The Three Main Views of Hell

[Marathoner]

6 hours ago, Amigo42 said:

This is indeed an interesting topic, and one that I think has been sadly distorted by dogma and church leaders through the years.  To start this topic, one must understand the origin of the idea of hell, which is remarkably absent from the ancient Hebrew and Old Testament thought.

The idea of hell especially a place of eternal torment is only viewed as doctrinal after the Hellenization of the Jews.  Why is this important?  Well, the Greek myths of hades (a cruel place of eternal torment) was mixed with Jewish religious thought and further expanded in Christian thought.  Now some might say well, didn't Jesus talk about hell.  

Yes, but one must also remember that Jesus spoke in many parables and also attempted to speak in references and ways that people could understand at that time.  Most Jews at that time were illiterate and unschooled.  The only reference to the topic that made sense was the Valley of Gehenna, which was a trash heap outside of Jerusalem where refuse was constantly burning.  This was used as reference point, but should not be considered as literal.  

Now, with questions like this, everyone should use common sense that God gave all of us.  Does it really make sense for a God in particular a God of love to punish his own creation endlessly for trillions of years for a few years of mistakes and sin?  How is that just or right.  No, it makes no sense, but hell fire baptist preachers would say otherwise.  I'm more interested in the truth, and according to our God-given common sense that makes no sense.  The punishment must fit the crime.  Even sinful humans are fairly good at making sure the punishment fits the crime, so even more so a God of infinite love and compassion would do so.

Taking some parts of the Bible too literally can be a major stumbling block for many people unfortunately as this is not what God intended.  Now, there is another view of life that some may not agree with.  It is akin to universalism.  It is that as opposed to saying that one will go heaven after receiving salvation that all souls are actually just "returning home."  Home is where all souls must go when they leave this planet.  There is no literal hell as religious dogma teaches, but there may be certain spiritual planes of existence where correction occur for souls whose human sides messed up badly in life.  However, even for these souls, they eventually go home to the Creator who brought into this world.  In other words, God's judgment for the human being who has a temporary existence is different from how he views the originally perfect soul that inhabited that body.  All souls are created perfect and sinless.  It only the human side that is sinful and the spirit or soul may not always be able to properly guide the human side away from darkness.  Once the human side dies, it is gone completely, but the souls retains the lessons learned from that human experience.

Again, this is just a theory, and no one should state that this is complete truth.  Only God knows the complete truth.

I'm in agreement with @Waggles. There's no profit in syncretic admixture based upon the misguided notion that in everything, there's truth. Not so.

Some are more familiar with pagan systems of belief than others, and my brother recognizes elements of Buddhism and Hinduism in what you wrote, as do I. Souls are not perfected by the process of life on this earth, nor perfected on other planes of existence after death as it were. 

I say that Almighty God is indeed merciful, and He has declared that mercy is the cause of righteous judgment --- mercy triumphs --- and as the passage from Revelation reads, those of the dead whose names are not written in the book of life shall be cast into the lake of fire.

In this, I'm in agreement with my brethren who believe in eternal torment. We differ regarding the disposition of the condemned who are cast into the fire --- I'm convinced this is eternal destruction, according to God who is merciful --- but it is the custom of philosophical pagans to proclaim that truth cannot be known by us. That's false.

The truth is a person, and He is Jesus Christ. We who belong to Him are known by Him, and He knows us. The Lord has revealed that it is given for man to die, and face judgment. We know that the resurrection of the dead is how man faces judgment. 

The Son of God is the Judge. 

[Waggles]

8 hours ago, Amigo42 said:

Does it really make sense for a God in particular a God of love to punish his own creation endlessly for trillions of years for a few years of mistakes and sin?

In an environment that is timeless and without reference to days and years both eternal life and eternal condemnation simply are. There is no tomorrow or next week.

Bodies in the lake of fire are not on fire as we see wood burn, for this is a spiritual torment, a spiritual death and a spiritual punishment.

The weeping and gnashing of teeth is not just being cast out from the glory of the kingdom of light, but the most horrifying knowledge that there is no parole, no comeback, no redemption, no hope.

Luke 16:22  The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, 
23  and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 
24  And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 
25  But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 
26  And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ 

Edited January 15, 2023 by Waggles

[Waggles]

8 hours ago, Amigo42 said:

There is no literal hell as religious dogma teaches, but there may be certain spiritual planes of existence where correction occur for souls whose human sides messed up badly in life.

Hebrews 9:27  And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgement,

"souls" in the Bible are quite a different notion than in non-Biblical religions.

souls do not exist outside of the body - souls do not continue to exist on some spiritual plane.

A soul is a living being either animal or human - that is living flesh and spirit - having consciousness, being self aware.

When a person dies their body is lifeless and will decay back to the elements, while the spirit of a human will return to God.

When it comes to resurrection and judgement God will raise the dead - what the exact details are as to their form and presence scripture does not give specific details. But every person will know who they are and what they have done.

Rev 20:11  Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 
12  And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 
13  And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 
14  Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 
15  And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. 

Edited January 15, 2023 by Waggles

[Amigo42]

17 hours ago, Marathoner said:

In this, I'm in agreement with my brethren who believe in eternal torment. We differ regarding the disposition of the condemned who are cast into the fire --- I'm convinced this is eternal destruction, according to God who is merciful --- but it is the custom of philosophical pagans to proclaim that truth cannot be known by us. That's false

Thank you for your thoughts, and I respect your viewpoints.  I will ask though does the God of love that Jesus described really sound like someone who'd punish ANY of his children even the worst ones with eternal torture? That sounds more like a Satanic and sadistic person who'd even think of that.  God is love, and it might surprise people that God might not actually judge like people think he might.  In fact, during the life review process it appears instead that he allows souls to judge themselves based on how well they did guiding their human self.

[Amigo42]

15 hours ago, Waggles said:

In an environment that is timeless and without reference to days and years both eternal life and eternal condemnation simply are. There is no tomorrow or next week.

Bodies in the lake of fire are not on fire as we see wood burn, for this is a spiritual torment, a spiritual death and a spiritual punishment.

The weeping and gnashing of teeth is not just being cast out from the glory of the kingdom of light, but the most horrifying knowledge that there is no parole, no comeback, no redemption, no hope.

Luke 16:22  The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, 
23  and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 
24  And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 
25  But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 
26  And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ 

What about people who live in the Amazon or other jungles and never heard of Jesus or seen the Bible but live more Christ-like than some churchgoers?

[Vine Abider]

12 minutes ago, Amigo42 said:

What about people who live in the Amazon or other jungles and never heard of Jesus or seen the Bible but live more Christ-like than some churchgoers?

Point of reference here regarding "Christ-like."  People can go all over the place with what this means, according to what their opinion of who Christ is, what He did or what they think His motives were.  (for instance, many Republicans think their actions are Christ-like . . . while many Democrats would disagree and think their actions are the more Christ-like  )

And your point seems to be that some unbelievers live more like Christ than actual regenerated Christians who have His life in them.  However, at the end of the day (so to speak), the thing that matters is this: Did they accept Christ in order for Him to come into them and indwell them?  (then it's up to them as to how much they cooperate with the new life that's been planted in them, and thereby do His works accordingly)

So I cannot tell (as the old song goes) how He will handle those who "never heard of Jesus or seen the Bible," but this I know, He will be completely righteous in His handling of them.

[Waggles]

4 hours ago, Amigo42 said:

What about people who live in the Amazon or other jungles and never heard of Jesus or seen the Bible but live more Christ-like than some churchgoers?

1John 2:1  My little children, these things I write you that ye may not sin. And if one sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 
2  and HE is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.

Rev 20:12  And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne; and booklets were opened: and another booklet was opened, which is that of life: and the dead were judged out of the things written in the booklets, according to their works. 
13  And the sea gave up the dead that were in it; and death and Hades gave up the dead in them: and they were judged each according to their works. 

[Waggles]

4 hours ago, Amigo42 said:

In fact, during the life review process it appears instead that he allows souls to judge themselves based on how well they did guiding their human self.

What evidence do you have that any of what you allege is true?

Malachi 4:1  "For look! The day is about to come, burning like an oven, and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble. The coming day will consume them," says YHWH of hosts. "It will not leave behind for them root or branch.

Psalm 21:8  Your hand will find all your enemies; your right hand will find those who hate you. 
9  You will make them like your fiery furnace at the time of your appearance. YHWH will swallow them in his wrath and fire will consume them. 
10  You will destroy their offspring from the earth, and their descendants from among the children of humankind.

[Waggles]

Hebrews 10:26  For if we keep on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 
27  but a certain fearful expectation of judgment and a fury of fire that is about to consume the adversaries. 
28  Anyone who rejected the law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 
29  How much worse punishment do you think the person will be considered worthy of who treats with disdain the Son of God and who considers ordinary the blood of the covenant by which he was made holy and who insults the Spirit of grace? 
30  For we know the one who said, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." 
31  It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God. 

[Vine Abider]

5 hours ago, Amigo42 said:

 In fact, during the life review process it appears instead that he allows souls to judge themselves based on how well they did guiding their human self.

45 minutes ago, Waggles said:

What evidence do you have that any of what you allege is true?

I'm wondering about that too!