If God created the souls of birthed babies, why they are under the bondage of sins ?

[Marathoner]

As an afterthought, I would like to elaborate on something further, @Roymond. You'll notice my reaction to your post; this indicates my overall agreement. I don't find any fault with what you wrote in response to me. I'm not scrutinizing every jot and tittle for error, brother. The spirit of what you presented is altogether agreeable. 

There! That illustrates the judgment of the righteous and perfect Judge regarding we who were born in bondage to sin. It's clear that I understand our bondage to sin which begins in the womb, and I've never disputed scriptural truth in this topic. Sin entered the world through one man: Adam. 

God looks upon us in our enslavement to wickedness and He is moved for our sake, just as He was merciful toward Adam and his wife Eve before He cast them out of the garden. The Lord is even merciful toward the dead who perish in their trespasses, resurrecting them to be judged according to their works. I hope the overarching point I've been striving to communicate is clear:

At all times, the Lord is fair and just. The fairness and mercy of God is unsurpassed in magnificence, permitting His rain to fall upon the heads of the just and wicked alike. Man is not this way, and the blind dogma of the religious bears witness to the truth that man, and not the Lord, is a harsh and merciless judge. 

I argue the case of mercy at all times, for our Lord Jesus Christ has been exceedingly merciful toward us all. Consider our bondage to sin... what is bondage? Enslavement. We were indeed born slaves to sin, but God has decreed that He shall judge the slaves of wickedness according to their own works, not condemning them on account of an estate we had no control over. 

The dead would not be judged according to their works if they were condemned for the sin of Adam! There would be no resurrection of the dead for judgment. I understand the sin of Adam as that curse we labor under in this world, which is bondage to sin. I hope that clarifies a few things.  

[Dead Orthodoxy]

5 hours ago, coheir said:

This nature shows up when fear for his life is introduced. And I agree I am not saying the introduction is the sin I am saying the introduction brings the sin nature out of man then is is sin.

Chapter and verse please.  Where does Scripture say specifically sin nature shows up when "fear for his life is introduced."   I have never heard such a thing.  Please educate me!

     

[Dead Orthodoxy]

10 minutes ago, coheir said:

its life, you ever had a gun put to your head or a knife pulled on you I have

 

Jesus said, "Do not fear the one who can kill the body, but fear the one who could kill the body and the soul in hell."

 

[Dead Orthodoxy]

2 hours ago, Dead Orthodoxy said:

Chapter and verse please.  Where does Scripture say specifically sin nature shows up when "fear for his life is introduced."   I have never heard such a thing.  Please educate me!

     

I am still waiting for an answer.  Please educate me in the ways of my faults.

[Marathoner]

2 hours ago, coheir said:

its life, you ever had a gun put to your head or a knife pulled on you I have

 

I understand where you're coming from, my friend. There are matters which aren't addressed directly in the scriptures, only alluded to; everything changes in that moment when the end is ever so clear.

I've been there, too.

[choir loft]

On 1/14/2023 at 7:20 AM, R. Hartono said:

Isn't God omnipotent ? Why did He keep creating billions of sinful souls under bondage of sins ? 

Why cant God create these souls sinless like Adam ? If He still create those souls of birthed babies.

Just asking.

READ GENESIS 3.

This is the story of the fall of man in the Garden of Eden.  READ IT.

In chapter 1:26 of Genesis, God created man IN HIS IMAGE.  It is the image of God that held the promise and power of immorality for Eve and Adam.

In chapter 3, despite warnings of the consequences of SIN, Eve and Adam did it anyway.

The consequence of that first SIN was death......spiritual death and physical death.  

Eve and Adam LOST the image of God.  

In Genesis chapter 4 we read that Eve and Adam gave birth to their first son - Cain.  Cain was born in the IMAGE OF HIS PARENTS, Eve and Adam.   As his parents had lost the IMAGE OF GOD so it was that Cain didn't have it either.

So it is with every generation of mankind since that time.  Every baby is born in the image of its parents.   Do you not hear people saying a newborn child looks like its mother or its father?   The child is born in the image of its parents, not God.

Because Eve and Adam SINNED and lost the image of God they'd been given there was nothing to pass forward to their children - nothing for the generations of their children to pass along either. This is the nature and the horror of SIN.  Death is now our destiny - death both spiritual and physical.

Following the loss of the image of God by Eve and Adam we do not read of it again until the New Testament.

The Son is the image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15a)

You asked, "Why did He (God) keep creating billions of sinful souls under bondage of SIN?"

The answer stares us in the face, yet we all deny it.  WE created those babies.  Have you not heard how it's done?  

WE are the ones who give authority to SIN in our lives.  Read Genesis 3 again.  We give authority in our lives to SIN every time we break God's LAW even as Eve and Adam gave their authority to satan.  So it is with every generation of mankind.

God may own the earth and all it contains, but satan has authority over all humanity BECAUSE WE GIVE IT AWAY.

Yet there are some of us who hate the bondage to SIN we have created for ourselves. 

There are some of us who wish to be free of it.....yet we cannot make ourselves free because SIN is a thing that lasts one's whole life.  The only way it can end is by the death of its host organism - by our own death.   SIN is with us and part of us.  The ONLY way to be free of it is to DIE.

We must die to be free, but dying also removes us from life.   This is the most miserable part of the whole situation.  In order to be free of the bondage of SIN we have to die - to lose the life we've been born to live. 

You asked "Isn't God omnipotent?"

Indeed He is.  Being thus omnipotent, God has devised a method by which those who are fed up with the influence of SIN in their lives can be free of it.  The solution is to obtain the IMAGE OF GOD we lost in Eden.   

The Bible says Jesus IS the IMAGE OF GOD.  

Christ, who is the image of God (2 Corinthians 4:4b)

Thus, the way to be truly forgiven is to deny SIN - to REPENT of it - and to accept Christ when He comes to us.   

As Christ can live in us (providing we REPENT of SIN and accept Him) so the IMAGE OF GOD can be restored to us and endow us with immortality.

The gift, however, isn't like the one Eve and Adam had.  The gift of immortal life in Christ is provisional - limited.   Read Romans chapters 6, 7 & 8 to find out how these provisional conditions apply.

You wrote that you were 'just asking'.

I respond by 'just writing'.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft... 

 

 

Edited February 5, 2023 by choir loft

[Dead Orthodoxy]

10 hours ago, Dead Orthodoxy said:

Chapter and verse please.  Where does Scripture say specifically sin nature shows up when "fear for his life is introduced."   I have never heard such a thing.  Please educate me!

Are you saying a person is sinless and blameless, until a person has fear?  Chapter and verse.

This conversation is getting tiresome.

[choir loft]

33 minutes ago, Dead Orthodoxy said:

Are you saying a person is sinless and blameless, until a person has fear?  Chapter and verse.

This conversation is getting tiresome.

You didn't read my post.  Please read it again.

All are condemned to death because we have inherited it (death).  We inherited death because we lost the image of God.  (Genesis 3)

We SIN because we love it. (John 3:19)  

Some of us hate the situation we find ourselves in.

READ ROMANS 6, 7 & 8.

But God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son THAT THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN HIM SHOULD NOT DIE BUT HAVE IMMORTAL LIFE (John 3:16)

The opposite is also true.  Those who DO NOT BELIEVE in Christ will DIE. "Those who do not live by the LAW will DIE by the LAW".  (Romans 2:12)

Those who accept Christ receive the image of God, which is Christ Jesus.  Thus immortality is restored (provisionally).  (Romans 6, 7 & 8)

Jesus said most people will suffer death and only a few will be saved. (Matthew 7:13)

If you consider the conversation to be tiresome consider also that there is no such thing as everlasting torment.  Hell is a myth.  There is only DEATH.  

Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; humans have no advantage over animals. Everything is meaningless. (Ecclesiastes 3:19)

The Bible nowhere suggests implies or states that immortality will be given to unrepentant SINNERS.  Death is their destiny.  

This is why Jesus said, "you must be born again - born of the spirit of God" (John 3:7)

Put that in your pipe and smoke it a while.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

 

Edited February 5, 2023 by choir loft

[Dead Orthodoxy]

11 hours ago, choir loft said:

t.  Hell is a myth.

 

11 hours ago, choir loft said:

there is no such thing as everlasting torment.

This statement transgresses the clear teaching of the NT. 

This by far, has been the most egregious post containing false teaching I have ever received here at WCF.

Ponder the verses below.  I suggest you re word this post in such a way as not to deny the existence of hell and everlasting punishment.

IF YOU DO NOT, I SHALL REPORT YOU TO THE MODERATORS.

---------

Matthew 18:8“If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire.

Matthew 25:41  “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

Matthew 3:12  His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

Is 66{24 “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms  that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched,(D) and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”
 

Jude 7  ⁷ In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

2 Peter 2:4

For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;

 

Matthew 23:33

“You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?

2 thes 1:7  This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

Matthew 13:40
“As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age.

Luke 16:24
So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

 

 

 

[Dead Orthodoxy]

1 hour ago, coheir said:

https://www.murrayledger.com/church_page/are-babies-born-sinners/article_783e77b4-a39f-11e7-8667-f70131ebb29a.html

This explains  how I understand better than I can say it.

Murray contends: Logic and common-sense dictate that the idea of “original sin” is contrary to the very nature and character of God. It would be grossly unjust and unfair of God to condemn any soul for the sins committed by another. Yet, this would be the result if the teaching of “original sin” is true. But it is not true for God is both just and fair in all His dealings with man. “He loves righteousness and justice; The earth is full of the goodness of the Lord” (Psalm 33:5).

This is the standard "Justice of God" argument made by every third baptist who ever lived.  So boring.  Baptists think they have the market on the Justice  of God argument....well they don't. 

Take for instance the J. Mark Beach argument against this:

Baptists, while protecting the Justice of God from inherited guilt, maintain these same guiltless infants can and do suffer sin’s environmental consequences or the polluting effects of sin. 

Infants and young children then are specifically created to suffer the curse of death for no sin of their own—a curse that includes disease, illness, war, genocides, murder, abortions, neglect, injury, emotional abuse,  sexual abuse, physical abuse, forced famines, infanticide, starvation, child sacrifice, etc.

This is a self- contradictory stance. For, if infants are without personal sin and guilt, then they have not merited the suffering they are made to endure. This is nothing other than unjust suffering. 

The Justice of God argument cuts both ways.  But the Baptist and American Evangelicals only apply this standard emotionally to so called "innocent infants."  They can't see wider problems if they hold to the bogus  "Justice of God" argument.

Examples from Scripture:

1)  The Genesis Flood.  All unborn, infants, toddlers, and adolescents are killed by the flood and fall under eternal condemnation, based upon the sins of their parents, and grandparents participated in.   Is God unjust?  After all, children are innocent!  It's not fair.   As Murray said, "it would be grossly unjust and unfair of God to condemn any soul for the sins committed by another."

2.  Tenth Plague:  Because of the sin of one man, all first born of the Egyptians were killed.    As Murray said, "it would be grossly unjust and unfair of God to condemn any soul for the sins committed by another."  Even the firstborn of all Israelites would judged, even though they had no part in Pharoah’s sin.  God is unjust!  It's not fair! the baptists would tell us.

3.  Children were punished for the sin of the elders or Israel in Assyrian & Babylonian captivity.  For, if infants are without personal sin and guilt, then they have not merited the suffering they are made to endure. This is nothing other than unjust suffering.  Baptists say..."God is unjust. It's not fair"  As Murray said, "it would be grossly unjust and unfair of God to condemn any soul for the sins committed by another."

4.  Because David committed murder by proxy, his son 7 day old life was taken from him.   The  judgment is particularly severe due to the fact that circumcision was performed on the eighth day,  David's child was not circumcised.

David’s baby suffered death under God’s judgment for no sin of his own.  For if David's baby is without personal sin and guilt, then his death is unjust.  It's not fair!

The way out of this conundrum:  All of humanity is born sinful as evident in God's curse to mankind.  If all are sinful, then all suffering and judgments of God are JUST and deserved.  For infants and children, either they are truly guilty by imputation or GOD IS PUNISHING THE INNOCENT.  God would then be unjust.

Only Adam is responsible for Adam's sin.  Yet, all mankind is born in a condition of non-innocence which damns us.  Actual sin committed later on life, is what we are judged by. 

Justice of God arguments should not be used by Christians.  It causes to many problems.  Murray can't see the flip side of the argument.

The remedy for original sin for paedobaptists (Lutherans, Reformed, Anglican, Methodists and the RCC) is baptism.   Of course Credobaptists (Baptists, Charismatics, Pentecostals and American Evangelicals) will have none of it.