

And he said,

"What shall I cry?"

"All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field: 7 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the LORD bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass. 8 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever. HERE IS YOUR GOD!"

9 O Zion, that bringest good tidings, get thee up into the high mountain; O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah,

"BEHOLD YOUR GOD!"

10 Behold, the Lord GOD (the Father) will come with strong hand, and "his Arm" (the Messiah) shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.
11 He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.
12 Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, and meted out heaven with the span, and comprehended the dust of the earth in a measure, and weighed the mountains in scales, and the hills in a balance?
13 Who hath directed the Spirit of the LORD, or being his counseller hath taught him?
14 With whom took he counsel, and who instructed him, and taught him in the path of judgment, and taught him knowledge, and shewed to him the way of understanding?
15 Behold, the nations are as a drop of a bucket, and are counted as the small dust of the balance: behold, he taketh up the isles as a very little thing.
16 And Lebanon is not sufficient to burn, nor the beasts thereof sufficient for a burnt offering.
17 All nations before him are as nothing; and they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity.
18 To whom then will ye liken God? or what likeness will ye compare unto him?

 

Luke 1:5-17 (KJV)

5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias (K'kharyahuw), of the course of Abia ('AViyah): and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron ('Aharown), and her name was Elisabeth ('ElishaVet). 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. 7 And they had no child, because that Elisabeth was barren, and they both were now well stricken in years.

8 And it came to pass, that while he executed the priest's office before God in the order of his course, 9 According to the custom of the priest's office, his lot was to burn incense when he went into the temple of the Lord. 10 And the whole multitude of the people were praying without (outside) at the time of incense. 11 And there appeared unto him an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense. 12 And when Zacharias saw him, he was troubled, and fear fell upon him. 13 But the angel said unto him,

"Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John. 14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth. 15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb. 16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God. 17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."

 

Yochanan was the HERALD for the Messiah of God. He was to go before the Messiah into every town and village of Israel in which the Messiah would arrive and prepare the people for His arrival. However, His Herald was put in prison by Herod Antipas. So, He had to do the heralding Himself, and later, His disciples heralded before Him into the towns and villages He would visit. Indeed, the Greek word often translated as "preach" meant "to herald (as a town cryer)!"

[Mr. M]

35 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

No, I am merely Jewish. You're right that the remission of sins is not accomplished by ritual purification, but in order to make a sacrifice, one must first be ritually purified.

Again, ritual purification in the Law of Moses is not the baptism of John's

remission of...oh, I am right.

37 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

This is false. There certainly WAS Levitical law in Yeeshuwa`s day, or Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") couldn't have been proclaimed to have
"KEPT THE LAW IN ALL POINTS!"

I posted this in response to you quoting Ex 19 "holy nation of priests", which was for all Israel. Levitical Law came into existence after the golden calf incident and Levi was set aside. More carelessness. Obviously there was Temple Law in the time of Yeshua. Much of it was tradition of the elders. 

Here is what I know as a "Gentile":

Amos 5:

25 Have ye offered unto me sacrifices and offerings

in the wilderness forty years, O house of Israel?

26 But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch

and Chiun your images, the star of your god,

which ye made to yourselves.

43 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

First, I would argue that Z'kharyahuw was ANOINTED by the Ruwach haQodesh Elohiym, the Holy Spirit of God, for this prophecy. Therefore, I have given him the red letters for which I have reserved for God's anointed ones.

No argument here.

I claim the same preference to any prophet

or Psalmist who spoke of Messiah

1 Peter 1:

10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully,

who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 

11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them

was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ

and the glories that would follow. 

12 To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering

the things which now have been reported to you through those who have

preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven

—things which angels desire to look into.

47 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

76 "And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways; 77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins, 78 Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us, 79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and [in] the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace."

This portion of the prophecy pertained to John being the one

who would go before the Lord to prepare the hearts of the people.

Luke 7:

26 But what did you go out to see? A prophet?

Yes, I say to you, and more than a prophet. 

27 This is he of whom it is written:

‘Behold, I send My messenger before Your face,
Who will prepare Your way before You.’

28 For I say to you, among those born of women

there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist;

but he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.”

29 And when all the people heard Him, even the tax collectors

justified God, having been baptized with the baptism of John. 

30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God

for themselves, not having been baptized by him.

[Mr. M]

57 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

but in order to make a sacrifice, one must first be ritually purified.

But this was not with remission of sin.

John 15:3 You are already clean

because of the word which I have spoken to you.

One last time, @Cntrysner made the statement

that the baptism of John was of the Law. It was not.

It was prophetic to the coming of Messiah.